Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades (Full Version)

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Warspite** -> Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades (7/30/2004 8:01:52 PM)
It does not look like anything was done to the upgrade paths in this patch from the text file. If not does 2by3 plan on implementing any changes to the paths requested by many people on this forum?

tsimmonds -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (7/30/2004 8:11:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Warspite** It does not look like anything was done to the upgrade paths in this patch from the text file. If not does 2by3 plan on implementing any changes to the paths requested by many people on this forum? I remember reading that the first patch was mainly going to be a bug hunt so they could get it out quickly. The OOB mods were what was ready when they got the known bugs stomped. It's a pretty story anyway....[;)]

Warspite** -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 3:37:45 AM)
I know its a bug patch, but what I'm concerned about is a statement on the forum (I can't remember where now, I'm getting old[:D]) that indicated the creators were none to willing to change the upgrade paths. I just wnated a confirmation yes or no on a future patch for changing the paths. If yes, great I'll wait before starting any new email games. If no, a shame since so many want the change, I'll just have to hunker down and finish the scenario changes I was playing with.

TheElf -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:27:28 AM)
Warspite, Though relief in the form of OOB patches or official Scenarios may never be a reality, there is already a grassroots movement afoot that is looking at various ways around the design of WitP through the editor. I am sure there are many people out there whom have already played with the editor and created some "personal" scenarios. But the closest anyone who wants freedom or lets say options in regards to upgrade paths for the time being, will be Lemurs Scenario 26. There are several posts detailing the vast number of additions, mods, and options added to the original Scen 15. Too many in fact to detail here. I recommend looking it up on Spooky's site. Right now it is based in the old v1.0 WitP, but I think Lemurs will be getting around to updating it to v1.21 standards eventually. At the very least though I would think that Mike will have his "unofficial" Scenario done long before Matrix/2x3 does. If you have been haunting these forums in the right places you might have seen some of the threads that present examples of how Lemurs comes to his decisions on things such as the correct Maneuver rating for the Fairey Firefly. That kind of reason should provide you a piece of mind with regard to whether he knows what he is doing. I for one fully support his work and have been pushing it on everyone I find who asks the same sort of questions you are. Coincidentally, I am in the process of creating my own scenario that takes Lemurs work a step further in the area of Upgrade paths. Unfortunately it won't be ready for some time as I am moving across country in a few days and haven't the time to complete it until I am settled. Basically it makes the upgrade paths for Army and Navy Fighters more linear based on arrival dates, thus you nearly have complete control over what unit upgrades and what units doesn't. It is possible that Lemurs may take the extra step in adding this option to his Scen 26 and creating as he has already offered to incorporate some of my ideas into a scenario of his. Regardless there is hope, and as long as you make it clear in the Opponents wanted thread, I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to take a shot at one of these scenarios in a PBEM.

Drongo -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:41:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Warspite** I know its a bug patch, but what I'm concerned about is a statement on the forum (I can't remember where now, I'm getting old[:D]) that indicated the creators were none to willing to change the upgrade paths. I just wnated a confirmation yes or no on a future patch for changing the paths. If yes, great I'll wait before starting any new email games. If no, a shame since so many want the change, I'll just have to hunker down and finish the scenario changes I was playing with. Only the designers can give you the final answer but I have seen nothing in the dev forum to indicate that a major revamp of upgrade paths are being considered for the next patch. Any upgrade path changes that do occur will most likely only take the form of correcting obvious OOB errors (per the OOB thread) as opposed to the design philosophy itself [:)].

Xargun -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:47:04 AM)
Its probably not possible, but since we can change history on everything else, I would love an open-ended option of upgrades. A fighter has to stay a fighter, but a A6M2 can upgrade to an A6M3 if you wanted and so on... Xargun

Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 11:03:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Xargun Its probably not possible, but since we can change history on everything else, I would love an open-ended option of upgrades. A fighter has to stay a fighter, but a A6M2 can upgrade to an A6M3 if you wanted and so on... Xargun I agree - the lack of this open-ended plane upgrade is for me the biggest WITP design mistake. Right now, I do not have any WITP game running because of this ... I hope it is going to be corrected in a forthcoming patch otherwise my WITP playing time is going to be very short [:(]

