AI a little on the stupid side (Full Version)

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MarioF -> AI a little on the stupid side (7/29/2004 9:21:46 PM)

Playing Campaign 1944, as Japan. I have over 300 A/C on Truk.
The Allied AI keeps sending weak or unescorted AK and AP TF's within 2-4 hexes of my base. Needless to say, I'm pounding the crap out of them. Their needs to be some way for the AI to fear Air zones, so they don't keep sending ships on suicide missions.

By the way, This is still the best simulation ever!!!!!!!



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/29/2004 9:24:13 PM)

What is your difficulty level at? If it is set a historical you should know that is just a testing/newbie easy level, and you should play all real games at least at hard.



Captain Cruft -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/29/2004 10:00:16 PM)

The difficulty level won't change this, it's a hard-coded (mis)behaviour that goes back to the UV days. I believe the developers have an intent to improve the AI in future patches.



DrewMatrix -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/29/2004 10:00:22 PM)

quote:

The Allied AI keeps sending weak or unescorted AK and AP TF's within 2-4 hexes of my base.


I suspect that is not a sign of generalized weakness in the AI but a sign of one specific weakness (which hopefully The Management can fix in some future patch.

When sending TFs long distance it tends to send then straight through, even if there are IJ bases in the middle.

When (as the Allies) I send TFs from SF to Brisbane it wants to route them right past IJN bases on the Marianas and I have to manually set a midpoint correction. I bet the AI is sending routine convoys from SF to somewhere in the SE corner of the map and making the same mistake.



MarioF -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/29/2004 10:07:20 PM)

quote:



Your right, The Convoys are heading from San Fran to Hollandia, Biak, and Madang and vice versa.

Hope they fix it in a patch.



barbarrossa -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 12:19:17 AM)

I wonder if the AI can be programmed with waypoints to avoid enemy bases. But that might be a tall order.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 12:34:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarioF

Playing Campaign 1944, as Japan. I have over 300 A/C on Truk.
The Allied AI keeps sending weak or unescorted AK and AP TF's within 2-4 hexes of my base. Needless to say, I'm pounding the crap out of them. Their needs to be some way for the AI to fear Air zones, so they don't keep sending ships on suicide missions.

By the way, This is still the best simulation ever!!!!!!!


More "Death Spiral" stuff. AI engaged in stubborn suicidal strategies with no stop-loss sanity checks.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 12:37:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarrossa

I wonder if the AI can be programmed with waypoints to avoid enemy bases. But that might be a tall order.


That one would probably not be too hard if the AI is coded generally like I think it might be coded. And TF path creation may not even be a part of the AI code at all, since it creates your TF's path every time you give it a destination. It's probably just a mod to the subroutine that creates the path.

But remember with AI stuff, every little additional increment of "intelligence" increases the turn resolution execution time.



Mr.Frag -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 12:50:47 AM)

Second patch will start to show AI changes

NOTE I DO NOT SAY IMPROVEMENTS

When changing things with AI, you have the joy of never really knowing whether the change was good or bad for a couple hundred turns. Always understand that aspect of AI programming. [;)]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 1:06:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Second patch will start to show AI changes

NOTE I DO NOT SAY IMPROVEMENTS

When changing things with AI, you have the joy of never really knowing whether the change was good or bad for a couple hundred turns. Always understand that aspect of AI programming. [;)]


The "Law of Unintened Consequences"? Kind of like all government social engineering legislation.....



DrewMatrix -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 1:14:29 AM)

quote:

Second patch will start to show AI changes

NOTE I DO NOT SAY IMPROVEMENTS


Hmm, not "improvments". OK. What is the word I am looking for?

Dateline Toronto:

Mr. Frag reported today that the AI is beginning to mutate. Stay tuned to this station for further developments.

(This is exciting. I can hardly wait to see the next chapter next Saturday at the Matinee)[:)]



hithere -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 1:19:40 AM)

or
headline:
Mr. Frag said "Improvments in the AI in the second patch will not start with AI changes!!"



FirstPappy -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:38:45 AM)

Headline in the Enquirer:

Mr. Frag said the AI will be greatly improved in the next patch.



siRkid -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:47:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarioF

Playing Campaign 1944, as Japan. I have over 300 A/C on Truk.
The Allied AI keeps sending weak or unescorted AK and AP TF's within 2-4 hexes of my base. Needless to say, I'm pounding the crap out of them. Their needs to be some way for the AI to fear Air zones, so they don't keep sending ships on suicide missions.

By the way, This is still the best simulation ever!!!!!!!


If you have a save that repeates the problem, send it to me with step-by-step instructions on how to repeat/see the problem.

sirkid@cfl.rr.com



Grotius -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 5:49:22 AM)

Headline in the Globe:

Sentient wargame AI seizes control of Internet



DrewMatrix -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 5:54:30 AM)

Headline from the Sun:

AI caught by our photographers in patch. See page 3!



DrewMatrix -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 5:55:46 AM)

Headline from People Magazine

Mr. Frag and AI call it off. "I need my space" sobs AI.



