RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (Full Version)

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IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 5:38:44 AM)

quote:

Blumenson writes that Patton's referring to "John" in the letter to his wife was SHORTHAND. "Patton could hardly tell her about Hammelburg because of censorship" issues (p. 665). So he mentioned "John" so they both knew what they were referring to.

This did NOT mean he KNEW John was in the POW camp.


[&:]

Where does this come from?

Paton writes:

quote:

"We are headed right for John's place and may get there before he is moved".


You're telling us that because of censorship issues, Patton is using the word "John" as shorthand. Okay, then what Patton would have written but for censorship is:

"We are headed right for John Water's place (he's our son in law), and may get there before he is moved".

Then you say:

quote:

This did NOT mean he KNEW John was in the POW camp.


What on earth does it mean, then? As D'Este says,

quote:

"Patton perpetuated the fiction of Hammelburg at a press conference, in which he baldly deceived the correspondents by waiving his personal and official diaries in the air and claiming he had known nothing of Water's presence in Hammelburg until nine days after the raid. "


Even assuming this of yours is true:

quote:

So it is more than likely that Patton did not know for sure that John was in that POW camp.


He specifically mentions Waters (via shorthand) before the raid, then denies knowing anything about his presence after the raid. If he felt Waters might be in the camp, then he was clearly lying afterwards when claiming he knew nothing whatsoever about him being there.

I am tired of picking this sort of stuff apart. You jump through hoops attempting to defend the indefensible. As I said, let others judge.

Ironduke




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 5:44:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

Incorrect.

The 352nd Infantry Division was formed in the summer of 1943. Officially the unit was created on November 14th from various units from the Eastern Front involved in the Kursk Offensive. The end of the summer of 1943 saw the close of the Kursk Offensive on the Eastern Front. The losses during this operation added to the vast loss of men that year. As a result, a new wave of divisions were ordered to be raised for deployment by the spring of 1944. Infantrie Division 352 was to be among this number. The early fall of 1943 saw the formation of the nucleus of this division in the area surrounding St. Lo, occupied France.

Therefore, it was made up of experienced infantry who had served in Russia.


I'm not getting back in, I just wanted to smile at this, when you keep talking of stacking up evidence.

No sources listed: (I used Zetterling, Nafziger and Mitcham). No mention of which units were used to create it. (I mentioned the 321st). You say the division was formed in the summer, then say it was ordered to be formed after the losses of the summer. Then say formed in early fall of 1943.
Although it was only officially created on November 14th. By and large in my experience, units are usually officially created before they are actually created if anything, as the official creation might mean the assigning of a number, a Commander, a barracks and training area, and weapon transfers. The actual receipt of men into the unit happens afterwards, as they are received into the existing set up. This entire paragraph is self contradicting.

You call it a member of a "new wave" of divisions (ie newly formed), point out it was raised because of losses in Russia (lots of veterans killed), then say this new division was full of experienced infantry from Russia.

So, You eventually say:

quote:

Therefore, it was made up of experienced infantry who had served in Russia.


without telling us where these men had come from. I've pointed out where the experienced infantry came from and how few of them there were. The crazy thing is you seem to genuinely believe this makes sense, and that people can't see through this sort of reasoning and argument.

It's the real reason why I'm bailing out, your definition of evidence and the rules you use when gathering and presenting it are not ones I'm familiar with. We have no common definition of what evidence is or how it can be used. I am withdrawing, and others can decide (as they did in the Patton thread) which of us makes more sense. The above statement doesn't make internal sense, much less external. I present lots of facts, then get contradicted by a fact-less argument, then get called incorrect?
Which units did these infantry come from? What is your source for this claim?


There will be no answer, as there is no answer. I withdraw, because as RiverBravo said on page one

quote:

Good riddons to the patton thread.It was going in circles.

At least the Bismarck thread kept evolving.


I don't believe this thread should be spoiled for the others by us rehashing the same material from the other thread. Anyone who wants to know what evidence we have can re-read that thread if they wish, and judge which of us is correct. As I said, the above is the reason I will not debate with you. It isn't fair of you to simply say "You are incorrect" without proving why, or presenting something which does not address the point. In these circumstances, it is pointless to continue. Say what you will, I'm happy to allow others to judge.

IronDuke


LOL

One foot inside the boat; one foot outside the boat, eh? [;)]

LOL

This is the type of thing I got from you in that other thread.

In that other thread I ignored some of your posts because some of your commnets were ridiculous.

What I have shown in this thread, using just a few of my sources, is that I have shown your comments about Patton to be COMPLETELY WRONG.

Yet, you persist in perpetuating the same errors about Patton in this thread as you did in the other thread.

