RE: Aircraft Upgrades (Full Version)

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Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 10:19:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
2BY3 would not budge on the issue at all.
Fair enough. [:)]



Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 11:01:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Nobody cares what you can do in user scenarios because you can do whatever you want. The whole aircraft choice "type" discussion has been around for as long as the game has been being built. If you guys seriously think that not a single member of the team didn't ask for this particular feature a million times over, I'm laughing at you.

2BY3 would not budge on the issue at all. If this is a game killer for you, pack up and move on. It's not going to change, it never was in the plan, it was stated a million times over that it was not in the game nor will it.



OK - what I would like is an official statement from a 2by3 or a Matrix representative on this "on the fly" aircraft upgrade issue. As Mr Frag says, I have to know if I have to pack up and move on ...



Banquet -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 11:58:02 AM)

I've never played the Japanese so have avoided commenting here up till now.. however, I would like to say I do find it strange that you can produce aircraft but then are not able to equip your choice of squadrons with them.

I understand you can change the upgrade path in the editor which, to an extent, will alleviate the problem. But, how will you know, at the beginning of the war, which upgrades you might need 2 years down the line?

In playing the game (and in the real war too) there was every chance the Japanese could have won Midway (or, in game, it might never happen) This would have given maybe another year of expansion/fortifying.. and presumbly more resources.

By my way of thinking if, by early 43, if things are going well, and the game allows me to produce better aircraft, in more numbers, than historically were produced, then by default I should be able to equip my squadrons with them.

I'd be quite happy for limitations of pp's or enforced 100% training for certain time spans.

It seems that the Japanese are hamstrung by the 'real war' results before the 'game war' has even started when it come's to aircraft production.

I understand the Allies have no choice at all, but considering they are also operating in other theatre's and that they have other immense advantages (re-inforcement wise) I'm quite happy for the the Allied system to remain as it is.

Apologies if I'm missing the point. I'm going to start a game as the Japanese to get a feel for the game as it's probably unfair for me to comment without having played them!



Captain Cruft -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 2:35:45 PM)

Phew! What a thread ...

I never played BTR but I agree with the "BTR crowd". What is the point of having a tweakable production system if you can't use the results of your tweaking? Seems simple enough to me.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 4:38:37 PM)

OK, outsider's perspective here - I'm a prospective, not current, player of WitP.

What on earth is the point of allowing the Japanese player control of his production without allowing him control of deployment of the fruits of that production?

I can't see this as a game-breaker on it's own but if it's symptomatic I may well think twice about buying WitP.

For example:

  • Can I build more Yamato's? Or, can I complete Shinano as a BB? Can I build more Escort ships instead? (Oh, yes please!)
  • Can I build/recruit more infantry at an earlier stage? If so, will this have an effect on my industrial capacity?


Steve.



Kizsam -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 6:20:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

In playing the game (and in the real war too) there was every chance the Japanese could have won Midway (or, in game, it might never happen) This would have given maybe another year of expansion/fortifying.. and presumbly more resources.

By my way of thinking if, by early 43, if things are going well, and the game allows me to produce better aircraft, in more numbers, than historically were produced, then by default I should be able to equip my squadrons with them.

It seems that the Japanese are hamstrung by the 'real war' results before the 'game war' has even started when it come's to aircraft production.




I agree with this 100%.



Andy Mac -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 6:28:35 PM)

I agree with the above and would like some flexibilty.

I dont care if its PP limited or training limited but I would like some flexibility even if its just for PBEM games.

For me it is the only flaw in a wonderful game.

Andy



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 6:35:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caltone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Nobody cares what you can do in user scenarios because you can do whatever you want. The whole aircraft choice "type" discussion has been around for as long as the game has been being built. If you guys seriously think that not a single member of the team didn't ask for this particular feature a million times over, I'm laughing at you.

2BY3 would not budge on the issue at all. If this is a game killer for you, pack up and move on. It's not going to change, it never was in the plan, it was stated a million times over that it was not in the game nor will it.

As far as why, there are many reasons. None of them have *anything* at all to do with coding a simple pick list. They all have to do with a historical game.

The concept of picking something because it is better completely goes against the concept of historical war games. The goal of a historic game is to make you deal with the crap they had, not replace the crap with great stuff. There is always something better, but you don't get it until after the fact. Thats how wars are fought. You can't sit back and wait until you have the perfect widget and then you go beat the other guy. It doesn't work that way.