Platoonist -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 6:02:06 AM)

Headline from Daily Variety

AI pans Spielberg movie. "They call me stupid?"

[img]http://www.sineport.com/poster/2001/ai.jpg[/img]



DrewMatrix -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 6:26:24 AM)

J Lo Exclusive!

"I admit it! I broke up the relationship between Mr. Frag and the AI," J Lo claimed, sobbing that she had no choice since the patch wasn't out and she couldn't play the 8 December 1941 Scenario and so she was sort of bored.



von Murrin -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 6:28:26 AM)

ROFL!!!

You guys kill me.[:D]

Oh, and it would be far more appropriate to have J Lo getting confused and annoyed with the concept of the left-click.[:'(]



DrewMatrix -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 6:33:26 AM)

quote:

it would be far more appropriate to have J Lo getting confused and annoyed with the concept of the left-click



J Lo Rallys Hollywood Liberal Elite in "Snappy" Fund raiser.

"I intend to call it "Left-Click" announces J Lo (pictures of J Lo on page 3)




Mike Scholl -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 8:24:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarrossa

I wonder if the AI can be programmed with waypoints to avoid enemy bases. But that might be a tall order.


Actually, if the AI had just been coded to go south or north before going east or west
much of this nonsense would have been avoided. Convoys sailing from San Francisco
Typically sail out to Hawaii and farther before "jogging" south to the SW Pac..., if they
went south first, then "jogged' west, much of this would be avoided.

The AI seems almost purposly coded to go "in harms way" whenever possibile---the opposite of what it should be doing.



JohnK -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 3:56:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid


If you have a save that repeates the problem, send it to me with step-by-step instructions on how to repeat/see the problem.




This is been the most glaring AI problem since UV, mentioned by many people (AI sending small unescorted or escorted by 1-2 PCs or MSWs convoys of APs/AKs repeatedly, on an almost daily basis, into dense enemy LBA) I'm sort of astonished that a save from someone is needed to "see" the problem.

And in terms of the issue of fixing it may cause other problems, frankly, I don't see how; the worst possible side effect of fixing this problem is for the AI to simply stop supplying its forward bases at all.

That actually would still be an improvement of the AI over the current situation, as unless a human playing against the computer takes his LBA off naval attack, the AI as an opponent actually does worse losing 3-5 APs/AKs a turn than if it lost none but none of its forward bases got supply.



Mr.Frag -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:01:11 PM)

quote:

This is been the most glaring AI problem since UV, mentioned by many people (AI sending small unescorted or escorted by 1-2 PCs or MSWs convoys of APs/AKs repeatedly, on an almost daily basis, into dense enemy LBA) I'm sort of astonished that a save from someone is needed to "see" the problem.


John ...


In order for a programmer to go in and screw with the internals, a save showing the exact problem is required. With that save, he can quickly make a change and see if the change actaully did what it was supposed to.

If you want to complain, you need to save. If on the other hand you simply want to whine then you don't need saves. The choice of being part of the solution or part of the problem is entirely up to you guys.

The fewer saves that Kid collects, the less likely that *your* specific AI issue gets addressed.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:10:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

This is been the most glaring AI problem since UV, mentioned by many people (AI sending small unescorted or escorted by 1-2 PCs or MSWs convoys of APs/AKs repeatedly, on an almost daily basis, into dense enemy LBA) I'm sort of astonished that a save from someone is needed to "see" the problem.


John ...


In order for a programmer to go in and screw with the internals, a save showing the exact problem is required. With that save, he can quickly make a change and see if the change actaully did what it was supposed to.

If you want to complain, you need to save. If on the other hand you simply want to whine then you don't need saves. The choice of being part of the solution or part of the problem is entirely up to you guys.

The fewer saves that Kid collects, the less likely that *your* specific AI issue gets addressed.


The problems with these kinds of "bugs" are they are not like traps, or getting a corrupted unit showing up or disappearing, or something that is particular to a specific turn. These AI problems are encountered over a series a 20, 30, 60 turns and are as variable and random as the rest of the game. It is a "trend" bug, not reproducable by one save file and is a widespread trend across the whole game game for both sides in all scenarios. A "save" file is not needed or even particularly useful in this instance. We have a situation of computer controlled transport TF's all over the map, blindly going into heavy concentrations of enemy anti-ship aircraft, in ALL scenarios, at ALL times in the game, for BOTH sides. Save files aren't going to help at all with that. The situation is easily reproduced...just play any game.

However some of these AI "death spirals" are particularly noticeable. The Japanese AI Rabaul Death Spiral has been widely reported and I thought the originitor of that one over a month ago sent you guys the series of actions he took over the course of 20 or so turns to generate it. I was similar to your Mandalay thing back before the game was released, only this one is a sea base problem. Not sure its a "real" bug though, since its one of those "outside the box" types of things Mogami and others have generally warned against doing if you want the AI to play a useful game.