And quite frankly, some of your arguments about Patton (his seeking to get around the enemy - rather than fight them) shows a complete lack of understanding of Patton's methods of warfare and about the basic principles of blitzkrieg.

They are simply pointless and uninformed arguments. . . [8|]

So. . .

Are you in the boat or out of it. . . [8|]

How many times have you left these threads?




Jane Doe -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:19:03 AM)

if you're gonna kill this thread, at least kill it quickly
no need for 20 pages of long one-sided debate...[sm=00000007.gif]




Sarge -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 7:06:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jane Doe

if you're gonna kill this thread, at least kill it quickly
no need for 20 pages of long one-sided debate...[sm=00000007.gif]

[sm=00000734.gif]




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:18:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

Incorrect.

The 352nd Infantry Division was formed in the summer of 1943. Officially the unit was created on November 14th from various units from the Eastern Front involved in the Kursk Offensive. The end of the summer of 1943 saw the close of the Kursk Offensive on the Eastern Front. The losses during this operation added to the vast loss of men that year. As a result, a new wave of divisions were ordered to be raised for deployment by the spring of 1944. Infantrie Division 352 was to be among this number. The early fall of 1943 saw the formation of the nucleus of this division in the area surrounding St. Lo, occupied France.

Therefore, it was made up of experienced infantry who had served in Russia.


I'm not getting back in, I just wanted to smile at this, when you keep talking of stacking up evidence.

No sources listed: (I used Zetterling, Nafziger and Mitcham). No mention of which units were used to create it. (I mentioned the 321st). You say the division was formed in the summer, then say it was ordered to be formed after the losses of the summer. Then say formed in early fall of 1943.
Although it was only officially created on November 14th. By and large in my experience, units are usually officially created before they are actually created if anything, as the official creation might mean the assigning of a number, a Commander, a barracks and training area, and weapon transfers. The actual receipt of men into the unit happens afterwards, as they are received into the existing set up. This entire paragraph is self contradicting.

You call it a member of a "new wave" of divisions (ie newly formed), point out it was raised because of losses in Russia (lots of veterans killed), then say this new division was full of experienced infantry from Russia.

So, You eventually say:

quote:

Therefore, it was made up of experienced infantry who had served in Russia.


without telling us where these men had come from. I've pointed out where the experienced infantry came from and how few of them there were. The crazy thing is you seem to genuinely believe this makes sense, and that people can't see through this sort of reasoning and argument.

It's the real reason why I'm bailing out, your definition of evidence and the rules you use when gathering and presenting it are not ones I'm familiar with. We have no common definition of what evidence is or how it can be used. I am withdrawing, and others can decide (as they did in the Patton thread) which of us makes more sense. The above statement doesn't make internal sense, much less external. I present lots of facts, then get contradicted by a fact-less argument, then get called incorrect?
Which units did these infantry come from? What is your source for this claim?


There will be no answer, as there is no answer. I withdraw, because as RiverBravo said on page one

quote:

Good riddons to the patton thread.It was going in circles.

At least the Bismarck thread kept evolving.


I don't believe this thread should be spoiled for the others by us rehashing the same material from the other thread. Anyone who wants to know what evidence we have can re-read that thread if they wish, and judge which of us is correct. As I said, the above is the reason I will not debate with you. It isn't fair of you to simply say "You are incorrect" without proving why, or presenting something which does not address the point. In these circumstances, it is pointless to continue. Say what you will, I'm happy to allow others to judge.

IronDuke



The 352nd division was formed from elements of troops who fought in Russia, thus they were veterans. The division kept absorbing troops, and on D-Day were actually in the process of training for an invasion.

Regardless of whether they were 80 years old, or elite veterans, so many American troops were being killed on Omaha beach, that Bradley considered pulling them off the beach.

Leaving again?

Bye. . .

See ya. . .




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:27:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

Blumenson writes that Patton's referring to "John" in the letter to his wife was SHORTHAND. "Patton could hardly tell her about Hammelburg because of censorship" issues (p. 665). So he mentioned "John" so they both knew what they were referring to.

This did NOT mean he KNEW John was in the POW camp.


[&:]

Where does this come from?

Paton writes:

quote:

"We are headed right for John's place and may get there before he is moved".


You're telling us that because of censorship issues, Patton is using the word "John" as shorthand. Okay, then what Patton would have written but for censorship is:

"We are headed right for John Water's place (he's our son in law), and may get there before he is moved".

Then you say:

quote:

This did NOT mean he KNEW John was in the POW camp.


What on earth does it mean, then? As D'Este says,

quote:

"Patton perpetuated the fiction of Hammelburg at a press conference, in which he baldly deceived the correspondents by waiving his personal and official diaries in the air and claiming he had known nothing of Water's presence in Hammelburg until nine days after the raid. "


Even assuming this of yours is true:

quote:

So it is more than likely that Patton did not know for sure that John was in that POW camp.


