Mines (Full Version)

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nikb -> Mines (6/5/2000 2:36:00 PM)

Hi all. Does anybody else seem to have trouble with mines. When I am attacking, I seem to stumble on hidden fields all the time. Q - is there any way to "see" them prior? When employing them on defence - in the majority of the cases the AI seems to find a suitable path through them - only losing marginal AFV's on the way. What is the ideal layout for mines - I tend to "block lay them in one or two areas to create a corridor. Cheers Nik [This message has been edited by nikb (edited 06-05-2000).]




Charles22 -> (6/5/2000 9:27:00 PM)

Firstly, I'm not sure which are the best at spotting mines, but probably all recon units and engineers, with engineers perhaps the best, with scouts on foot perhaps being second. Whether recon vehicles are very good is debatable, but if driven perhaps only a hex at a time, no more than two hexes a turn, may provide adequate spotting. One little trick I learned when you're pretty sure you're in mine territory, is to advance those spotters only a hex a turn, and once they're moved, have them look in all directions. It seems they only spot the direction they're looking, so the perspective can change markably as they move, and indeed looking to rear, if it were possible to overlook one, would then show up. As far as using mines myself, I love to wall off the most direct route to the frontline objective areas. I haven't made up my mind yet, whether I like foot units directly behind the mines, or if I prefer them a hex further back. On defense, make sure and change those engineers mine treatment routine, for they seem to default at "clearing" mines, and instead, toggle them to "create mines". BTW, you want to toggel the engineer's mine treatment, right in the middle of deployment, for in so doing, I will often find some of them have already created a mine or two in the hex they faced (in fact one of them had created FOUR!!!). Usually I like my engineers/minefields to protect objectives (in front of them somewhat). If a hill can be used behind, this, laden with some decent tanks so much the better. My mine density is set to one per hex (or ten in other words) and it seems to work about 50% of the time against Polish tanks, though I suspect with larger tanks it would work more reliably. Generally I like to purchase about 30-40 mines (which are actually 300-400), and when being assaulted, there are no better spent points. I look not so much at how much they fail, but rather how much their few kills make a huge difference when things are getting heated. I know someone mentioned, Larry I believe, that he uses two (20) mines per hex, and while that's probably a lot more awesome, I'm starting to be curious about bridging his approach and mine. I could bridge his idea somewhat by first purchasing a 10 mine hex, and then putting an engineer adding to it, just a hex back, so that the mined hex may have somewhere around 15 mines by the time the enemy enters it. When playing the mine game, it's fascinating to try to keep the enemy's infantry knocked silly enough to where they can't start working on the mines, or better yet, even see the mines, and still try to mow down the tanks. I suppose my first line of defense is try to mow down everything before it gets to the minefield, and failing that, the enemy has the added problem of mines, backed up by engineers with a range of one.




Larry Holt -> (6/5/2000 9:51:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by nikb: Hi all. Does anybody else seem to have trouble with mines. When I am attacking, I seem to stumble on hidden fields all the time. Q - is there any way to "see" them prior? ... What is the ideal layout for mines - I tend to "block lay them in one or two areas to create a corridor. Cheers Nik
As was mentioned, moving units one or two hexes per turn helps to spost mines. Go full movement allowance and your not going to see them. I don't know how the various armies in WWII laid mines but the US lays them in belts with five antipersonel mines in an arc in front of one antitank mines. This is for deliberate minefields. So 1 mine point would be only 2 AT mines in a 50 meter area. Not much chance that tanks are going to be hit. I do use 2 mine points per hex because of this. Mines, like all obstacles are not a wall to stop the enemy but are designed to slow them down and canalize them into areas of your choosing so that you can kill them. Obstacles should be covered by observation and fire. The exception to this is for nuisance obstacles that are designed to slow the enemy's advance and gain time (e.g. dragon's teeth on a road). I like to use dragon's teeth as the enemy (human or AI) can see them and will go somewhere else, which is what I had in mind. Mines don't have the deterence value that dragon's teeth do as they can't be seen ahead of time. Sometimes I make lanes through dragon's teeth so that enemy tanks will have to move parallel to my positions and expose their side armor. I love terrain modification through obstacles. Terrain is your biggest combat multiplier if used properly. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.