The war in the pacific theater was not about who had the best widget, it was about a tiny upstart trying to take on the world and getting stomped on once the sleeping giant woke up. Most of this churn is from people who have not played enough of the game to understand just how depressing it is. I suggest you play the 1945 campaign AS japan for a bit and learn that even the best there is will be completely useless in the numbers there are available. You can't change this. Japan looses.

The fun is in playing the game along the way and being able to say that you took the crap you had and did better or worse then history.


This is one of your better post's Frag [;)]

It sounds like people can use the editor to accomplish most of what they want in this thread. The only piece I see missing from that are the ones who want to change upgrade paths on the fly.

From Frag's comments we can see this was not the game 2by3 intended. As it is their game, it didn't make it as a feature.

Since it is unlikely they will change their mind on this, the only suggestion is to work with the editor and perhaps hope for a saved game editor later.


Yea, I think this pretty much sums it all up, nicely. I don't think we will see "on-the-fly" upgrade path changes....just have to give it our best guess in the editors...



joliverlay -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 6:48:17 PM)

Mr. Frag:

I am completely puzzeled by your post:

Nobody cares.......etc

and especially your explanations there and elsewhere regarding the aircraft upgrades. I don't disagree with your companies right to make whatever game you design (and take the consequences if it does not please your customers). I like the game, and will play it, for years perhaps. What I am bother buy is the explanation that you give. There is no reason historical, gamewise or other that the Japanese could not have upgraded an additional squadron of Oscars to Tonys of Franks if they had produced the planes. If they are able in the game to produce more of one type of fighter than they did historically it is not NON-Historical to allow them to use them. I would agree that if you could make a lot of them, perhaps the production system was broken, but thats another matter. {Are you restricting use of these aircraft because the production system IS broken?}

Speaking of history.....the Japanese restarted construction of OLD obsolete aircraft for use in Kamakazi attacks. Can you downgrade the equipment on squadrons as the Japanese actually did in this game? If not, I am really puzzeled by your arguments about how unhistorical it would be for one or two more Oscar squadrons to upgrade to Tonys or something else.

Finally, the argument that the system is there only to give the allies something to bomb. That is somewhat strange. Whether or not extra Tonys can be used in an Oscar squadron has nothing to do with bombing the Japanese aircraft industry to dust. You can do that no matter what they produce. If the question is one of alloys or rare materials, I don't know why that is not handled as it was in BTR, simply making some planes more expensive to build (or actually inhibiting their production by making large numbers harder to produce than small.)

What I'm saying is that your arguments don't seem to make sense to me. Please give us the "real" reason behind this decision if there is one.



Captain Cruft -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:08:35 PM)

Possibly the most useful thing that could happen here is that Mr Frag (or other "staff representative") formally present this thread to "The Devs" in the form of a "petition". Having been thus addressed "The Devs" can then formally say No (or Yes) and that would be end of story.

One minor point I might add to the discussion. Earlier on Frag expressed the idea, and I paraphrase, "you don't want to turn the game into an RTS". Well, I would argue that it is precisely the RTS-like "building stuff" features of the game that make it attractive to many people. If a thing was practically possible in reality then it should be possible in the game. If that same thing was politically impossible or just extremely difficult then that should be reflected in the PP cost of the action.



Drongo -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:10:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joliverlay
I don't disagree with your companies right......


Hey Frag, you liked testing the game so much that you bought the company??? [:)]



Captain Cruft -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:14:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drongo
Hey Frag, you liked testing the game so much that you bought the company??? [:)]


I would hope you guys are at least getting a free copy of the game for your trouble ...



joliverlay -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:17:49 PM)

I don't have any idea how this (flexible upgrade path) would make the game become a RTS. I can't belive anyone would even suggest that. One of the precursors of this game BTR, and indeed its distint precursor Pac War, both by the same author (G.G.) allowed this sort of upgrade, and neither was ever considered a RTS. This has nothing whatsoever to do with that. How cold production decisions in December 41 which might give you extra planes in 1944 (1000s of game hours away) make this a RTS. They have the OPPOSITE effect. If you have to make production decisions 500 turns before you benefit from them and manage all the production in between this is OPPOSITE of a RTS.....it is a turn based strategy game build around what could have happened at the time had the persons in charge made different decisions. This is NOT a RTS.