He specifically mentions Waters (via shorthand) before the raid, then denies knowing anything about his presence after the raid. If he felt Waters might be in the camp, then he was clearly lying afterwards when claiming he knew nothing whatsoever about him being there.

I am tired of picking this sort of stuff apart. You jump through hoops attempting to defend the indefensible. As I said, let others judge.

Ironduke



Ironduke:

Blumenson writes in the "Patton Papers", that when Patton wrote to his wife about "John" it was just shorthand to let his wife know that Patton had sent troops to Hammelburg. Due to censorship issues he could not write about Hammelburg and the American POWs.

In many subsequent correspondence, Patton clearly indicates that he NEVER REALLY KNEW FOR SURE John was in the POW camp.

Blumenson shows that Patton wrote other correspondence proving he didn't know John was in the POW, which D'Este ignores, thus giving us the WRONG impression that Patton DID know.

Even though D'Este gives a slanted and erroneous view about Hammelburg, he still makes it VERY clear that it is ALL circumstantial evidence - which proves NOTHING.

I would suggest you read:

Martin Blumenson & George S. Patton, The Patton Papers 1940-1945; Da Capo Press; (October 1, 1996) and pages 664-676 for the full story.




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:31:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jane Doe

if you're gonna kill this thread, at least kill it quickly
no need for 20 pages of long one-sided debate...[sm=00000007.gif]


Ahhh, the peanut gallery. . .

Right on time too.

So. . .

When there's clear evidence against Ironduke's opinions about Patton - you make an appearance. . . [8|]




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:34:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jane Doe

if you're gonna kill this thread, at least kill it quickly
no need for 20 pages of long one-sided debate...[sm=00000007.gif]

[sm=00000734.gif]



Ahhh, the peanut gallery (Part Deux). . .

Right on time too.

Interesting sign you're carrying. . . LOL (You know what they say - "Birds of a feather stick together").

So. . .

You were proved wrong about Patton's attack on Bastogne.

So instead of re-considering your opinions about Patton, just attack the messenger. . . [8|]

By all means. . .




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:43:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

I totally agree I can bee rude. This can happen if I get too excited (and I am always sorry for this), or if someone is rude towards me first. The latter fits you from the Patton thread, and it fits in this thread as well. But I do apologize if you were offended by my reference to "fanatics". I used an [:D] to indicate to readers not to take it too seriously. Also, I explained to you in the Patton thread why I used this phrase. And I find you to be rude against pretty much anyone who challenge your arguments, which is sad. And I cannot for these reasons treat you with respect. It is comments like "Understand?" (you answering me), and "LOL" etc (Iron Duke) that may be found unessecary aggressive and rude (in that order) by some. Atleast to me.

As to the Extra manpower, I dont know what you mean. Do you believe all soldiers are sorted under a division? If so, you are mistaken, and very much so as I have pointed out. You have your divisions and then you have your independent battalions/brigades/other sized units that, I guess, provied flexibility to an army. And of cource some would be just natural to deploy independently like heavy AA etc.



quote:

I totally agree I can bee rude. This can happen if I get too excited (and I am always sorry for this), or if someone is rude towards me first. The latter fits you from the Patton thread, and it fits in this thread as well. But I do apologize if you were offended by my reference to "fanatics". I used an [:D] to indicate to readers not to take it too seriously. Also, I explained to you in the Patton thread why I used this phrase. And I find you to be rude against pretty much anyone who challenge your arguments, which is sad. And I cannot for these reasons treat you with respect. It is comments like "Understand?" (you answering me), and "LOL" etc (Iron Duke) that may be found unessecary aggressive and rude (in that order) by some. Atleast to me.


That thread was closed and long gone.

So you dig up an excuse to be rude to me (the "American fanatics" comment?) in this thread? For NO reason?

Also, in the other thread, you said a great deal more personal things about me.

You're not going to show me any respect?

OK buster - you get none in return.

Understand?

BTW, everyone is being treated EXACTLY as they have treated me. . .


quote:

As to the Extra manpower, I dont know what you mean. Do you believe all soldiers are sorted under a division? If so, you are mistaken, and very much so as I have pointed out. You have your divisions and then you have your independent battalions/brigades/other sized units that, I guess, provied flexibility to an army. And of cource some would be just natural to deploy independently like heavy AA etc.



I'm asking you for the THIRD time.

What is your source for this information?

You mention that in July there were 500,000 EXTRA Allied troops milling about Normandy in "Independent Units".

Where is your PROOF?

Is this too difficult for you to understand?




