RE: Aircraft Upgrades (Full Version)

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Drongo -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:01:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated........


Congratulations on lashing out and buying the game.

OK, I'm curious since this is the first post I've seen complaining about late war Jap a/c being better than they should. Are you seeing some unrealistic combat results in a late war scenario or something?



mdiehl -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:04:17 PM)

quote:

Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought.


I am mildly surprised to hear you arguing the points that you have made in this thread. You are hereby reclassified to "Member: Axis Booster Club" status. [:D]



Spooky -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:07:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Of course, that's not really what Japanese aficionados want to hear. They want to hear "Yes, you can build and man hundreds of Ki-84s by 1944 but you won't have to face F4Us on CVs until some time in 1945."


No, I just want to be able to use the planes I build the way I want (within some limits) - is it that hard to understand [:@]
I am not talking about Ki-84 or F4U on CVs.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:11:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky
No, I just want to be able to use the planes I build the way I want (within some limits) - is it that hard to understand [:@]
I am not talking about Ki-84 or F4U on CVs.


Yes it seems it is hard for certain people to understand. Its gone from you want f18's to lets nerf late war jap aircraft with stops everywhere along the way. Real odd the way they keep mistating whats being asked for to buttress thier arguements.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:30:10 PM)

yep - some here do not want the possibility for "japanese" players... if you play the japs you are a fanboy... so everything that improve the situation is "ahistorical"...

nobody said that you should be easily able to produce 1000s of ki84s... but if i manage to do so, i want to equip my groupswith it, esp. if they otherwise can only fly the nate... also the same is true for the p40-crap versus thunderbolts/mustang thing... sure, historically some groups flew them until the end, but hindsight here hindsight there, NOBODY can tell me that if i can use "better" planes (and i hope we all agree that the p51 mustang WAS better as the p40 [:D]) cause i have lots of them in the stockpile i do ignore it and even worse, if i have only a few worser planes, my groups will NOT be updated.... sorry, that sound not really smart for me.

My idea of reequiped air groups is that you only can do it at certain places (for example size10 airports) and that you will loose experience points (differ from the type... zero2 to zero 3 nil, zero 2 to shinden say 15POINTS (no percentage, so it hurts you really)) or even better, you have to DISBAND em (and you loose 90 days....)
This should be true for both sides (again, the same planetyp, just another version should be upgradeable like now)... and navy = navy and army = army and also bomber=bomber and fighter/fighterbomber=fighterbomber...

is it ahistorical ? yes... but the whole game is fully ahistorical from turn one... so no problem, cause we use historical things and try to do better... and this should be possible with both sides...

it is true that japan will loose, but if i do better as the jap, i should have the chance to let the allied pay much more as they payed in 44/45.... and it seems to me that the fanboygroup want to avoid it... (or, for the japanese fanboys to invade frisco...) both is not smart... and take the fun out of it... but as i mentioned earlier, we have the editor and we should have enough good people to create nearly perfect scenarios without bashing the designer... "we" (i mean the people who disagree to this strict rules) can live with it and if "we" are so many that nobody will play other scenarios per pbem, maybe something will change..

so take it easy and be happy... [:D][:)]

we should not forget that this IS a great game
and i can only advice to buy and to play it..
have fun



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:35:07 PM)

quote:


That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.


Nevermind...deleted due to irrelevance!

The problem we have here is Matrix came down right in the middle of this issue, and thereby ticked off BOTH camps!



Oznoyng -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:42:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.

All of this is based upon conditions which existed historically, but might not exist in game. As such, they aren't even worthy of consideration. You got it wrong when you said, "They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. " They didn't historically. You have no idea what they have in the game until it happens.

History goes out the f'in window the moment we begin entering turns and resolve the results with the help of the RNG. I could run out of resources in 42 if I FUBAR the SRA attack or get unlucky. I could have resources well into 44 if I get lucky, handle the SRA perfectly, babysit the economy, and manage a few decisive victories against Allied CV's. An extra couple tankers of oil, a couple extra bulk carriers of ore, Saipan, et al lost later than they were historically lost and Japan's world changes. They still lose, but advanced aircraft arrive in greater numbers to equip more squadrons.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:51:14 PM)

quote:

I am mildly surprised to hear you arguing the points that you have made in this thread. You are hereby reclassified to "Member: Axis Booster Club" status.


