The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (Full Version)

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JohnK -> The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 7:45:53 PM)

Beating an already badly-bruised horse here...

But what gives with it?

Looked at US Army early-game arrival times for unrestricted commands and posted in the OOB thread on it....

I really can't see any of them as "Abstractions" splitting the difference between small units not in the game or something..

The arrival times of these, and the NZ stuff and the Marines I posted on earlier, seem like either sloppy research, adopting a bad OOB from Pac War or some other earlier game and not reviewing it, or a deliberate attempt to give the Allies a lot more INF early in the game they actually had as some sort of play balance thing (which certainly seems unecessary.)

Also a bit mystified why I'm the only person that seems to be noticing it; I mean, have any other Allied players playing a 1941 scenario looked at the embarassment of riches of INF units early in the game and sort of scratched their heads wondering "gee, why were the Allies panicking at all?" and then taken the step of looking at the historical arrival times?

And I'm not even taking into account the reality that some divisions shipped "overseas" actually weren't ready for combat at all, and spent LONG periods, upwards of a year in some cases, training in areas that became "rear" areas like Hawaii and New Caledonia before finally seeing their first combat in 1943.



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:21:34 PM)

I don't know John K,

I am playing allies in Scen 15 right now, and to be honest even with the Units you are saying are early, and I like to see it done historically, the Japanese can invade almost anywhere they want whenever they wish including the west coast. It is Almost Feb. 1942 and I can not defend Hawaii, the west coast and Alaska with what I have. In real life Japan was never going to invade the West Coast early, since the Europe First idea would have gone out the window with Japanese Divisions attacking LA. This is not the case in WitP. A human JP Player could successfully abort the attacks on PI, Malaysia etc. all and push for Seattle, San Francisco, L.A. and San Diego and win quickly. Take a look at what forces are at these locations through January of 1942. I think this is the reason why you get the Infantry Units early.


UB



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:23:12 PM)

I really want to see someone try to invade the West Coast [:)]



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:29:17 PM)

Nik,

Why do you say that? What do you think would stop them? If you stopped the invasions of Dec. 7-10th and sent all of those forces including the carriers and such you could, I think take out all of the west coast cities. Why do you think it couldn't happen? The Forces from Pearl Harbor would be easier to kill IMO on the open sea than in PH attack. YOU land 100K forces in San Fran and you will take it. If it is the CD defenses that worry you, so far in my game versus the AI, not one of my many CD defense units have sunk ONE enemy vessel. I believe early on they are just not that effective.
UB



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:34:01 PM)

Several reasons.

1. Distance

2. Distance

3. Distance.

As long as the Allied player doesn't strip the west coast of all it's protections. (and that will be hard to do with the PP's in place) the Japanese will require divisional strength units to attempt this.

You only have so many divisions, the more for the West coast, the less for the SRA (your primary target and bread basket).

But forget all that. Its all about the distance. You'll need an incredible amount of fuel just to get there and maintain station much less maintain a presence. This isn't PacWar either with week long turns. It takes a LONG time to transit such a distance. i'm sure a clever player can plan ahead and have alot of tankers on station...but your still talking mass fuel expenditures.

As is said. I"d really like to see someone try this.... [:)]



Xargun -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:41:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Several reasons.

1. Distance

2. Distance

3. Distance.

As long as the Allied player doesn't strip the west coast of all it's protections. (and that will be hard to do with the PP's in place) the Japanese will require divisional strength units to attempt this.

You only have so many divisions, the more for the West coast, the less for the SRA (your primary target and bread basket).

But forget all that. Its all about the distance. You'll need an incredible amount of fuel just to get there and maintain station much less maintain a presence. This isn't PacWar either with week long turns. It takes a LONG time to transit such a distance. i'm sure a clever player can plan ahead and have alot of tankers on station...but your still talking mass fuel expenditures.

As is said. I"d really like to see someone try this.... [:)]


I don't think its a matter of fuel.. In my PBEM I have a plenthora of fuel and could invade the west coast if I wanted to... All I need is enough fuel to get there - any west coast base will have a HUGE stockpile of supplies and fuel for me to gorge my units on after I take it... But there are a few problems...

1. It is very far away - whatever units you take you have to remember that if you need reinforcements they are at least a month away (at best speed).

2. You would need several divisions to even attempt to take any west coast base with reliability. Where are you going to FIND an extra 2-3 divisions ? The only place with extra is Kwangtung or China and you don't have the 3300 PPs per division to free them up... The only other place is from he PI invasion force - but I'm not sure if they even have that many divisions - at least not in division form.

3. You land even a single jap soldier on the west coast and the US gets free divisions (like the japs do when allies get to close to Indo-china) AND all air and land units are given a 6 MONTH bonus to their arrival time.. So, not only do they get free units, but the next turn will probably have a couple dozen units showing up all over the place from he 6 month bonus...