2ndACR -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 11:08:59 AM)
I miss Gary's BTR upgrade method. I like it much better. Makes the expense of spending so much time on production so worth it.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 11:45:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Xargun Its probably not possible, but since we can change history on everything else, I would love an open-ended option of upgrades. A fighter has to stay a fighter, but a A6M2 can upgrade to an A6M3 if you wanted and so on... Xargun I understand not wanting the historical feel of the game to be altered by every Allied fighter group in 1942 being equipped with P-40s, but would like a limited upgrade ability. As it is now I have checked out which Nate groups upgrade to Tony’s or Tojo’s and have included that in planning… another admin task. I would like the ability to upgrade either a limited amount of groups or have to use points like when transferring assets between regions (China, Burma, etc). Limit my choices, but let me make them.

2Stepper -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 1:16:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Spooky I agree - the lack of this open-ended plane upgrade is for me the biggest WITP design mistake. Right now, I do not have any WITP game running because of this ... I hope it is going to be corrected in a forthcoming patch otherwise my WITP playing time is going to be very short [:(] Nah, I disagree with you that it's a mistake Spooky... From the outset, the intent was to build a wargame that simulated history. Hence them making the upgrade routes, etc, all historical. Now if we really wanted to get into adjustments, I suppose it would have been interesting to make a NON-historical option that sort of "shunted" the upgrade paths to a more linear approach... A6M2-M3-M5-M8... things like that... That would have been a game setting option. Still... We gots history to play out here. [8D] I don't mind how the paths are setup in the least... Once they get the bugs stomped, etc, and the OOB's have been adjusted some, the "mod'er" community will take hold and we'll see the game morph into all manner of fun stuff in the upcoming couple of years. I for one am in no hurry right now. [8D] Just my .02 cents.. [:)]

Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 1:50:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2Stepper Nah, I disagree with you that it's a mistake Spooky... From the outset, the intent was to build a wargame that simulated history. Hence them making the upgrade routes, etc, all historical. Now if we really wanted to get into adjustments, I suppose it would have been interesting to make a NON-historical option that sort of "shunted" the upgrade paths to a more linear approach... A6M2-M3-M5-M8... things like that... That would have been a game setting option. Still... We gots history to play out here. [8D] I don't mind how the paths are setup in the least... Once they get the bugs stomped, etc, and the OOB's have been adjusted some, the "mod'er" community will take hold and we'll see the game morph into all manner of fun stuff in the upcoming couple of years. I for one am in no hurry right now. [8D] Just my .02 cents.. [:)] Well, it is my opinion (and I am not alone) that a open-ended plane upgrade path (like in GG's BTR at least 5 years ago [X(]) should exist - at least for the Japanese player. I really do not understand why a grand-strategy 5 years' long wargame cannot have an open-ended plane upgrade while a smaller 2 years' long wargame allows it !!!! As far as I am concerned, I no longer play WITP because of that - it is now up to Matrix/2by3 to tell us if they plan to improve this aspect or not.

Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 2:09:19 PM)
well, i think some houseroules (and modded scenarios) can fix it.... as the allied, this is not "the" problem, even if i also see here some disadvantages... for the japanese, it is a huge disadvantage, cause no country would use inferior planes if they lack em but have plenty of superior planes (if we improve the upgrade path this way... ija-groups only into other ija-groups and navy groups... so, cause you can produce the planes at "will", you should have the chance to change the planes freely... or you forbid such things and just play with historical production and historical results (damned, the evil jap didn´t attack midway, now the game is... this is a useless discussion we never ever will solve)... So, if matrix does not want to change it, lets do it without em... i allways will accept it and play the allied side, like i allways will accept a shinano class with 108 or 128 planes capacity... why not ? for me it is NO game stopper... with the editor, we can do what we want. We need only some good alternate history scenarios and houseroules... my 2 cents....

Warspite** -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 5:59:25 PM)
Thanks for the responses to my question Elf, Drongo.

