RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (Full Version)

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PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 6:53:45 PM)

I've always considered the King Tiger as more of a Panther II than a Tiger II.
Tiger I didn't even have sloping armour and belonged to the 'box' shaped tanks.



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 6:58:41 PM)

Much more modern looking tank, not to mention more effective...

Then with the Jagdtiger and Sturmtiger, they went back to the box-on-treads approach.



PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 7:07:33 PM)

The Panther II would have been the logical successor to both the King Tiger and Panther:

1943 - German Panther II PzKw 5 Ausf F
Armament; 1 - 7.5cm (3") KwK 42 L/70 gun
1 - 7.92mm MG 34
Engine: Maybach, HL 234, V-12, gas, 800 hp
Speed: 29 mph
Range: 110 miles
Crew: 5
Weight: 57 tons

When production of the Panther began in 1943, plans were made for a Panther II with heavier frontal and side armor but capable of the same performance as the Panther I. This was an attempt to create a hybrid vehicle which combined components from early Panther tanks with those of the yet to be built Tiger II. Two prototypes were ordered, and one with a normal Panther I turret was delivered. The Panther II was to be equipped with an improved Schmalturm. Only one specimen remains which was recovered from an artillery range in Lackhill England. See photo by Andrew Longstaff. This compact turret with a built in rangefinder was designed by Daimler Benz for the Panther Ausf F. It was to mount a modified version of the 75mm gun known as the KwK 44/1. This Panther II at Ft. Knox, Kentucky, is the sole survivor. Weight increased to 57 tons and the prototype used the running gear of the King Tiger. Only 7 wheels per side were used and were staggered to enable the use of a single torsion bar. Hydraulic steering with a reinforced gear box was used. The project was abandoned and many of the advanced features such as all steel road wheels and deeply sloped armor were incorporated into the Model G Panther I in late production models.

[image]local://upfiles/1466/6BEF4CB2E9E34F8CA82F82FFB4120ADB.jpg[/image]



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 7:19:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Much more modern looking tank, not to mention more effective...



against which tank are you referring/comparing? [&:]



PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 7:59:02 PM)

The Tiger II was one of the best heavy tanks of the war together with:
KV-85
JSIII
Centurion
Pershing

These are all 'medium' tanks compared to the 70 ton Tiger II, but they were all heavy tanks when
you compare them to other Allied tanks of the time.

It arrived quite early though and was best suited in a defensive role. The Panther was much
more suited for offensive operations and the Panther II would have been a match for any Allied tank
in 1945. Love playing 1945 battles in Steel Panthers World at War were these tanks clash [8D]



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:02:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Much more modern looking tank, not to mention more effective...



against which tank are you referring/comparing? [&:]


The Tiger I.



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:05:58 PM)

Yes, but if Termy was comparing the Tiger I to II, i'd probably disagree a bit on the "more effective part" While an awesome and beatiful tank, armed with the best anti-tank gun of the war, I often considered it just way to big and complicated to be considered "more effective". The Tiger 1 may have been boxy, but it made up for it in part with the thickness and quality of the armor and the tank driver could at least present on oblique target to whatever threat was being faced increasing the armor value even more. The 88 was less powerful than the 71cal but at the time was deadly enough to take out hundreds of enemy tanks over the course of it's career.

The King Tiger has even more impressive armor on the front and sloped (if quality is a bit less) but this is negated in part by the huge side profle which is no better protected than the Tiger I's.

Because of this i'll usually pick the JS-III as the best heavy tank. The Soviets well understood the value of low profile and cost effectiveness. The Germans though can be given kudos for producing the best positioned heavy tank in terms of time period in the Tiger I. Beats out all the other heavy tanks because the Germans seem to be the only ones who realized at the time that you need a gun powerful enough to enhance your armor protection by allowing you to stand off from the enemy. That was the KV-1's biggest failing as well as the Churchill's.....no better armed than a medium forcing them to fight at closer range.