4. Anyting you send there will simply be killed fairly quickly due to the allied bonuses gained if japanese troops land on the west coast... Every land unit you send is on a suicide mission.. TO hurt the west coast, you are much better off using LR subs and a massive CV strike.. anything else is not worth it.. Well perhaps a HUGE bombardment TF of fast BBs and CAs

Xargun



Cap Mandrake -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:44:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Nik,

Why do you say that? What do you think would stop them? If you stopped the invasions of Dec. 7-10th and sent all of those forces including the carriers and such you could, I think take out all of the west coast cities. Why do you think it couldn't happen? The Forces from Pearl Harbor would be easier to kill IMO on the open sea than in PH attack. YOU land 100K forces in San Fran and you will take it. If it is the CD defenses that worry you, so far in my game versus the AI, not one of my many CD defense units have sunk ONE enemy vessel. I believe early on they are just not that effective.
UB


I would say its the logistal cost and the logistical tail that would kill that idea. Either Pearl Harbour would have to be reduced and captured first or the Japanese player could work down Alaska and the Canadian coast. Lets say he was able to capture 3 or 4 Alaskan and Canadian ports and then Seattle. Now the Allied player could start to pound him with steadily improving crew quality. It would consume massive resources for the Japanese and divert attention from the important goal of securing oil in the Far East.



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:46:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

[
I don't think its a matter of fuel.. In my PBEM I have a plenthora of fuel and could invade the west coast if I wanted to... All I need is enough fuel to get there - any west coast base will have a HUGE stockpile of supplies and fuel for me to gorge my units on after I take it... But there are a few problems...



Ayup. You have fuel, but its very far away and you will need to do alot of refueling. Didn't mean that Japan would "run out" of fuel...she had a two year reserve after all. I'm just saying it would be VERY expensive.

"gorge"? lol. Assuming you can take the objective, then hold it.

quote:



2. You would need several divisions to even attempt to take any west coast base with reliability. Where are you going to FIND an extra 2-3 divisions ? Xargun


Your only source are those divisions earmarked for the PI's, Malaya and Burma. (ouch)



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:47:12 PM)

dont forget wear and tear on your ships.... [:)]

any damaged vessels will be in a hard way. Japan carriers only have so much av-gas points



Bradley7735 -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 8:48:04 PM)

Don't forget about the little rule that when Japan lands on North America, all US LCU's reduce their arrival time by 180 days. I think about 3 or 4 divisions worth of troops would arrive in SF on the day after Japan lands one guy east of Juneau. (I can't remember where in NA the rule kicks in. Obviously, not for Kiska, but maybe for Anchorage and all ports east)



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 9:00:02 PM)

Ok, I see the logistical problems, I didn't know about eh LCU bonus. But I was just trying to forward a theory on why the Allied player gets the early LCU's. As for invading and coming up with extra Divisions. I did say forgo the Normal SRA attacks and put everything on a West coast attack. Even with eh extra divisions Taking and holding San Fran would hurt eh Allies very badly. Remember once you take a Production facility it is Halved in output. When they take it back it gets halved again and cannot, for the allies be rebuilt. How would you like to reduce the West coast production centers by 75%?

UB



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 9:07:36 PM)

bulk of US prod is located at "East coast"

seriously damaging US prod would require multple cities being taken. I just dont see it happening.

even if it did...what long term gain for Japan? what cond will her fleet be in? how much supply and fuel spent? what of the LCU's transported?

anyone want to try? i'll be the allied gunei pig [:D]



Xargun -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 9:11:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Ok, I see the logistical problems, I didn't know about eh LCU bonus. But I was just trying to forward a theory on why the Allied player gets the early LCU's. As for invading and coming up with extra Divisions. I did say forgo the Normal SRA attacks and put everything on a West coast attack. Even with eh extra divisions Taking and holding San Fran would hurt eh Allies very badly. Remember once you take a Production facility it is Halved in output. When they take it back it gets halved again and cannot, for the allies be rebuilt. How would you like to reduce the West coast production centers by 75%?

UB


The loss of some HI will affect the Allies but not very much for 2 reasons..

1. The Allies have more HI (on map) than they can run anyways - not enough oil once the DEI is taken.

2. Most of the allied production is off map so you cannot really hurt their production.

But, for the sake of argument you take a west coast base with those units.. Now what ? You have no hope of holding it permanently and trying to get all those ships back home through the allied CV TFs waiting for you, the sub, and the dozens of SC TFs along your path will be difficult... AND while you are doing this, you are not capturing any resources or oil in the SRA or DEI... By the time you get those units home (if you manage) and they rest and recup it will be Feb 42 and you have 3 months left of oil at this point.. You better be very quick (and lucky) in taking the SRA and DEI or you are done... Matter of fact you are just done... There is no way you can take Malaya, PI AND the DEI in 3 months.... Game over...