2ndACR -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 6:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2Stepper quote: ORIGINAL: Spooky I agree - the lack of this open-ended plane upgrade is for me the biggest WITP design mistake. Right now, I do not have any WITP game running because of this ... I hope it is going to be corrected in a forthcoming patch otherwise my WITP playing time is going to be very short [:(] Nah, I disagree with you that it's a mistake Spooky... From the outset, the intent was to build a wargame that simulated history. Hence them making the upgrade routes, etc, all historical. Now if we really wanted to get into adjustments, I suppose it would have been interesting to make a NON-historical option that sort of "shunted" the upgrade paths to a more linear approach... A6M2-M3-M5-M8... things like that... That would have been a game setting option. Still... We gots history to play out here. [8D] I don't mind how the paths are setup in the least... Once they get the bugs stomped, etc, and the OOB's have been adjusted some, the "mod'er" community will take hold and we'll see the game morph into all manner of fun stuff in the upcoming couple of years. I for one am in no hurry right now. [8D] Just my .02 cents.. [:)] Sorry, gotta disagree. Bombing The Reich was also a historical simulation. But it allowed you in the course of a game do the "what if". The only way I see the Japanese player having a snowball's chance in you know where is if they can heavily streamline production, get the better a/c to their units, spend lots on research etc. If alot of the IJA is stuck with crappy Oscars when much better a/c are available in large numbers why should he be stuck with them? If the Japanese player is willing to spend the time and resources to research and produce in large numbers the better a/c available to him, he should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of his labors by assigning them to his fighter sqdrns. Even being allowed to do this it will still be mid 44 before they start to come online. The allies have IMO better a/c from 43 onward and the numbers. All this does is allow the Japanese player a better shot at winning or reaching a tie late war. BTR also had a much more detailed production scheme. You had to produce airframes, parts, engines. Every part was type specific as were everything else. You did not have to mess with the production, but it increased your chances of stemming the tide.

Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 6:44:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Drongo Only the designers can give you the final answer but I have seen nothing in the dev forum to indicate that a major revamp of upgrade paths are being considered for the next patch. Any upgrade path changes that do occur will most likely only take the form of correcting obvious OOB errors (per the OOB thread) as opposed to the design philosophy itself [:)]. Thanks Drongo for this answer [:(] To say that I am disappointed is quite an understatement ! I simply hope Matrix/2by3 will take in account the feedback of so many WITP buyers ...

UncleBuck -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:04:13 PM)
It is not a show stopper for me, and I want to say Thanks for hosting so much useful stuff for WitP and UV for so long Spooky. I can not understand why the Japanese player is stymied on aircraft allocation. I can see a wall between IJA and IJN planes but within the two services they should be able to upgrade or discard and change any squadron to any type plane they choose within the squadrons’ role. No changing Recon units to Fighters etc. But if you develop the Frank why not replace all the KI-43's? Or as many as you can mange. In the US if you have F6F's why not upgrade all those FM2 squadrons? It will not stop me from playing but if you are going to give the Japanese player all the Burden of production management with little of the benefits then take it out and make it just like the US production scheme. UB

Drongo -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:36:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Spooky To say that I am disappointed is quite an understatement ! I simply hope Matrix/2by3 will take in account the feedback of so many WITP buyers ... I can understand the disappointment but I'd just like to make sure that players understand that a Japanese player's chance of victory does not hinge on this feature (or lack of it). It really just gives him a bit more flexibility before his empire snaps under the weight of Allied airpower. [:)]

Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:47:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UncleBuck It is not a show stopper for me, and I want to say Thanks for hosting so much useful stuff for WitP and UV for so long Spooky. I can not understand why the Japanese player is stymied on aircraft allocation. I can see a wall between IJA and IJN planes but within the two services they should be able to upgrade or discard and change any squadron to any type plane they choose within the squadrons’ role. No changing Recon units to Fighters etc. But if you develop the Frank why not replace all the KI-43's? Or as many as you can mange. In the US if you have F6F's why not upgrade all those FM2 squadrons? It will not stop me from playing but if you are going to give the Japanese player all the Burden of production management with little of the benefits then take it out and make it just like the US production scheme. UB quote: It is not a show stopper for me, and I want to say Thanks for hosting so much useful stuff for WitP and UV for so long Spooky. I can not understand why the Japanese player is stymied on aircraft allocation. I can see a wall between IJA and IJN planes but within the two services they should be able to upgrade or discard and change any squadron to any type plane they choose within the squadrons’ role. No changing Recon units to Fighters etc. But if you develop the Frank why not replace all the KI-43's? Or as many as you can mange. In the US if you have F6F's why not upgrade all those FM2 squadrons? It will not stop me from playing but if you are going to give the Japanese player all the Burden of production management with little of the benefits then take it out and make it just like the US production scheme. Sums up my opionion as well, played BTR and the BEST part was playing with german aircraft production.. all NF units using HS 129's ?? for instance. It had been said many times on this forum but I for one am confused with production abilities/ needs / results as japan. Being as I'm a huge fan of this game it won't put me off it in any way but this 'feature' will distract possible future and casual wargamers. Lets face it even if japan gets the shinden in 44 it's still going to lose ! It just hurts a bit less [:D], also an incentive for prolonged PBEM games when as japan your up to the wall in late game and want some fun at least with new toys [8D] My 2 pence for what its worth

Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:52:26 PM)
The reason Japan even has production at all is simply to give the Allies something to destroy to end the game. Looking at it beyond the choke it imposes on Japan is looking beyond what it was designed to simulate. Remind yourself of the real reason Japan has production and you'll understand that it is not to allow altering history, it is there to IMPOSE history. Without it, Japan would be free to conduct completely unrestricted warfare with no regard to history. There would be no need to attack the SRA, no need to worry about supply, no need to worry about fuel.

UncleBuck -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:56:09 PM)
Not quite Frag, You woudl still ant to take SRA and as much of CHina as you can to get the supplies to Japan, but if it was all AI controled production, you woudl get teh historical timeline but if you don't provide teh resources then you don't gets no planes. How is that differnt then what you get now, other than you have to monkey with what the country does to get teh historical outcomes? UB

Chaplain -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 7:58:51 PM)
I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to tryand exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory.

Oznoyng -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:13:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag Remind yourself of the real reason Japan has production and you'll understand that it is not to allow altering history, it is there to IMPOSE history. Without it, Japan would be free to conduct completely unrestricted warfare with no regard to history. There would be no need to attack the SRA, no need to worry about supply, no need to worry about fuel. And that sums up the whole problem for the Japanese player. This is the single most important point: the a/c upgrade paths enforce the war's history on the game when the game may not match the history. Lots of things can differ in WitP: more BB's can be sunk, the American carriers can all be lost rather than KB at a Midway, etc. Those changes can delay the Allied onslaught - and more time for the Japanese means more time to equip and train pilots, more time to research and produce aircraft. Producing more aircraft does nothing for Japan if no squadrons can be equipped with them. So, the Japanese player succeeds in holding the line through most of 43 because he sank the Allied CV's, etc. He gets more time to produce planes and generates a surplus beyond those needed for replacements, but never gets to use them because they sit in the pool after the few squadrons that used them historically are filled up.

Oznoyng -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:21:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaplain I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to tryand exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory. Winning as Japan is never an option. The sheer volume of men and material will swamp you eventually. Choosing to equip squadrons with newer aircraft when you have a surplus of the newer aircraft is a no-bnrainer. Yet the game imposes on the Japanese player a "brain dead" rule that they can only upgrade to planes that they did historically. So there is a Japanese player, with the goal of bettering Japan's historical results. Off he goes and does that, delaying the Allied offensives until late '43. Now, he has enjoyed an extra 6-12 months of production compared to historical results, but he is still held to the constraints in aircraft upgrades that occurred historically. Sorry, but that's just not right.

Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:23:42 PM)
If there was no production at all, it would also be non-historical. The goal was to make the Japanese player wrestle with the tough choices faced and never have enough to do anything right. It does that well. You are always stuck choosing something at the expense of something else. That is the pain that needs to be felt to play Japan.

Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:32:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaplain I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to try and exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory. There is no way for Japan to win ... and in BTR, there is no way for Germany to win. What I do not understand is why WITP allows the Japanese player to alter plane production, R&D, factory production ... and not the upgrade path of his squadrons [&:] However, it is my mistake - it seems that I misunderstood WITP's goal : I believed it was possible to play the Pac War as the Japanese CinC with the real Japanese choices (lack of of fuel and resources for the industry, not enough ASW ships ...) and not to have the true Pac War History imposed by various hard-coded means (fixed plane upgrade paths, decreased pilot experience years after years ...) regardless of how the war was going in the game ...