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 9:00:46 AM)

Here are two books that I would recommend people read if they desire more info about Patton:


1) Martin Blumenson & George S. Patton, The Patton Papers 1940-1945; Da Capo Press; (October 1, 1996)

This book is a massive work containing Patton's personal letters and diaries. Here, in Patton's own words, you can read about what really went on during the war.

And yes, Operation Cobra, which Bradley took credit for, was actually the brain child of Patton. . .


2) Ladislas, Farago, Patton: Ordeal and Triumph (New York: Astor-Honor, Inc., 1964)

This is the book upon which the movie "Patton" was based. Extremely well written, it is an eye-opener about the REAL Patton and what really happened.




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 9:08:26 AM)

Also, I did a bit more research about Patton's death. And this is what I found out:


1) We all know how Patton died - the car he was driving in was struck by a truck. Of all the passengers in the car ONLY Patton was seriously injured. He died a few days later of his injuries.


2) Previous to this car accident (and depicted in the movie "Patton"), a heavy oxcart somehow broke free, rolled down a side street, and narrowly missed striking and killing Patton by inches.


3) Previous to this oxcart incident, Patton wrote in his Diary, April 11, 1945:

"There is a persistent rumor of a German attempt to murder somebody, possibly myself, by a small glider-borne operation. Everybody but Willie and me is nervous about this. However, I do take my carbine to my truck at night now" (Martin Blumenson & George S. Patton, The Patton Papers 1940-1945; Da Capo Press; (October 1, 1996); pp.682-3).


4) A few days later Patton wrote in his Diary, April 20, 1945:

"We flew from there to the Headquarters of the III Corps [in an L-5 cub]. . . Just before we got there, a plane which looked like a Spitfire made three passes at us, but was unsuccessful. On the third pass, it flew so close to the ground that it could not pull out and crashed. The plane in this group had RAF markings on them, and I believe they were probably a Polish unit flying for the RAF. Why they were out of their area, I don't know" (Martin Blumenson & George S. Patton, The Patton Papers 1940-1945; Da Capo Press; (October 1, 1996); p.691).


5) Martin Blumenson, a well respected historian and the author of more than a dozen books, expands on this Spitfire attack:

"From there, he [Patton] was proceeding to the III Corps headquarters [in a small plane] when a British Spitfire with markings indicating it was being flown by a Polish pilot inexplicably made THREE passes at Patton's small plane, firing its machine guns. Patton's pilot, taking evasive action, descended close to the ground. The Spitfire, pursuing, was unable to pull out of its dive and crashed, killing the pilot. The event was disturbing. Was someone trying to assassinate Patton?" (Patton: The Man Behind the Legend, pp.265-266).


6) Look at the date of this Spitfire attack on Patton. The date is April 20. This is the date of Hitler's birthday. But this does not necessarily mean the pilot flying the plane was German.


7) On July 4, 1945, Patton knew he was going to die:

"When Beatrice was out of the room, Patton said to his daughters,'Well, goodbye girls. I won't be seeing you again. Take care of George. I'll be seeing your mother, but I won't be seeing you.'

"One of them said that he was being silly; the war was over.

"'No,' he said. 'I mean it. I have a feeling that my luck has run out at last.'

"A man, he said, was born with a certain amount of luck [and]. . . . His own reservoir was going dry. The last few shells that had struck near him in the final months of the war seemed to land closer to him. He had narrowly escaped death twice - when a Polish pilot flying an RAF plane had. . . tried to kill him, and when his automobile barely missed a long pole in a German oxcart. He was sure that the end of his life was fast approaching" (Martin Blumenson & George S. Patton, The Patton Papers 1940-1945; Da Capo Press; (October 1, 1996); p.723).


8) In 1978, a political thriller, called Brass Target, starring George Kennedy and Sophia Loren was released in theatres. It was a fictionalised account of the mysterious death of US war hero General Patton. The central story revolved around an assassination attempt on General Patton.




Belisarius -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 11:20:52 AM)

We're getting a bit offtopic here discussing details of D-day units, but the 21st Panzer was (as you already pointed out) close enough to interfere with the landings. Had the OKH and OK West only made up its mind when the first reports from 716th came in, the 21st could (theoretically) have reached the coast already in late morning, before the US troops had secured the Utah bridgehead. As it was, it lingered until well after 10 in the morning before OK West decided that this indeed was The Invasion. I wonder if OKH shared that impression even a week after... [8|]

Disregarding their composition and OOB, neither the 352nd nor 716th ID were considered ready for combat.




Error in 0 -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 3:22:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

We're getting a bit offtopic here discussing details of D-day units, but the 21st Panzer was (as you already pointed out) close enough to interfere with the landings. Had the OKH and OK West only made up its mind when the first reports from 716th came in, the 21st could (theoretically) have reached the coast already in late morning, before the US troops had secured the Utah bridgehead. As it was, it lingered until well after 10 in the morning before OK West decided that this indeed was The Invasion. I wonder if OKH shared that impression even a week after... [8|]

Disregarding their composition and OOB, neither the 352nd nor 716th ID were considered ready for combat.


