Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (Full Version)

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JohnK -> Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 7:22:02 PM)

Searched but pretty much all of the threads about the command structure are mostly about moving troops in restricted commands....and tried to ask in another thread but never got an answer to my question.

The US has a zillion CENPAC units at game start, but doesn't need to reinforce CENPAC, it needs to reinforce SOPAC.

If there's a CENPAC ground division at, say, Suva, which is SOPAC, is there ANY penalty to that unit combat-wise or replacement-wise (The manual mentions the supplies at the base as the ONLY influence on a ground unit receiving replacements)....

Is there any point at all in spending a trillion PP converting that unit to SOPAC, or the base to CENPAC?

Again, I'm just talking about the assignment of the unit, and the assignment of the base hex; I'm not talking about the actual headquarters units and the bonuses they provide (though in the manual there's NO mention of a HQ's command needing to match the command of a ground unit for that ground unit to receive the HQ bonuses.)



PeteG662 -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 7:27:39 PM)

Thought I read somewhere about replacements being an issue if you are not close enough to the command HQ.....may be mistaken here but just my thoughts.....



PeteG662 -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 7:31:51 PM)

Saw your other post in the other thread already addressing the replacement issue.....cheers!



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 7:35:24 PM)

it wont impact the unit's "preformance"

on the replacements issue.....believe that its the proximity of the HQ that the base is assigned too that will be important.



JohnK -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 7:36:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Saw your other post in the other thread already addressing the replacement issue.....cheers!


Mr. Frag keeps talking about AIRCRAFT replacements.....

The manual goes into excruciating detail about the many requirements for aircraft replacements.

I'm attempting to get some sort of answer from somebody about GROUND units.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 7:41:09 PM)

Already replied in the other thread.

I talk about *replacements*.

There is no difference between ground and air except for how they join up with the main unit. One flies there, the other jumps on a ship.

Replacement units are created at the base where the Command HQ is located for the base that is ordering the replacements. If it is out of range, a sub-unit will be created. It becomes your problem to join up the sub unit with the parent.



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:18:17 PM)

I think that what Mr. Frag is saying, and he will correct me if I'm wrong, is that a unit that is assigned the same Command HQ AND is within range (9 hexes) will have their replacement units AUTOMATICALLY appear as part of the unit. Otherwise the replacements will appear at the same base as the Command HQ and the player will have to move it themselves.

If that's right, then what difference does the Base mean for either the Command HQ and the unit that is getting the replacement, sits upon?

Pappy



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:21:41 PM)

the unit doesnt have to be within 9 hexes of *its* HQ. the base its on only has to be within range of it's HQ.



Black Cat -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:33:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

the unit doesnt have to be within 9 hexes of *its* HQ. the base its on only has to be within range of it's HQ.


How is the term " range " defined please ?

TIA



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:33:57 PM)

OK so following that logic:
1) A SWPac land unit is on an AUS base and that AUS base is within 9 hexes of AUS HQ. This SWPac unit will have it's replacements appear directly with the unit.
Correct?

Is this in addition to my earlier statement of the unit being within it's Command HQ range but not on a base controlled by that Command HQ?

Pappy



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:34:30 PM)

not sure what you mean BC?

its nine hexes tracable on a direct path



Black Cat -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:35:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Already replied in the other thread.

I talk about *replacements*.

There is no difference between ground and air except for how they join up with the main unit. One flies there, the other jumps on a ship.

Replacement units are created at the base where the Command HQ is located for the base that is ordering the replacements. If it is out of range, a sub-unit will be created. It becomes your problem to join up the sub unit with the parent.


So if I`m reading this correctly there is no real reason to NOT ship one of the CENPAC Inf. Div. from PH down to SPAC ?

It will still be fully supplied and retain full combat power if NOT used in Combat, and if it incurs losses in combat a sub unit ( however small ?? ) will appear at CENPAC HQ at Pearl, if I read Mr. Frag correctly ?