Desert Fox -> (6/5/2000 11:09:00 PM)

Personally, I lay mines very thick. 50 per hex is what I do. I usually end up spending most, if not all, of my support points to lay them. I typically lay them in an arc pattern very close to the objective hexes. This takes advantage of the AI heading directly for the flags. Depending on my force composition, I may sit back and let the AI try to get the objectives, then mop up whats left, or I defend behind the minefields with the intent that the AI never gets to the objectives. I think mines are far too powerful against tanks. Nearly every mine that goes off destroys the tank that set it off. In SP3, most mine hits were immobilizations, not outright destruction. I really don't think that if a tiger hit a mine that it would be completely destroyed. Maybe an armored car would be totally lost, but I doubt most tanks would be. I think more immobilizations would be more realistic.




Charles22 -> (6/6/2000 12:28:00 AM)

Desert Fox: What if the mine explosion blows the engine, the fuel, or the ammo? We have a new feature in this game, exposing 'bellys' of tanks. Those bellys weren't exactly the most armored part of the tank. Perhaps if ANY were, it would have been the flail type models. If you're putting in 50 mines per hex, then obviously the tanks should be getting destroyed more frequently, because they may be running over more than one mine at a time. I don't know what the optimum amount is, but 50 would seem way too high to me, while the 10 I use may be too light, but I still do nab about half the tanks. I think it's interesting given Larry's approach, that he would use 20 mines a hex, it would seem as though that he would want to spread out the effect of the enemy spotting them more, by having more. I use mines as traps or to destroy, I have little interest in it rerouting the enemy's path, which of course, given that I'm not interested in the enemy getting that far, often is totally unseen by him in the first place. My mines are close to the vest. I find it interesting, that while my mines are for destruction and Larry's for repathing, it seems as though our use of mine density does the opposite with how we place them. It would seem to me, that once an enemy sees a mine, which seems that Larry 'wants', then 10 will do as well as 20. On the other hand, 20 mines are more destructive than 10 (possibly), or at least catch more, so that you would think I'd be more in favor of using 20 for density. In my thinking to date, I'm trying to give all or most of my infantry the protection of mines, and if you only buy 300-400 mines to start, then they can't be used everywhere. If I used 20, naturally more units would be caught during their advance, however, 50% less of the territory would receive 'some' protection. Actually, I would probably prefer a double line of mines, as opposed to 20 in one hex. The enemy would be hard-pressed to make it through 2 straight hexes with mines, without being caught, as I figure it; perhaps 10-20% would get through both belts. Larry's use of mines, seems to suggest that his minefields are perhaps a line pretty far away from what he's protecting, to make sure the enemy sees them, so he'll go around it and thereby get side-shots (I have to wonder if the enemy infantry tries to diffuse mines that may be out that far). Whereas, for the most part, my mines are roughly on top of what I'm protecting, so that everything is protected, including the mines somewhat (in any given battle, the enemy is fortunate if he's diffused more than 20 mines total on me). My battle is largely frontal. It's the enemy's frontal armor against mine, with little or no hope of the enemy diffusing the mines, and thereby his inevitable surprise when he hits them, which to his frustration is backed up by various infantry units. Larry's battle might be largely long distance, whereas mine, if you can take it in the context of '39 Europe is largely fought over 20 hex distance (and MANY times 12-15 hexes). At that stage of the war, Gerry ammo is so low and ineffective (except if you dare use the 88's where everybody and their dog can see them), that you shoot half-range or have to gear you supply trucks in excess. I often will either have one supply truck, or none at all. I can't picture using dragon's teeth or barb-wire for the life of me, but if I buy another 100-200 more mines than usual, I'll see if I can manage some idea of what can be done. BTW, has anyone out there seen what the resupply rate for infantry rifles/LMG's are from ammo trucks? Yesterday I resupplied a mortar unit and though I didn't keep up with it too well, it sure seemed to replenish quickly.