Xargun



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 9:13:57 PM)

reacting to events off Tarawa and Rabaul was bad enough....the west coast?

aieeeee [;)]



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 9:23:07 PM)

Well the Benefit for Japan would be to take the US out of the war. IF you capture the 4 US Ports which I can see happening with the starting fort value and quantity and quality of troops on the West Coast. It would give Japan a very large resource bonus; you have eliminated a bunch of HQ groups, as well as the entrance points for many units. None of the CentPac, SWPAC, SOPAC, or NorPAC produces any supply. You have just cut them off from all supply except from Australia and India. I see it as doing the inverse of the original plan. I, again, must reiterate I am not suggesting that this is a tactic I would use, or think you should use. I like to keep it semi historical. The Japanese would not have invaded the US but I was thinking that this may have been a consideration when they gave the Allies the Inf. Battalions early.

UB



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 9:36:05 PM)

you cant take all four US ports, much less hold them [:)]

wanna try?



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:20:39 PM)

Do I get to Use teh Editor first ? [:D] As i said I was just throwign out a theory on why the Inf units show up early and big.



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:23:05 PM)

awwww.......

Noone wants to visit sunny California??? [8D]



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:26:43 PM)

Hey Nik, I am not going to charge in there with a bunch of grapes or a Mango. I mean if I had a basket of Cherries or even a Banana, it would be a different story.

BTW I can't find in the manual anywhere that LCU's get moved up if you land anywhere. I found that if you get within 15 hexes of the Home Islands JP get Kamikazes but that is all.
UB



vonmoltke -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:33:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Hey Nik, I am not going to charge in there with a bunch of grapes or a Mango. I mean if I had a basket of Cherries or even a Banana, it would be a different story.

BTW I can't find in the manual anywhere that LCU's get moved up if you land anywhere. I found that if you get within 15 hexes of the Home Islands JP get Kamikazes but that is all.
UB

Is there a time limit on that or will the Sons of Nippon start crashing my ships already? [X(]



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:38:43 PM)

Page 137 7.3.2.2 Ohka Bombs and KamiKazes: ...Kamikazes are activated if the allies own a base within 15 hexes (traced by sea only) of either Tokyo, Takao,or Saigon. However, these will never activate before Jan. 1, 1944.


UB



vonmoltke -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:41:11 PM)

Oh good. Two years to go then. :)



WhoCares -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:53:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck
...
BTW I can't find in the manual anywhere that LCU's get moved up if you land anywhere. I found that if you get within 15 hexes of the Home Islands JP get Kamikazes but that is all.
UB


It's chapter 8.3.2 Japanese Movement, page 149 (manual) or 152 (pdf)



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 10:56:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleBuck

Hey Nik, I am not going to charge in there with a bunch of grapes or a Mango. I mean if I had a basket of Cherries or even a Banana, it would be a different story.


no bananas allowed....



UncleBuck -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 11:01:06 PM)

Ok thanks. I read that but I must not have retained it :) Well that kinda puts a few Longlance into my theory huh?

UB



timtom -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/20/2004 11:57:57 PM)

There's an interesting article over on CombinedFleet discussing the problems the IJN would face in invading Hawaii. Many of the author's finding are pertinant to this debate, me thinks.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm



Jim D Burns -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/21/2004 12:03:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

you cant take all four US ports, much less hold them [:)]

wanna try?


All 4 no, but L.A. and S.F. start with a little over 100 assault value each, these might be captured given a sufficient commitment of forces. If (a big if I know) a Japanese player could take both of these locations, the combined recourses and HI might produce enough supply to keep your armies fed. If so, you could put a major dent in the Allied war effort, possibly delaying the shift of the war initiative for 6 or more months, depending on how long it took to drive out the Japanese from the U.S. soil.

The real question then lies with whether or not Japan would have sufficient forces to take the SRA in a timely fashion. Currently most Japanese players seem to be ahead of the historical timeline by about 3-6 months in securing these resource areas, so perhaps a few less divisions wouldn't prevent an historical capture of the critical areas.

My above example requires that both L.A. and S.F. be taken, since L.A. lacks sufficient recourses to feed the HI and S.F. lacks sufficient oil. Both sites combined potential production would produce about 500 or more supplies a day if not damaged too severely upon capture. There'd also be enough fuel produced to keep a sizable fleet around to provide air support and bombard coastal allied units.

Jim



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/21/2004 12:07:32 AM)

Read Page 152 (adobe reader page number not the manual page number) in the manual e-book edition. I would not be worrying about the Japanese invading.



Jim D Burns -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/21/2004 12:15:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

Read Page 152 (adobe reader page number not the manual page number) in the manual e-book edition. I would not be worrying about the Japanese invading.



Hmm I wonder if LCU's aboard ships would trigger this? If so then it is a mute point, no one would risk the invasion since there'd be no chance of gaining even a small foothold initially.

Jim



Nikademus -> RE: The insanely early Allied INF arrival times.... (7/21/2004 12:18:24 AM)

Keep in mind the US player will see you coming in plenty of time. I think even a two base objective to be marginal, and the Allied player can also shift forces to the more important cities.

The assault values may be lower than a multi-IJA div attack, however there are two more factors to consider.

1) super long transit time will increase fatigue of the attackers and lack of preperation will cause much disablement

2) CD units waiting for the attacker.

Still waiting for a taker...... I'll be Allied [:D]



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