I doubt that 12SS would have been attacing any US beachead if they were released. The germans believed the US beacheads to be stuck (for a while at least), and the GB and Canadian beaches was far more pressing issues for them. This is illustrated by the fact that 915. regiment of the 352 div. was during night sent towards carentan, but was later ordered to go back towards the GB beacheads. I believe 12SS would have attacked west of Orne river while the 21Pz attacking paratroopers east of Orne, securing the brigdes.

As it turned out, the 21Pz were splitted into 2 groups, and the main groupe set out of action for most of the day as gen. Marcks ordered them towards the beaches (back to Caen, and then west of Orne). The panzers of 21pz reached Périer area (how close to the beach is that?), while a battallion of 192. pz.grenadier managed to reach Lion-sur-Mer (they joined the 21. in their attack), to relieve 736. regiment. However, that would not last for long..

The 21Pz did not do well that day. The force east of Orne was too small to manage to take the brigdes, and the main force west of Orne met much stronger forces, and Feuchtinger (commander 21.) was severly questioned by the SS officers for his performance.

As to making up minds. Imagine how difficult it was for them to do so. Most believed this to be a false manouvre, and the real attack would come at Calaise (Was it only vonRundstedt of the higher commands who immidiatelyt understood this was the real thing?). Then there were reports from all over Normandie of enemy activity as the allied Paratroopers were scattered around along with the dolls that were dropped. Then the Partisan activity breaking up communications. The the surprise of the attack in the first place as the weather was considered too bad for an invasion. If only the germans had better spies in england...




Belisarius -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 4:22:02 PM)

The paratrooper landings had a good impact on German confusion. First there were reports on major air landings and scattered firefights, then reports started coming in that the "paratroopers" were just dummies. I wonder if they considered it could be both?

Back to Rommel-related things. I question just bubbled to the surface, and I can't recall ever having read/seen anything about this: Rommel left for Germany on June 4th to celebrate his wife's birthday. This move could probably have been anticipated by any half-wit allied Intelligence Officer. Did the Allied command calculate on Rommel being out of office during those cruical days, or did they just luck out? I understand weather conditions, moon cycles and general preparations set the schedule but..




EricGuitarJames -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 4:34:20 PM)

My reading is they 'lucked out'. Rommel wasn't the 'bogey man' he'd become in the Western Desert by 1944.




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:12:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

We're getting a bit offtopic here discussing details of D-day units, but the 21st Panzer was (as you already pointed out) close enough to interfere with the landings. Had the OKH and OK West only made up its mind when the first reports from 716th came in, the 21st could (theoretically) have reached the coast already in late morning, before the US troops had secured the Utah bridgehead. As it was, it lingered until well after 10 in the morning before OK West decided that this indeed was The Invasion. I wonder if OKH shared that impression even a week after... [8|]

Disregarding their composition and OOB, neither the 352nd nor 716th ID were considered ready for combat.


Hi [:)]

Well, I won't argue the composition of the 352nd.

But it is interesting that the troops that made up this division were delivering such devastating fire upon the Americans at Omaha, and that so many US troops were being killed, that Bradley almost ordered their evacuation. So it looks as though the 352nd knew how to shoot.

Given that situation at Omaha, I think Rommel's plan of attacking the beach heads had merit. If the beach landings had been stopped, then the D-Day landings would have been called off.

Also, having the German troops fighting close to the Allied troops on the beaches would have helped negate naval bombardment and air attack.

The Germans clearly had the troops in Normandy to pull this off.

Once again Hitler's interference with Rommel's plan paid off for the Allies.

Cheers!




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:26:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

Back to Rommel-related things. I question just bubbled to the surface, and I can't recall ever having read/seen anything about this: Rommel left for Germany on June 4th to celebrate his wife's birthday. This move could probably have been anticipated by any half-wit allied Intelligence Officer. Did the Allied command calculate on Rommel being out of office during those cruical days, or did they just luck out? I understand weather conditions, moon cycles and general preparations set the schedule but..


Yes, this is interesting.

There are a lot of interesting situations that arose during the war for which I have not seen much discussions about.

For example:

1) The attempts on Patton's life (as I indicated above). What really happened? Who was trying to kill him?

2) Were there spies at some level within the Allied High Command? I note that on many occasions information about secret Allied operations just happened to get "leaked" either to the public or to the Germans.