Pack Rat -> (6/6/2000 1:34:00 AM)

I would like to see the artillery fire more effective againest mines and obsticals. I concentrated a huge amount of offboard fire against a small area and barely managed a breach, and I knew where they were. I didn't test engineer use of satchel charges and flame throwers so I'm not sure if they work, but I think they should. I also would like to see the amount of offboard ammo upped. I've used the "channel pattern", it's nice if you need to get your troops out. I've not tryed the arc. I also use a "box" shape. The first line to allow anti-tank fire at a distance, the second line to allow troop fire and anti-tank fire, I then connect the two front lines with mines to keep enemy units from free range to exploit any break throughs. Anyway they look like lots of boxes out in front. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat




Spartacus! -> (6/6/2000 10:05:00 AM)

When setting up a deliberate minefield, I like to place 1 (10) mine in the first three or four hex-rows closest to the enemy then a row with 2 (20), the next row with 3 (30), and the final row with 4 (40, which I've found fairly impervious to armor). I've watched combined arms forces advance quickly through the minefield only to lose their armor at the 3 and 4 mine hex-rows as the infantry retreats under fire back through the 2 and 1 mine hex-rows losing more men to the hidden threats. Talk about suppression! Rick




Pack Rat -> (6/6/2000 10:25:00 AM)

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. I was doing an arty test on destroying mines so I was playing both sides. I placed three lines of mines 10 to a hex starting on the flags and put the other two behind them. I placed 10 barbed wire in the middle row. When I started my trial all the barbed wire and mines in the middle row where visable to the opposing forces. The exact count 10 mines and 10 barbed wire could be read with the curser. The mine line in front and in back could not be seen. Why would the barbed wire and mines in the middle line show? My visablity wasn't good enough to see the entire line. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat




Desert Fox -> (6/6/2000 10:38:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: Desert Fox: What if the mine explosion blows the engine, the fuel, or the ammo? We have a new feature in this game, exposing 'bellys' of tanks. Those bellys weren't exactly the most armored part of the tank. Perhaps if ANY were, it would have been the flail type models.
While it is true that the belly of a tank is pretty unarmored, the problem is that the only way a tank can set off a mine is with its tracks. Now I am sure anti tank mines are designed to work with this in mind, and the tank would likely be destroyed. However, running over an antipersonnel mine would at best throw a track. The way kills are distributed when tanks run over mines, you would think that every one of those mines are anti tank mines. I think there should be a little less killing and more immobilization as it was in sp3. Or maybe they could just completely separate out the two classes of mines and then we decide the AT to AP ratio by laying them each individually.




Paul Vebber -> (6/6/2000 12:11:00 PM)

Placing barbed wire in mine hex makes a minefield a "known minefield" that its assumed both sides knew about. If you want the mines to stay hidden, don't place them in a barb wire hex, but behind it.




Charles22 -> (6/6/2000 8:13:00 PM)

Another reason why you may be seeing barbed-wire, but not mines, if they were in separate hexes, is because barbed-wire is above ground and therefore easier to see, while mines are at surface level. Is there such a thing, back in WWII, as magnetic land mines, so that tanks didn't have to put there weight on them to activate them? From what little I know of mines, there are some mines which are weight sensitive, where no matter how much a soldier would stomp on them, they wouldn't go off, such would be AT mines.




Larry Holt -> (6/6/2000 8:57:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Desert Fox: While it is true that the belly of a tank is pretty unarmored, the problem is that the only way a tank can set off a mine is with its tracks.
Some mines had tilt rod fuzes. This is a rod about 1/4" diameter and 2 feet tall. If it is pushed over (say by a vehicle hull), BOOM. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.




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