LoL...this seems to get borne out in every SP game i play. Whenever i have a KT group, i always lose them to either air or side shot attacks. I have better luck with Tiger I's [:D]



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:09:53 PM)

Interesting how this WitP AAR has turned into a discussion of German tanks, just because somebody's pilot pool overflowed.[:D]

If you give me a choice between Tiger I and Tiger II, I'll still take the Tiger II. Bigger gun, properly sloped armour (which can be the difference between life and death)... The only problem was that it was too big, as Nik pointed out...




PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:35:27 PM)

The Panther II with the 88 would be the perfect combo of Panther and Tiger [8D]
After years of UV and WitP I do miss Eastern Front....and I wish Matrix could get some more resources for it [&o]
Playing around with Stuarts and even more obscure Jap tanks just doesn't do the trick <G>





Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:36:18 PM)

The Type 92 Tankette not good enough for you?[:'(]



PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:40:18 PM)

After riding the gun barel of this? [8|]

[image]local://upfiles/1466/8C376D608A1D45348CB6FC76FAEAAF22.jpg[/image]



Mynok -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:42:20 PM)


What are you riding in the lower left corner there? Is that a Grant?



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:42:31 PM)

You don't have Steel Panthers??

Eastern front games are fun but at the operational level, the differences in tanks tends to get blurred to the point where you don't really notice their individual impact. (least i never really noticed one in Second Front/War in Russia)




Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:43:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Type 92 Tankette not good enough for you?[:'(]


If i'm in Malaya and have to travel down a small muddy trail, yeah, i'll take the Type 92's.....the KT's will all be stuck in the mud and out of the battle. [:D]



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 8:57:03 PM)

So would you, being as heavy as a Tiger II...



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 9:01:31 PM)

Which still weighs less than you, on par with a Jagd-Tiger

Your probably familiar with the BEEP BEEP BEEP sound the big rigs make whenever you have to back up.




Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 9:10:26 PM)

Pffft... You're fat enough that the astro-nerds were considering declaring you a planet recently...



PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 9:39:13 PM)

If possible I would have started a research program for airborne King Tigers!
Even if you miss the enemy, it should be possible to plant a new 'Gustav Line' anywere within 48 hours.

Yep, that's a Grant in the background...strangely enough I was more interested in the Panther, Jagdpanter, Tiger, King Tigerm, Jagdtiger and Stugs. Evil Empires always make a lot of kewl stuff [8|]

Here's a rare sight: a KV

[image]local://upfiles/1466/E1DF874ED5DF4E30B6C050A2DB028D44.jpg[/image]



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 9:54:59 PM)

Didn't think there were any of those around anymore...



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 10:11:35 PM)

Beautiful.





Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 10:20:27 PM)

Nerd.[:'(]



Mynok -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 10:21:43 PM)


Wow......as many years as I've been playing SL, ASL, SPWAW........I don't think I've ever noticed that the KV-1 didn't have a T-34 style suspension.

Looks like it was in winter camo. Is this one the Finns captured?




PzB74 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 10:58:22 PM)

The KV is a mid 42 model, from the Bovington exhibition! Highly recommended.
It's painted in Leningrad paint scheme, but I don't think it was captured by the Finns.
Can't remember its history.



Przemcio231 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:11:50 PM)

Well the best heavy soviet Tank of the early stage of the war Was KV-2 with 152 mm Howitzer this monster was invunrable to any kind of AT fire[:D] and a hit from its main gun riped German Armor apart[:D][:D]



Honda -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:24:01 PM)

If KVII was the best the Soviets had then KT is the most maneuverable AFV around...



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:25:11 PM)

When it could hit one......and if the tank was lucky to be on an even slope. (any kind of hill and the massive turret could only be turned with extreme difficulty)

I'd rather have a conventional KV-1 than a 2.




Przemcio231 -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:30:01 PM)

I read that a single KV-2 Cut supply Lines for an Entire German Regiment and it took over 24 houers to Disable it ( crew ditched the Tank after it runned out of Ammo )



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:30:07 PM)

The KV-2 was a piece of crap. It was unreliable, slow, too-high profile, too heavy... It was basically not a tank, but a mobile artillery piece. The KV-1 was far more useful...



Nikademus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:31:16 PM)

That was a KV-1



Terminus -> RE: 1000 days of war...and a serious bug (9/14/2006 11:31:44 PM)

Eh?



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