Drongo -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:18:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
I would hope you guys are at least getting a free copy of the game for your trouble ...



The free copy of the game is irrelevent. All we needed as a reward was to read the glowing user posts after the game was released. [;)]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:26:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Possibly the most useful thing that could happen here is that Mr Frag (or other "staff representative") formally present this thread to "The Devs" in the form of a "petition". Having been thus addressed "The Devs" can then formally say No (or Yes) and that would be end of story.

One minor point I might add to the discussion. Earlier on Frag expressed the idea, and I paraphrase, "you don't want to turn the game into an RTS". Well, I would argue that it is precisely the RTS-like "building stuff" features of the game that make it attractive to many people. If a thing was practically possible in reality then it should be possible in the game. If that same thing was politically impossible or just extremely difficult then that should be reflected in the PP cost of the action.


WitP is indeed turn-based strategy meets real-time strategy. A morphing of the two. And that has a lot to do with its appeal.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 7:51:37 PM)

quote:

I don't disagree with your companies right to make whatever game you design (and take the consequences if it does not please your customers).


Not my design, not my company and no, i do not represent Matrix or 2by3 in any way, shape or form.

I fought for the features that i could get into the game. I didn't win every fight. 2BY3 was not interested in changing this one. End of story.

Sometimes you guys get a little confused as to what power we have over things. 2BY3 simply reads what we say and sees something they like and uses it. We have no say whatsoever in the design. If we did, you'd see Frag's pilot school sitting in Tokyo.



Polar Iceman -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:12:31 PM)

Ive been following this thread and for a while now and now for my 2 bits.It does not make sense to me to give a player everything they need too wage war and then say they have to fight with 1 arm tide behind their back.The game already gives you paths to take that are not historic....visavi sub doctrine.So I see no reason not to have air an option for historic aircraft upgrades as well! After all is this not what the game promised to deliver on its game page....."There are 15 campaigns included...War in the Pacific now gives you the chance to fight the entire war YOUR WAY ON EVERY LEVEL." and "Complete player control of aircraft upgrades." These are the primary reasons I bought the game. If indeed their is not the remotest chance to change the historical outcome because of game limitations,I feel there is not much reason to even attempt it. You all have a good day eh[:D]



Tankerace -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:22:37 PM)

Here is my take on it. People are saying the premis of this being a historical game is that each squadron upgrades to what it did historically. It cannot budge. If that is what passes for a historical game, then it is nothing but a user oriented documentary. If we, the player, are playing as the SUPREME COMMANDER of ALL ALLIED FORCES in the Pacific, then we should be able to choose it as we please. It is plain stupid if you want to upgrade 2 groups of F2As to F4F-4s, if you have 72 F4F-4s, but only 10 F4F-3s, you have to wait longer. That is not historical, that is just being Anal. From turn one, the game ceases being historical. The whole point of the game is not to give us a history lesson, but to give us the equipment that was available on Decemeber 7, 1941, and let us see if we can fight the war any better. They way you guys are saying it needs to be, if by June 6, 1942, four Japanese carriers aren't burning hulks, then the game must be bugged. That is stupid.

You create a game to make money. If we are giving you 80 bucks, and ask that we, the player, get a little more room to maneuver in the game, where is the harm? 75% or so of the players are editing the scenarios to do just that, so why can't you do it for us, and make them official scenarios?

Also, people tell me that the game was not released early. Well, in its current state, I would now believe that, except that the Japanese ship production, an ADVERTISED feature, does not work. If it didn't work, don't release the game. But the game was released with stuff like that not working, and Matrix has all but clammed up leaving the testers, who volunteered for free, to fend for themselves in trying to explain it all to us and defend Matrix, I can't help but feel a little betrayed. The testers have done a marvelous job in supporting the game, but its not their job to support the game, or tell us why something doesn't work as advertised. With issues like these its up to Matrix to explain just why something like these aircraft upgrades can't be done, or why advertised features suddenly don't work.