3) Why was no investigation done about General Hodges Lee? He makes the Don Rickles character in "Kelly's Heroes" look like a Sunday School preacher. He used hundreds of trucks to move his bloated staff to secure hundreds of the best hotels in Paris (and using thousands of gallons of gas) at the same time as Patton's Third Army sputtered to a halt just before the Mosselle River. . .

Cheers!




VicKevlar -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:29:01 PM)

You know what.............patience is gone. David gave the big warning last thread and Marc locked it. Apparently those actions didn't sink in.............wanna guess what the next step is?




Error in 0 -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:34:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

The paratrooper landings had a good impact on German confusion. First there were reports on major air landings and scattered firefights, then reports started coming in that the "paratroopers" were just dummies. I wonder if they considered it could be both?

Back to Rommel-related things. I question just bubbled to the surface, and I can't recall ever having read/seen anything about this: Rommel left for Germany on June 4th to celebrate his wife's birthday. This move could probably have been anticipated by any half-wit allied Intelligence Officer. Did the Allied command calculate on Rommel being out of office during those cruical days, or did they just luck out? I understand weather conditions, moon cycles and general preparations set the schedule but..


Incidentally, I believe general Marcks had his birthday this day as well :)




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:37:03 PM)

DP




Error in 0 -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 6:55:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

My reading is they 'lucked out'. Rommel wasn't the 'bogey man' he'd become in the Western Desert by 1944.


Did the allies fear any specific ger commander on the western front? Or was it more a general consern about the german fighting ability? Im sure they were conserned prior to D-Day, although they believed they would pull it off.

Rommel was away from the front for 2 reasons: visit his wife and also to speak to Hitler in person. I believe it was another attempt to get approval for his idea of moving panzers closer to the coast, but maybe someone can fill me inn. He was apparently very sad for not being there when the s*** hit the fan, so to speak, and he believed the defense would have been better if he were present (of course).

Having the Panzers closer to the beach would make it possible for an early beachhead attack, but I think it was Duke who pointed out that Rommel did not appreciate the power of naval fire. I may be mistaken, but was not Rommel present at the italy landings? He had a short commission in Italy at least. However, the Italy landings showed that naval bombarbment made it next to impossible for tanks to get to the actual beach head (they never did make it in Italy), and I believe this to be especially true for Normandy. Maybe any landing were doomed to success unless the germans could participate in a naval combat (which they of course could not)? How sure was Rommel that an immediate counterattack at the beaches was going to be a success?




IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 7:44:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

We're getting a bit offtopic here discussing details of D-day units, but the 21st Panzer was (as you already pointed out) close enough to interfere with the landings. Had the OKH and OK West only made up its mind when the first reports from 716th came in, the 21st could (theoretically) have reached the coast already in late morning, before the US troops had secured the Utah bridgehead. As it was, it lingered until well after 10 in the morning before OK West decided that this indeed was The Invasion. I wonder if OKH shared that impression even a week after... [8|]

Disregarding their composition and OOB, neither the 352nd nor 716th ID were considered ready for combat.



Agreed re the 352nd, the evidence is overwhelming. There was a smal cadre of veterans from the 321st but nothing more. I think the division was classed combat ready because the majority although new recruits were considered able, they weren't walking wounded or old men.

However, their training was inadequate and further training hampered by the (necessary) building work Rommel demanded of them. My own belief is that the 352 myth is largely a result of what happened on Omaha. As historians look at what happened, they then search for answers, and see that the 352 was not a static formation. I think the real reasons behind Omaha lie elsewhere, and don't have much to do with the 352.

The problem for the 21st based around Caen, was that it took several hours to work out what was happening. Elements could have been in action as early as 04.00 - 05.00 I think, if they were given the orders. At that time, British paratroopers were confirmed alll over the place east of the Orne. However, as the situation was assessed, the unit finally got its orders and concentrated for the attack against the paras, only for 84 Korp/7 Armee to decide the coast was suddenly more important, but this left the 21st attempting to reconcentrate around Lebisey wood moving in daylight, through the centre of a bombed and jam packed Caen. I think the sheer number of targets confused the Germans, and the knowledge the 21st was all they had prevented a swift deployment.

Regards,
Ironduke




IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 7:49:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

We're getting a bit offtopic here discussing details of D-day units, but the 21st Panzer was (as you already pointed out) close enough to interfere with the landings. Had the OKH and OK West only made up its mind when the first reports from 716th came in, the 21st could (theoretically) have reached the coast already in late morning, before the US troops had secured the Utah bridgehead. As it was, it lingered until well after 10 in the morning before OK West decided that this indeed was The Invasion. I wonder if OKH shared that impression even a week after... [8|]

Disregarding their composition and OOB, neither the 352nd nor 716th ID were considered ready for combat.