PS: I too read the Manual on the LCU requirements and am not clear on this part.



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:35:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pappy

OK so following that logic:
1) A SWPac land unit is on an AUS base and that AUS base is within 9 hexes of AUS HQ. This SWPac unit will have it's replacements appear directly with the unit.
Correct?



Yes i believe so (going largely by memory here) the command HQ of the BASE is the determinate, not the command HQ of the unit.



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:41:30 PM)

OK that's starting to make sense. Command HQs "control" bases within there command radius for the purposes of replacements.

For other "bonus" purposes, who controls the base is not a factor.

Pappy



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:48:05 PM)

exactly. if Gary, Mike and co. had tried to directly attach replacements to the HQ's of all the various air and land units in the game....the player would be overwhelmed with a plethera of small 'replacement' sub units waiting for their parent units to fall within range of the HQ they are attached to



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:52:20 PM)

I'm not sure just how much of that problem is really addressed since the base a unit occupies still has to be within the HQ radius.



Black Cat -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 9:59:13 PM)

I guess this version of the game was too complicated to use the original and very elegant system in Pac War[&:]

On the turn after a LCU fully unloaded it was automatically changed to the HQ Command of the base it is now at, and it was then supplied from that Command.

In the Game the previous HQ saw a decrease in supply useage and the new Command saw an increase, a very accurate depiction of the actual historical practice.

PS: Very cool Banner Nik[X(]



JohnK -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 10:38:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

It will still be fully supplied and retain full combat power if NOT used in Combat, and if it incurs losses in combat a sub unit ( however small ?? ) will appear at CENPAC HQ at Pearl, if I read Mr. Frag correctly ?

PS: I too read the Manual on the LCU requirements and am not clear on this part.



I have no idea where the GROUND unit subunit replacement stuff is coming from; there's nothing about it in the manual, and I've certainly not seen in the game so far...of course, for that matter, I've never seen an air unit subunit replacement either, and I'm 21 days into a game....no offense because he's trying to be helpful but Mr. Frag keeps posting as if the air unit replacement and reinforcement rules apply to ground units, when people are mostly asking about ground units, and it's causing vast confusion.

I'm really hoping someone from 2b3 finally clears this up.

But, it appears to me, there's frankly no point to ground units to have any command HQ assigned other than the various restricted commands, or "general"....it's irrelevant if their SE Asia, SWPAC, SOPAC, CENPAC, etc.



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 10:41:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

PS: Very cool Banner Nik[X(]


Thx.......SubChaser rocks.......forget woosie carriers and Tom Cruise wannabe flyboys....Big Guns are where it's at!!!! [:D]



Nikademus -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 10:42:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pappy

I'm not sure just how much of that problem is really addressed since the base a unit occupies still has to be within the HQ radius.


Thats also why there's a supply rule to. If the base the unit is sitting at has 20000+K of supply, the game assumes that the replacements were auto directed to the location thus no need for a sub unit to be created. This too cuts down on the player being overwhelmed with dozens of little replacement sub units.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 10:50:16 PM)

I keep going into this so here is an example:

UNIT X belongs to SOPAC. It takes losses great enough to need replacements.

UNIT X is at BASE Y

BASE Y happens to belong to SWPAC, not SOPAC.

BASE Y radios up SWPAC and requests replacements for UNIT X.

SWPAC is at BASE Z

BASE Z is checked for supplies. (it has enough)

If BASE Z happens to be in range of BASE Y, the parts go there directly.

If BASE Z is NOT in range of BASE Y, UNIT X/1 is formed at BASE Z and you now need to transport UNIT X/1 to UNIT X.

If you have never seen a sub unit formed, it is simply because you have always been in range of the BASE that the Command HQ is at.

This applies equally to Air units and Ground units.

The one *extra* rule that comes into play with Air units is that you can not UPGRADE an Air unit that is outside the range of the HQ.

As you can see, the fact that UNIT X reports to SOPAC does not enter into the discussion anywhere.