I might have been taking it the wrong way, but one thing that really erked my was on Gary Grigsby's dev Journal, where he said something to the effect "And now that WiTP has been released its full speed ahead on WaW". Nowhere did he mention any of the major problems with the game (Fatal error 772, the sound bug), and it came across to me like it was being said that the game was done, and now all oiur resources are going to be diverted towards other projects other than those needed to make the game playable on all systems (i.e. those who had the sound bug.)

I applaud the testers for their job, but now its Matrix/2by3's turn to step up and tell us why features that MOST of the players want can't be added.

If I seem a little critical of this, I do not mean to. I get really POed when a $30 game doesn't work wholly as advertised, and I remember I got really pissed when Silent Hunter II came out (40 bucks), and the promised multiplayer feature would "be added at a later date". So, when I have to live off Ramen noodles for weeks to afford this $80 game, I cannot help but be upset when it doesn't work as advertised, and when my CD order gets lost twice.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:35:48 PM)

Frag, assuming everything that had to be said in this thread, has already been said, I'll be rude and semi-hijack the thread...

I'm interested in your VERY depressive outview of the Japs chances to win the scen #15 game (mind you, I'm saying win the *game* not win the *war*).

Frankly, your depressing observations did more to cool me off for playing WITP than this whole "aircraft upgrade" discussion. (Design decisions regarding production/industry/upgrades do seem a bit strange but I can live with that.)

I guess no one played the whole campaign to the end during playtesting, but I understand you have run some PC vs. PC games (lasting for some days as I read on this forum).

What was the outcome of those games?

And finally - DO you really stand by your words that Japs have snowballs chance in hell to win the *game*? After the initial patching period ends, I plan on starting several serious PBEMs. I play to have good time, but I also play to WIN (and am not ashamed to admit it). If you tell me straight away I will have no chances of winning as Japanese (with or without aircraft upgrades or whatever) then what's the purpose of playing the friggen game?

Oleg



Tankerace -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:38:57 PM)

Like I said, its like they want to give us an $80 history lesson, not an $80 game.



mdiehl -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:39:05 PM)

The problem wasn't that the real Japanese production people had "brains the size of walnuts." The problem was that they had to choose between inferior models that they could produce in what seemed to be "adequate" numbers vs. "good on paper" models that in reality were not up to the quality of 1st line Allied a/c and in insufficient numbers.

The grousing about Japanese production here sounds to me like people are complaining because the Japanese are modeled after the Japanese rather than, for example, the Borg.

quote:

Like I said, its like they want to give us an $80 history lesson, not an $80 game.


If you want a game in which you can defeat the opposition by keeping pace in the production and quality of aircraft you should not play a game as the Japanese in WW2.



Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:45:43 PM)

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tankerace ... and all the other posters.

I have been a Matrix fanboy since the UV release 2 years ago ... but right now, I have the very unpleasant feeling that the players' feedback is not taken in account - even if a lot of us believe that a "feature" is a big flaw of the game.

Now, I really hope I am wrong and that this lack of communication can be explained by the fact that most of the Matrix staff is at the World Boardgaming Championships.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The grousing about Japanese production here sounds to me like people are complaining because the Japanese are modeled after the Japanese rather than, for example, the Borg.

quote:

Like I said, its like they want to give us an $80 history lesson, not an $80 game.


If you want a game in which you can defeat the opposition by keeping pace in the production and quality of aircraft you should not play a game as the Japanese in WW2.


No problem with your points (this time [:D]) but then why the whole production/upgrade management "thingie"? Right from the start I said I wanted to be Yamamoto, not Speer, and it seemed to me whole production management sub-game is rather tedious. Now it seems you HAVE to be Speer (which I'd like to avoid altogether), but not really see results of your "Speer-ing", if I understand the problem correctly?

That does sound a bit bizarre, you must admit...

O.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:48:57 PM)

Redundant post sent by mistake, deleted.



myros -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:49:33 PM)

re: Oleg Mastruko
There have already been some cases posted of people winning with the Japanese side by having enough points in 43 to meet the "win" criteria and end the game. (4 x points in 43 IIRC). These were against the AI mind you. So it is very possible to win the game as Japan.

I think it has more to do with PBEM ... when 2 players of equal skill and cunning play scen 15 then it would be a LOT harder for Japan to win in that manner. It is still very possible given the same scenario to achieve a better ending than history. And if you happen to be playing someone not as skilled you could quite easily pummel the allies. Its nowhere near as fixed in stone as you seem to be worried about.