I doubt that 12SS would have been attacing any US beachead if they were released. The germans believed the US beacheads to be stuck (for a while at least), and the GB and Canadian beaches was far more pressing issues for them. This is illustrated by the fact that 915. regiment of the 352 div. was during night sent towards carentan, but was later ordered to go back towards the GB beacheads. I believe 12SS would have attacked west of Orne river while the 21Pz attacking paratroopers east of Orne, securing the brigdes.

As it turned out, the 21Pz were splitted into 2 groups, and the main groupe set out of action for most of the day as gen. Marcks ordered them towards the beaches (back to Caen, and then west of Orne). The panzers of 21pz reached Périer area (how close to the beach is that?), while a battallion of 192. pz.grenadier managed to reach Lion-sur-Mer (they joined the 21. in their attack), to relieve 736. regiment. However, that would not last for long..

The 21Pz did not do well that day. The force east of Orne was too small to manage to take the brigdes, and the main force west of Orne met much stronger forces, and Feuchtinger (commander 21.) was severly questioned by the SS officers for his performance.

As to making up minds. Imagine how difficult it was for them to do so. Most believed this to be a false manouvre, and the real attack would come at Calaise (Was it only vonRundstedt of the higher commands who immidiatelyt understood this was the real thing?). Then there were reports from all over Normandie of enemy activity as the allied Paratroopers were scattered around along with the dolls that were dropped. Then the Partisan activity breaking up communications. The the surprise of the attack in the first place as the weather was considered too bad for an invasion. If only the germans had better spies in england...


Agreed re the 12th. The advance recon element of the 12th SS arrived and watched the action on Gold Beach unfold. It was always going to secure Caen upon arrival.

I agree re the 21st. Von Luck criticised everyone after the war because he was held back from attacking the paras in the Orne bridgehead, but as events proved, the Commander of the 21st could not afford to commit his men until he knew exactly what was happening. Had he gone all out for the paras, he would never have been able to stop any of the beach landings, and when he decided the beaches were the more pressing target, it took time to concentrate his troops under allied air interdiction. There wasn't an easy or correct option for him in the circumstances.

Regards,
IronDuke




IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 7:54:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

The paratrooper landings had a good impact on German confusion. First there were reports on major air landings and scattered firefights, then reports started coming in that the "paratroopers" were just dummies. I wonder if they considered it could be both?

Back to Rommel-related things. I question just bubbled to the surface, and I can't recall ever having read/seen anything about this: Rommel left for Germany on June 4th to celebrate his wife's birthday. This move could probably have been anticipated by any half-wit allied Intelligence Officer. Did the Allied command calculate on Rommel being out of office during those cruical days, or did they just luck out? I understand weather conditions, moon cycles and general preparations set the schedule but..


Rommel went to meet with Hitler, but left early in order to first meet up with his wife for her birthday. I don't know if the Allies were aware of this but I don't think it had any impact on their decision. Rommel went because his own weather reports indicated the next few days would not be suitable for an invasion. The lack of German recconnaisance in the Atlantic and the scarcity of U-boats now operating there meant German meteorologists were not getting the quality of data available to the Allies, and missed the window in the weather which Eisenhower was briefed about and decided to use.

Regards,
IronDuke




IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 7:56:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

The paratrooper landings had a good impact on German confusion. First there were reports on major air landings and scattered firefights, then reports started coming in that the "paratroopers" were just dummies. I wonder if they considered it could be both?

Back to Rommel-related things. I question just bubbled to the surface, and I can't recall ever having read/seen anything about this: Rommel left for Germany on June 4th to celebrate his wife's birthday. This move could probably have been anticipated by any half-wit allied Intelligence Officer. Did the Allied command calculate on Rommel being out of office during those cruical days, or did they just luck out? I understand weather conditions, moon cycles and general preparations set the schedule but..


Incidentally, I believe general Marcks had his birthday this day as well :)



Indeed, and several Officers had ignored 7 Armee orders and left their HQs for some scheduled wargames early. It was a catalogue of problems for the Germans.

Regards,
IronDuke




Error in 0 -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:05:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius
We're getting a bit offtopic here ...

I doubt that 12SS would have been ...


Agreed re the 12th. The advance recon element of the 12th SS arrived and watched the action on Gold Beach unfold. It was always going to secure Caen upon arrival.

I agree re the 21st. Von Luck criticised everyone after the war because he was held back from attacking the paras in the Orne bridgehead, but as events proved, the Commander of the 21st could not afford to commit his men until he knew exactly what was happening. Had he gone all out for the paras, he would never have been able to stop any of the beach landings, and when he decided the beaches were the more pressing target, it took time to concentrate his troops under allied air interdiction. There wasn't an easy or correct option for him in the circumstances.

Regards,
IronDuke



It was my understanding that the decision to go for the beaches was Gen Marcks, not Feuchtinger's.