JohnK -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:15:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Actually, if the AI had just been coded to go south or north before going east or west
much of this nonsense would have been avoided. Convoys sailing from San Francisco
Typically sail out to Hawaii and farther before "jogging" south to the SW Pac..., if they
went south first, then "jogged' west, much of this would be avoided.

The AI seems almost purposly coded to go "in harms way" whenever possibile---the opposite of what it should be doing.


Yeah, don't quite get how that got through Beta (I applied, never heard anything myself)....

A great deal of effort appears to have been expended coding the Auto convoy system, which unfortunately ended up being useless, particularly for the Allies as you can't have any important base as part of the system other than PH; the system seems to take almost malicious glee in choosing the route that moves as close as possible to the Japanese in the Marshalls for all convoys from the US to Australia, Noumea, etc even when a path of the same hexlength or a couple more hexes would completely avoid all enemy bases by a huge margin.

Though I remember reading most of the beta players had turned Auto Convoy off, guess that should have been a sign something was wrong.

Don't quite get how hardcoding a safe path for the allies for US to Australia or Nomea autoconvoy, at least as a start to fixing the problems, wasn't in the first release or even this patch.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:24:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Actually, if the AI had just been coded to go south or north before going east or west
much of this nonsense would have been avoided. Convoys sailing from San Francisco
Typically sail out to Hawaii and farther before "jogging" south to the SW Pac..., if they
went south first, then "jogged' west, much of this would be avoided.

The AI seems almost purposly coded to go "in harms way" whenever possibile---the opposite of what it should be doing.


Yeah, don't quite get how that got through Beta (I applied, never heard anything myself)....

A great deal of effort appears to have been expended coding the Auto convoy system, which unfortunately ended up being useless, particularly for the Allies as you can't have any important base as part of the system other than PH; the system seems to take almost malicious glee in choosing the route that moves as close as possible to the Japanese in the Marshalls for all convoys from the US to Australia, Noumea, etc even when a path of the same hexlength or a couple more hexes would completely avoid all enemy bases by a huge margin.

Though I remember reading most of the beta players had turned Auto Convoy off, guess that should have been a sign something was wrong.

Don't quite get how hardcoding a safe path for the allies for US to Australia or Nomea autoconvoy, at least as a start to fixing the problems, wasn't in the first release or even this patch.



This really isn't an "AI" problem, but with the subroutine that creates the paths for the TF's, auto-convoy, computer-controlled or not. Take any save file from Scenario #15 that is a couple of months or so into the game. Play as the Japanese. Get Tarawa to size 4 and put Avaiation support there. Then transfer a A6M2 and two G3M or G4M units and give them Naval attack orders. Now save and reload as the Allied player. Recon Tarawa or do something so you know the system knows there is an airwing there. Form a TF in San Francisco and set it's destination for Brisbane. Look at the path. It goes right by that airwing on Tarawa!!!! That's NOT an AI problem per se, but a bug in the pathing subroutine. The pathing subroutine for auto-convoy at least, simply MUST be able to use intelligent waypoints that plot around known enemy air zones of control. At the VERY LEAST repath the SF to OZ auto-generated tracks to go deep to the south, then dogleg west.

And speaking from experience in desgining thing like reservation systems for the Transportation Industry, BY FAR the most complex subroutines in that software are the "best path" algorithms, espeically for bus companies like Greyhound. Lots of very high level mathematics using a lot of differential equations and regressions and such. This kind of stuff, if put into a single, "intelligent" routine vs usage of hardcoded paths, can be a really buggar to fix...



Mr.Frag -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:28:38 PM)

If you actually *ran* that scenario, you would see that the TF would divert around the base with the high Air Bal number. It will not show the turn you actually gave the order as the path is updated as the turn runs.

Look at the path AFTER the turn. You'll notice some really strange zigzags in it. This is the AI stepping in and trying to route around danger. The ability to do this is based on the level of intel available. The more the intel, the higher the safety factor.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:28:58 PM)

I thought I read somewhere, maybe it is the manual, that this whole auto-convey feature was for behind line operations. Going from SF to OZ a few months into the game is not behind the lines. I think this should be fixed what you guys are mentioning as issues, but it is sometimes hard to put a square peg in a round hole. Just my opinion.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: AI a little on the stupid side (7/30/2004 4:37:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

If you actually *ran* that scenario, you would see that the TF would divert around the base with the high Air Bal number. It will not show the turn you actually gave the order as the path is updated as the turn runs.

Look at the path AFTER the turn. You'll notice some really strange zigzags in it. This is the AI stepping in and trying to route around danger. The ability to do this is based on the level of intel available. The more the intel, the higher the safety factor.



That may be the problem with this chronic computer AI thing with the auto-convoys or the computer player AI sending countless small transport TF's deep into enemy zones of control, then. Maybe the computer player isn't reconning and then using the results. How else do you explain the games in late 1944 having the Allied AI send unescorted TF's with 3 or 4 hexes of the Japanese home islands trying to resupply the PI as reported two days ago in this forum?



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