While I happen to be a Axis Fanboy, I prefer to win on my own with the crap that was available, not double the forces at the disposal. It just doesn't sit well with me that we are simply glossing over the completely well known reality of Japan's aircraft production numbers and their massive problems making anything of quality.

There was a reason they couldn't make a thousand A8M's ... and it had nothing to do with the state of their factories from Allied bombing (which was shown after the war to be largely ineffective - based on the USAAF post war studies).

Japan simply did not have the skilled manpower, the production abilities, the raw goods, and so on and so on.

They fielded what they could based on what they had. We have a grossly simplified model and people are neglecting the reality completely and saying lets just add this little interface toggle to let me do this because they are hung up on the interface mechanics of the game which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

If you want to go down this path, fine, I have no issue with it BUT I expect it to be done *right* with all the *real* inhibiters that *REALY* controlled Japan's outcome, not some little box that lets you pick any aircraft there was and just start researching it and magically get it before any of the preceeding aircraft that made it possible have been created.

Half of Japan's aircraft are not even real aircraft, they are a future aircraft with a past aircraft engine because thats all there was available. These threads completely gloss over reality and are hung up on a silly picklist. Unless that level of simulation is available to make half aircraft (which most of the aircraft past '42 are), then this becomes so gamey it is embarrassing.

It's like saying that Germany *knowing* the Panther was the best tank didn't make any other and went straight there instead of wasting time.



DrewMatrix -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:57:49 PM)

quote:

Japan simply did not have the skilled manpower, the production abilities, the raw goods, and so on and so on.



Well, that's the answer then. All we need are 3 little toggles (like the "Japanese Sub Doctrine" switches.

"Japanese Skilled Manpower On/Off"
"Japanese Massive Production Infrastructure On/Off"
"Japanese have lots of raw goods On/Off"


Do you think that can be put on the wish list? [:)]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 7:59:58 PM)

quote:

"Japanese Skilled Manpower On/Off"
"Japanese Massive Production Infrastructure On/Off"
"Japanese have lots of raw goods On/Off"


As long as it also is countered by:

"Allied PTO First On/Off"



Apollo11 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:03:03 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

I think this scenario editor is quite well built. If I were to ask for one piece of added functionality it would be a button that upgrades all ships or airgroups to their coresponding class values.

I hate modding an american destroyer class and then having to mod 67 individual ships as well.


Michael here is what I had in mind:

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D680456


Please support my effort... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:04:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I am mildly surprised to hear you arguing the points that you have made in this thread. You are hereby reclassified to "Member: Axis Booster Club" status.


While I happen to be a Axis Fanboy, I prefer to win on my own with the crap that was available, not double the forces at the disposal. It just doesn't sit well with me that we are simply glossing over the completely well known reality of Japan's aircraft production numbers and their massive problems making anything of quality.

There was a reason they couldn't make a thousand A8M's ... and it had nothing to do with the state of their factories from Allied bombing (which was shown after the war to be largely ineffective - based on the USAAF post war studies).

Japan simply did not have the skilled manpower, the production abilities, the raw goods, and so on and so on.

They fielded what they could based on what they had. We have a grossly simplified model and people are neglecting the reality completely and saying lets just add this little interface toggle to let me do this because they are hung up on the interface mechanics of the game which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

If you want to go down this path, fine, I have no issue with it BUT I expect it to be done *right* with all the *real* inhibiters that *REALY* controlled Japan's outcome, not some little box that lets you pick any aircraft there was and just start researching it and magically get it before any of the preceeding aircraft that made it possible have been created.

Half of Japan's aircraft are not even real aircraft, they are a future aircraft with a past aircraft engine because thats all there was available. These threads completely gloss over reality and are hung up on a silly picklist. Unless that level of simulation is available to make half aircraft (which most of the aircraft past '42 are), then this becomes so gamey it is embarrassing.