Does anyone have a web site over the OOB's in Normandie?




IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:07:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

My reading is they 'lucked out'. Rommel wasn't the 'bogey man' he'd become in the Western Desert by 1944.


Did the allies fear any specific ger commander on the western front? Or was it more a general consern about the german fighting ability? Im sure they were conserned prior to D-Day, although they believed they would pull it off.

Rommel was away from the front for 2 reasons: visit his wife and also to speak to Hitler in person. I believe it was another attempt to get approval for his idea of moving panzers closer to the coast, but maybe someone can fill me inn. He was apparently very sad for not being there when the s*** hit the fan, so to speak, and he believed the defense would have been better if he were present (of course).

Having the Panzers closer to the beach would make it possible for an early beachhead attack, but I think it was Duke who pointed out that Rommel did not appreciate the power of naval fire. I may be mistaken, but was not Rommel present at the italy landings? He had a short commission in Italy at least. However, the Italy landings showed that naval bombarbment made it next to impossible for tanks to get to the actual beach head (they never did make it in Italy), and I believe this to be especially true for Normandy. Maybe any landing were doomed to success unless the germans could participate in a naval combat (which they of course could not)? How sure was Rommel that an immediate counterattack at the beaches was going to be a success?


I'm not sure how much experience he had of naval gunfire, I'd guess not much. It was Allied air power he really feared after his experiences in the desert. I think what he ultimately wanted were layered defences, of the type found best found in Normandy behind Sword beach. After the beach defences, the inland defensive strongpoints (codenamed Morris and Hillman) together with minefields and resistance nests. I think ultimately, he felt that fixed defences would so tie down the attackers, that the Armoured counterattacks would be delivered into relatively small and siorganised bridgeheads.

Remember, the 12th SS arrived during the night and fought a night action against the Canadians. Had the Canadians been much closer the beach, working their way through a belt of defences several miles deep, 12th SS Armour and Pzgr would have crashed into a very precarious situation for the Allies during the evening when accurate naval gun support would have been much harder.

I think all the main Allied Commanders were wary of German tactical abilities. I think it helps explain both Montgomery's and Patton's actions. Montgomery built up overwhelming force to overcome German tactical ability, Patton manoeuvred and avoided direct confrontation to overcome it. Patton had a couple of interesting remarks about his opinion on American infantry and I think in his own way, he was trying as hard as Monty to compensate for what he saw as a German advantage.

Regards,
IronDuke




IronDuke_slith -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/6/2004 8:18:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belisarius
We're getting a bit offtopic here ...

I doubt that 12SS would have been ...


Agreed re the 12th. The advance recon element of the 12th SS arrived and watched the action on Gold Beach unfold. It was always going to secure Caen upon arrival.

I agree re the 21st. Von Luck criticised everyone after the war because he was held back from attacking the paras in the Orne bridgehead, but as events proved, the Commander of the 21st could not afford to commit his men until he knew exactly what was happening. Had he gone all out for the paras, he would never have been able to stop any of the beach landings, and when he decided the beaches were the more pressing target, it took time to concentrate his troops under allied air interdiction. There wasn't an easy or correct option for him in the circumstances.

Regards,
IronDuke



It was my understanding that the decision to go for the beaches was Gen Marcks, not Feuchtinger's.

Does anyone have a web site over the OOB's in Normandie?


21st Panzer was 7 Armee reserve, so Marks at 84 Korp had no control over it, although elements of the 21st were designated as the mobile reserve for 716 ID and were duly committed after the 716 requested it's help east of the Orne.

Around 06.00, 7 Armee seems to have agreed with the 21st Commanders on the ground that a counterattack could be launched against the Orne bridgeheads, but the traffic chaos in Caen meant it was closer to 10.00 before everyone was ready and concentrated. There was some brief fighting, but by 10.00AM the 352 and 716 were reporting armour breaking through the defences on what were Gold and Juno and 7 Armee decided to shift the 21st Panzer against the beaches west of the Orne. This involved another difficult move back through Caen, and it was 15.00 before the Commanders of the 21st met in Lebisey wood for the pre-attack briefing. It was about 16.00 before they got going. They launched 4 KGs, at least one of which did reach the coast at Lion Sur Mer, but was unsupported and had to fall back.

Regards,
IronDuke




mbMike -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/7/2004 5:12:21 AM)

We forget one thing.

"Haha! Rommel, you son of a bitch!!! .............I read your book!" - Patton




Von Rom -> RE: Who was better: Patton or Rommel (8/7/2004 8:37:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbMike

We forget one thing.

"Haha! Rommel, you son of a bitch!!! .............I read your book!" - Patton



Heheh

Those are words sweet and dear to my heart [:)]




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