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 10:54:21 PM)

Good example. i think a lot of people needed to have this type of explanation to understand what's going on.



Black Cat -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/13/2004 11:22:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I keep going into this so here is an example:




Haaaa !! I see now he says hitting the Print Out key ![:)][:)][:)]


Thanks Mr. Frag



gts2096 -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/14/2004 1:09:01 AM)

you better believe it. printed the minute i saw it........



byron13 -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/14/2004 1:47:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

PS: Very cool Banner Nik[X(]


Thx.......SubChaser rocks.......forget woosie carriers and Tom Cruise wannabe flyboys....Big Guns are where it's at!!!! [:D]


Yeah, Nik, that's a cool sub chaser. Or is a destroyer escort?



JohnK -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/14/2004 2:04:13 AM)

Ok,

So, not to be a pain, but has anyone seen a ground unit subunit replacement ever formed anywhere?



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/14/2004 2:24:17 AM)

Yes. If you take one of the USA Divisions from the US and put it on a TF before it has had a chance to "grow" to full size, a subunit will appear to "finish" the growth process. The parent unit is no longer available to accept the additions. It happened to me with the 25th USA.



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/14/2004 10:03:16 PM)

I hope I am not beating a dead horse but here goes.

The example that Mr. Frag gave above is spot on with what’s in the manual only as far as Air Unit replacement go. This is the section that pertains to Ground Unit Replacements:

Bases that have supplies that exceed double their supply requirements may use the excess over double needs to provide replacements (as long as the ground unit has the Accept Replacements selection made on its Ground Unit Information screen). Units are within supply range of the base if the supply range is 50 or greater from a base where you trace a path starting with 100 and subtracting for each hex the path moves through as follows:

• Rail/Highway: 2
• Road: S
• Trail: 25
• Cross Country: 50

If needed items are in the pool (or there are armament points ready to build them if the forces are Japanese and the Production system for Japan is turned on), then they may be added to the unit. The unit should gain at least 1 of each of the needed items (need is if TOE value is greater than the disabled + ready value of the unit and any sub units on the map). The unit may receive more than 1 of each item needed, but must pass a series of checks to do this. Each base that the unit is within supply range of may send replacements, so there is an advantage of being near lots of well-stocked bases. Sub units may never receive replacements unless it is an engineer type unit under computer control.

There is nothing in this section that says anything about the base that supply is being traced to is attached to a Command HQ. It doesn’t say that the base the Command HQ occupies must have at least 20K in supplies either. These are requirements for Air Replacements. In fact, it says nothing about any HQ relationship at all.

My question is should we infer that air and ground replacement rules share this common denominator and therefore is the game programmed to look at this requirement or does the manual reflect the current program? If it’s the latter then Mr. Frag’s example above is applicable only to Air Replacements.

Pappy



JohnK -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/15/2004 1:19:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pappy

Yes. If you take one of the USA Divisions from the US and put it on a TF before it has had a chance to "grow" to full size, a subunit will appear to "finish" the growth process. The parent unit is no longer available to accept the additions. It happened to me with the 25th USA.



You mean one of the "West Coast" divisions? Did you change it to SOPAC or CENPAC or whatever before you loaded it? So while it's on the TF a subunit appears?

My issue is the same one as you, the manual goes into specific detail on the requirements for air replacements in detail, but it discusses ground replacements seperately, and with far fewer requirments, and Mr. Frag seems absolutely confident that the air requirements also apply to ground reinforcements, something I'm not confident of whatsoever.

If I see a ground unit (not in a TF) on a base that has different HQ, and replacements for that unit show up as a subunit somewhere else, I might begin to believe him, but I've not seen that yet and nobody else has.



FirstPappy -> RE: Any penalty to a CENPAC ground unit at a SOPAC Base Hex? (7/15/2004 1:56:14 AM)

It was a SWPac commanded division that appeared on a West Coast base. As the game progresses, new units will appear already assigned to Command HQs other than West Coast.



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