It's like saying that Germany *knowing* the Panther was the best tank didn't make any other and went straight there instead of wasting time.


All that being said, the designers did 2 things that run counter to everything you have just said.

1) They specced out later models with exaggerated specs making the equal, if not BETTER than Allied a/c.

2) They gave us the freedom to alter production SUBSTANTIALLY from historical reality.

So SOMEONE on the design team fundementally disagrees with you.

BUT, the also gave us fixed upgrade paths, that in many cases dead-end on some pretty bad models. So someone else on the design team must agree with you.

It's like 2x3 could figure out which way they really wanted to go either. So what's the answer?

1) Make the Japanese production system like the Allied system. Out of reach of human intervention. Enforces your view of the game.

2) Make upgrade paths user configurable inside the game and give the allies the same system. Enforces the "Warcraft" view of the game.

So which choice to make? Well, for that, they go back to the market. The market is overwhelminingly clammouring for #2. IF it is technically feasable to do so, they should do #2, because that's what the users want. For those that don't want that, make houserules. If NOT technically feasible, then go with #1 and at least be consistant in design philosophy....



Apollo11 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:12:25 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Is that Croatian thingie an ex Texas-class or something? And forgive me for not recognizing those things sticking out .. are they torpedo net spars or just -- well, since it is the Croatian navy... err, hmmm, oars? [;)]


Croatia was for several hundred of years kingdom that was part of Austrian-Hungarian empire.

But since the Croatian Adriatic coast was the only sea empire ever had most of sailors and many officers were Croats.

In 1918 when Austrian-Hungarian empire crumbled "Viribus Unitis" was taken over short lived Croatian state and sunk by Italian commandos in port when war was over.

BTW, almost all Austrian-Hungarian fleet was always based in Pula (there was shipyard that build some of them though most ships were build at Trieste - now Italy but then long standing integral part of Austrian-Hungarian empire).


Here is interesting site about 4 sister ships Viribus Unitis, Tegetthoff, Prinz Eugen and Szent Istvan (by my countryman):

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/5294/main.html


So... the picture you were commention on was WWI battleship (Dreadnouht) build in 1912.

BTW, as my friend Oleg (he also often posts here) says:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

These must be holders for anti torpedo netting. Though the practice of using anti torpedo nets on ships themselves (as opposed to having nets as part of harbor defense) was abandoned by many navies by mid-WW1, many ships retained the "poles" for anti torpedo nets even after that.

When travelling, whole "contraption" (poles, net and all) was lined alongside ships hull, well trained crew was able to extend the "poles" and lower the netting in a matter of 10-20 seconds.

Apparently nets proved unable to stop the torpedo and were thought as ineffective way to stop the torpedo based on experience from Russo-Japanese war. Then there was possibility of fouling the screw with the net etc.



Leo "Apollo11"



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:12:34 PM)

quote:

The market is overwhelminingly clammouring for #2.


How does 5 or so people constitute the market?

If 100+ people were saying to hell with history, I want this you might have a slightly better point.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:13:42 PM)

Mr. Frag,

I think that zoomie has a point. Which one does Matrix want. Number 1 or 2. Because there is a conflict of design here.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:15:01 PM)

If you are letting the Japanese player modify production and industry, it was already said to hell with history.



Oznoyng -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:15:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
If you want to go down this path, fine, I have no issue with it BUT I expect it to be done *right* with all the *real* inhibiters that *REALY* controlled Japan's outcome, not some little box that lets you pick any aircraft there was and just start researching it and magically get it before any of the preceeding aircraft that made it possible have been created.

I'd trather not even have research, just the ability to modifey production numbers once the aircraft was in an active squadron.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Half of Japan's aircraft are not even real aircraft, they are a future aircraft with a past aircraft engine because thats all there was available. These threads completely gloss over reality and are hung up on a silly picklist. Unless that level of simulation is available to make half aircraft (which most of the aircraft past '42 are), then this becomes so gamey it is embarrassing.