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:41:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag The reason Japan even has production at all is simply to give the Allies something to destroy to end the game. Looking at it beyond the choke it imposes on Japan is looking beyond what it was designed to simulate. Remind yourself of the real reason Japan has production and you'll understand that it is not to allow altering history, it is there to IMPOSE history. Without it, Japan would be free to conduct completely unrestricted warfare with no regard to history. There would be no need to attack the SRA, no need to worry about supply, no need to worry about fuel. And when you provide and editor with a game that is EXACTLY what you, as the developer are implying you are allowing. Editors exist for no other primary reason than to ALTER THE GAME! In this case, to change it from a "historical simulation" into a "starfleet/warcraft" game. If users want to produce all Shindens and ugrade every last fighter unit to Shindens by Nov 44 via an editor, why should you or anyone at 2x3 or Matrix care? When you ship an editor with a game, ALL bets are totally OFF. Or at least, they SHOULD be.

Oznoyng -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:42:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag If there was no production at all, it would also be non-historical. The goal was to make the Japanese player wrestle with the tough choices faced and never have enough to do anything right. It does that well. You are always stuck choosing something at the expense of something else. That is the pain that needs to be felt to play Japan. Pretty lame fall back. Japan must feel the heat because they felt the heat? Sorry, they felt the heat because things went to hell fast at Midway. You think Guadalcanal would have been won if KB had been around to debate the issue and Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet were seabed litter? You think American subs would have been as successful if they were based further away from SLOC's between Japan and the SRA? The events of WWII were dominos - one falling led to another falling. Midway lost made a loss at Guadalcanal more likely. As the Allies, you can recover from a reverse Midway because of your industry. As Japan, dominos will eventually fall against you and you can't. Suggesting that Japan could not produce anything and therefore should not be allowed to use what they can produce is silly. If I can produce it, I should be able to use it. If I can produce it, and shouldn't be able to, that is another story.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:46:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Spooky quote: ORIGINAL: Chaplain I disagree with Spooky, as well. I prefer WitP as it is in terms of Japanese production. Playing Japan "to win" is (IMHO) silly. Historically, she had no chance. I play to try and exceed her historical achievements, and consider that a victory. There is no way for Japan to win ... and in BTR, there is no way for Germany to win. What I do not understand is why WITP allows the Japanese player to alter plane production, R&D, factory production ... and not the upgrade path of his squadrons [&:] However, it is my mistake - it seems that I misunderstood WITP's goal : I believed it was possible to play the Pac War as the Japanese CinC with the real Japanese choices (lack of of fuel and resources for the industry, not enough ASW ships ...) and not to have the true Pac War History imposed by various hard-coded means (fixed plane upgrade paths, decreased pilot experience years after years ...) regardless of how the war was going in the game ... Once they shipped the editor in the Matrix version, it became that. But agreed. When a game producer provides an editor, made BY THE PRODUCER, not some third party, they are implying that they are going to allow you to turn the game into whatever you want it to be. And yes, why do they allow Japan total control over production, yet NOT allow you to deliver what you produce in the fashion you want to deliver. I want ALL Shindens in EVERY Japanese fighter squadron on the map by Jan 1945. What's the problem with that, again? I don't really get it.

Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:49:09 PM)
You are not seeing the big picture ... who said you can't produce it. It is your fault that you are producing the wrong thing, making stuff you don't need instead of stuff you do need. That is part of the overall headache of managing the balancing act. If you simply pretend there is no IJA/IJN and play the game like that, they I completely understand you wanting to be able to simply make the one best aircraft and ignore production from then on, but that is not the reality of what Japan faced. They had 2 separate groups with totally separate demands making life hell for the industrial boys who were constantly caught serving two masters. Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins.

Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/3/2004 8:57:17 PM)
Hi Zoomie but I think you miss part of the point, a lot of players, don't want to edit there games or OOB's even if it makes the OOB better or more correct, they want to play the game as it was made by the designer in BTR (with the editor that was made later) I can start a 43 campaign and give the GE all TA-152's and DO-335's, but if I did, I wouldn't play that game (LOL, I did test it, with 1000 of each added at the beginning, it was fun for a test :)) but as I was saying, for me, it would be nice if I could change my Chinese squadrons to Demons or P-40 E's when the stock pile of them is large enough, I will not edit the game to do so, if the designers give me the option, then I will, if not, I will wait for some P-40 N's to build up HARD_Sarge

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