Myros



Captain Cruft -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:50:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Not my design, not my company and no, i do not represent Matrix or 2by3 in any way, shape or form.


I understand that, and always have. You are acting as an informal communications channel though i.e. you can talk to 2by3, whereas none of us customers can. Hence my previous suggestion which would, one way or the other, put an end to the whole issue.



Reiryc -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 9:51:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The problem wasn't that the real Japanese production people had "brains the size of walnuts." The problem was that they had to choose between inferior models that they could produce in what seemed to be "adequate" numbers vs. "good on paper" models that in reality were not up to the quality of 1st line Allied a/c and in insufficient numbers.

The grousing about Japanese production here sounds to me like people are complaining because the Japanese are modeled after the Japanese rather than, for example, the Borg.

quote:

Like I said, its like they want to give us an $80 history lesson, not an $80 game.


If you want a game in which you can defeat the opposition by keeping pace in the production and quality of aircraft you should not play a game as the Japanese in WW2.


Silly argument...

If the production system allows one to build x number of aircraft that is better than a current model then that current model should be capable of being replaced.

If the problem is that the production system doesn't do a good job of reflecting the difficulties the japanese faced, then the production system should be tweaked. However, it stands to reason that if a model is available that performs better, that the player should be able to utilize that aircraft model more fully.

Why allow a tweaking of the production/R&D system if you can't really benefit from it?



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 10:28:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The problem wasn't that the real Japanese production people had "brains the size of walnuts." The problem was that they had to choose between inferior models that they could produce in what seemed to be "adequate" numbers vs. "good on paper" models that in reality were not up to the quality of 1st line Allied a/c and in insufficient numbers.

The grousing about Japanese production here sounds to me like people are complaining because the Japanese are modeled after the Japanese rather than, for example, the Borg.

quote:

Like I said, its like they want to give us an $80 history lesson, not an $80 game.


If you want a game in which you can defeat the opposition by keeping pace in the production and quality of aircraft you should not play a game as the Japanese in WW2.


If we had NO control over Japanese production I could agree. But Matrix or 2X3 gave 100% control over Japanese production. Now we CAN produce GOOD models, in some cases even BETTER than American counterparts, and get them in substantial numbers by simply being smarter than the Japanese were in history, and better/luckier in combat. But then we are forced back into decisions that adhere to history even though we are no longer historical at all. If I have the ability to produce a pool of 500 Shindens by Dev 1944 I should be able to use them regardless of what "history" says. Historically, I should never have Shindens at all. But the game allows me to. What's the point if I'm not allowed to use them?



Tankerace -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 10:32:37 PM)

Boom! You just hit the nail on the head Zoomie.



mdiehl -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/4/2004 10:47:03 PM)

quote:

If the production system allows one to build x number of aircraft that is better than a current model then that current model should be capable of being replaced.

If the problem is that the production system doesn't do a good job of reflecting the difficulties the japanese faced, then the production system should be tweaked. However, it stands to reason that if a model is available that performs better, that the player should be able to utilize that aircraft model more fully.

Why allow a tweaking of the production/R&D system if you can't really benefit from it?


You can benefit from it, you're just not going to win the war from it. I have more sympathy with Oleg's response. If the game requires that you channel Speer rather than opt for an automated management system that attempts something historical then there's a need for more automation.

But as to your point, my view is that any effort to model in detail the kinds of inefficiencies and lack of resources (in particular large numbers of top ranked engineers, machinists and industrial moguls who can really rationalize production AND also make top of the line equipment) is doomed to fail unless you sort of invert the whole point of the game. That is, make a game called "WW2 Industrial Baron" in which the ONLY thing the players do is manage the economies and let the war play out in some hypersimplified Risk type combat resolution system. Because doing this job really well requires an inordinated level of complexity.

So, IMO, Matrix has been somewhat generous to the Japanese player in letting him have as much control as he does. Given a choice between walking into an incredible quagmire of modeling Japanese production in detail (only, I am pretty sure, to have the usual AF legions persistently clamoring to be allowed to tweak the system such that Shinden production compares favorably with P-40 production as regards numbers), and simply removing the feature entirely from the Japanese player's control, I'd say the best option is the latter.



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