What aircraft (aside from the A6M8, Shinden, and the Reppu) are "not even real aircraft"?



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:18:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

The market is overwhelminingly clammouring for #2.


How does 5 or so people constitute the market?

If 100+ people were saying to hell with history, I want this you might have a slightly better point.


Of the people that have enough concern over the issue to post to this thread on it, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, want #2.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:23:29 PM)

quote:

Of the people that have enough concern over the issue to post to this thread on it, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, want #2.


[:D]

2 out of 100,000 people responded to our survey and stated that they prefered Coke over Pepsie. I guess it's ok to infer that the other 99,998 folks must love Coke too.

[8|]



mdiehl -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:36:44 PM)

quote:

While I happen to be a Axis Fanboy, I prefer to win on my own with the crap that was available, not double the forces at the disposal. It just doesn't sit well with me that we are simply glossing over the completely well known reality of Japan's aircraft production numbers and their massive problems making anything of quality


I'm sorry, but that post takes you off even the booster club membership list and puts you on the "Axis Fanboy: Do not call" list.

Amused as I am by the plethora of banners boasting membership in a fanboy club ([:)]), the term was never meant to describe players who like the challenge of playing the Japanese (or for that matter, the Allies in the early part of the war -- which is my favorite challenge).

It's meant to describe a different mindset... the guys who really believe that the AVG (Allied Fanboys) shot down 512 a/c, that the historical "confirmed kills" awarded to Japanese pilots by Japanese commanders based on Japanese AARs (Axis Fanboys) are anything near reality and to be taken at face value etc. And a host of other things I've kicked around before. And yes, the guys who think you can have a game in which the Japanese produce legions of their best aircraft, have it perform better than the real thing, and still have the game resemble the look and feel of WW2 in the PTO.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:42:00 PM)

quote:

I'm sorry, but that post takes you off even the booster club membership list and puts you on the "Axis Fanboy: Do not call" list.


<sob> <takes down wall plaque that has hung for 30 years> <sob>

Ok, so I guess that makes me a Historical Fanboy now?

I'll go suggest the "I win" button for Japan, that will get me back in the family!



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:50:04 PM)

I don't care enough about this issue to post to this thread, but i guess i will anyway. I don't want #2.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:52:21 PM)

quote:


All that being said, the designers did 2 things that run counter to everything you have just said.

1) They specced out later models with exaggerated specs making the equal, if not BETTER than Allied a/c.

2) They gave us the freedom to alter production SUBSTANTIALLY from historical reality.

So SOMEONE on the design team fundementally disagrees with you.

BUT, the also gave us fixed upgrade paths, that in many cases dead-end on some pretty bad models. So someone else on the design team must agree with you.

It's like 2x3 could figure out which way they really wanted to go either. So what's the answer?

1) Make the Japanese production system like the Allied system. Out of reach of human intervention. Enforces your view of the game.

2) Make upgrade paths user configurable inside the game and give the allies the same system. Enforces the "Warcraft" view of the game.

So which choice to make? Well, for that, they go back to the market. The market is overwhelminingly clammouring for #2. IF it is technically feasable to do so, they should do #2, because that's what the users want. For those that don't want that, make houserules. If NOT technically feasible, then go with #1 and at least be consistant in design philosophy....



Mr. Frag,

I think that zoomie has a point. Which one does Matrix want. Number 1 or 2. Because there is a conflict of design here.

If you are letting the Japanese player modify production and industry, it was already said to hell with history.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 8:58:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Of the people that have enough concern over the issue to post to this thread on it, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY, want #2.


[:D]

2 out of 100,000 people responded to our survey and stated that they prefered Coke over Pepsie. I guess it's ok to infer that the other 99,998 folks must love Coke too.

[8|]


Well that's about the dumbest post you've made in a while as it is not even a remotely applicable analogy.

If 5 of 7 people who care about a feature want it one way and 2 want it the other way, it goes the way the five want if anything is changed at all. The other 4993 are IRRELEVENT because they don't care one way or the other.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 9:00:02 PM)

quote:

If you are letting the Japanese player modify production and industry, it was already said to hell with history.


I think you will find out that the issue completely resolves itself after 300 odd days of play when japan is completely bankrupt having made massive production changes to bring aircraft into play that they can not support.

The problem is most of the folks in this thread read a line in the editor and scream, but have yet to actually play the game far enough to even know that what they are talking about is completely pointless. [;)]

This is one of the reasons that releasing editors at the same time the game comes out is dangerous. People look at the data and extrapolate things with no actual knowledge of real situation.

You can break down this entire thread in one point: "I hate Nates, I don't want to have to wait for Oscars to upgrade!"



Arnir -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 9:02:22 PM)

Or perhaps the other 4993 don't want to get into what is considered to be a fruitless debate. Some of us might be waiting until it appears that the debate might have a purpose.

Of course, if the "silent majority" never speaks up then they will become the "irrelevant majority." I would imagine that if Matrix/2by3 publicly announces their willingness to consider changing the issue, more players will become involved.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 9:02:26 PM)

Fair enough Mr. Frag. Thanks for the reply.



Lemurs! -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 9:02:29 PM)

Frag,

you keep going on and on, ad nauseum, about Japan not having the resources or skilled manpower to build high tech aircraft. You are overlooking everything we have said.

We are not asking for extra aircraft factories. We are not asking for extra resources. Do you know anything about Japanese industry in WW2? They actually improved their production line ala America during the war. Did you know that before a new worker started working on the line they had to have 1 months training before starting? That did end in early '45 but 9/10s of the war is over by then.

We did not ask for anything outside the bounds of the game or, indeed, reality. If I as the Japanese player spend 100,000 supply and heavy industry, that i really can't afford to spend, to build extra (not early) Ki-84's why can we not use them?
Your answer is 'Japan doesn't have the resources to integrate the new aircraft'. What Integration? You give the planes you have already built to a unit and they learn to fly it the same as the allied pilots!

There are no resources required for this! Except fuel which is already represented in the game, and if 2by3 did a good job, in your average game the Japanese player will be short of fuel/supplies.

Did you know that the Ki-84 was a less complicated plane to build then either the Ki-43 or 44? The Japanese planned it that way because they had learned about simplifying design to help automation.
This is one of the main reasons the Ki-84 was able to be produced in the numbers it was even though their country was having the hell bombed out of it.

The old chestnut of 'The USAAF said after the war strategic bombing had very little effect' is a joke!
Do you know about how the airforce gained control of the atomic weapons programs? They whined that conventional bombing had very little effect, and as soon as they had control of the atomic weapons the air force started writing plans to immediately use atomic weapons in a future war.

I have read Japanese accounts of the bombing of the Nagoya Mitsubishi plant. One raid by B29's and the plant was unable to produce for a week and after that NEVER made it back to full production. Or half production.

We do not want to hear about the Japs did not have the resources to build this plane or that! The resource system is already in the game so, unless you are saying that the screwed the resource system, what i choose to squander my resources on is my business.

In my scenario 26 there are no dead ends in the upgrade process.

Oh, and i also toned down the A7m which is the only Japanese aircraft overrated.

Mike



Mr.Frag -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 9:08:06 PM)

quote:

The other 4993 are IRRELEVENT because they don't care one way or the other.


You are beyond belief! So every person who simply how don't like jumping into a flame post is irrelevent? I'm sure they all have the same high opinion of you [8|]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Aircraft Upgrades (8/5/2004 9:08:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Or perhaps the other 4993 don't want to get into what is considered to be a fruitless debate. Some of us might be waiting until it appears that the debate might have a purpose.

Of course, if the "silent majority" never speaks up then they will become the "irrelevant majority." I would imagine that if Matrix/2by3 publicly announces their willingness to consider changing the issue, more players will become involved.


That's fair enough. But if you want a say so in a feature, speak up. If you don't until AFTER a decision gets made, you akin to the person who whines about their government representatives but never votes...



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