RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (Full Version)

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mogami -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 10:35:50 PM)

quote:

And that is explained in the manual or in the promotional literature where again? See that's the point. Your and 2X3's INTENT, was never really communicated. There's nothing wrong with that intent. The game plays fine, for me, with it there. But it obviously does not for a number of folks. And that's fine, too. Thus the request for a toggle, if it is done at all.



Groan. I recall many discussions where the intent was covered. I'll para phrase
"A game designed by Grognards for Grognards. A game the designers have wanted to play"

This was also true of UV. UV went through many changes based on player feed back. (Adding features not just fixing bugs)
It was expected from the beginning WITP would go through the same process.

I understand we all have a voice here. I don't want to prevent anyone from voicing their opinions. But what just do you do with a person who arrives at the end of a project after is is finished and then begins a conversation that asks to redo the work to suit him?

Not only Matrix forum readers are buying the game. But I bet they are buying it because of GG. A person without internet access who had never heard of patches and matrixforums would play this game forever without realizing there were any bugs. (My copy runs without the patches and never crashes. )(Before I became a tester I thought most bugs were features and incorperated them into my planning. I was new to the internet, had never patched a program and played the GG games for years.)
I doubt they would ever think "Gee what a rip I don't have full control of my production. I can't build BAR copies for my infantry. I can't copy a captured B-17. I can't build the Bridge over the River Kwi"

Like a driver who has full control of his car. He can go where ever he wants but he has to face limits as well. Now we are debating what "full control" means.
The designer gave the game specific airgroups but we want generic airgroups or else we feel lied to? Really? [X(]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 10:37:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sultanofsham

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaypea

You misunderstood - "The Japanese should never be able to win the war " is my viewpoint also. I just clarified what I meant by win. You can lose the war but "win the game. I wanted to clarify that I was referring tot he fact that the japanese should never be able to win the war.


Why?


Because there was no way short of the US stepping on its sword that they could win. They had way too many things going against them and just being able to fine tune production and pick which aircraft a group uses isnt going to overcome all the rest of the problems they had. It might make them do better in the end but that end is still going to be the same.


I think I could actually win the war vs a dumb opponent.....like an AI... with fullly open deployment as well as research and production. I'd be willing to bet players as skilled as Mogami could probably come close with the production system as is, if he fully exploits it. And that does NOT mean the game would be broken. We've got some players coming close now to knocking China completely out of the game. There are some that think that means the game is broken, too. Why would they think that?

What we really have here is a design that attempts to come as close to an "historical simulation" as possible. As a result, to get the AI to play Japan in a fashion reasonably close to historically, they had to come up with the production system with preset research levels on turn 1 but with restricted upgrades. Problem is, turning that over to a human on the Japan side has no openned up this pandora's box. I guess I have to agree, given the "intent" of the design, players using that design in violation of the "intent" is really doing a very gamey exploit.

Lesson learned for future games is that it is awful hard to make a "game" an "historical simulation" that is still, for all practical purposes.... a game. Meaning the best you are ever going to really do is create a fantasy land set in an historical context.



mogami -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 10:44:35 PM)

Holy Cow you didn't already know that? I quit playing Civil War Gen II online because the players all thought using their HQ staff to cut off enemy retreats was skillfull play.

In RR Tycoon I bought the stockmarket and ruined every other RR while getting rich without ever building more then a few miles of track on my own RR.

I've yet to find a game in over 18 years (yike it's actually over 20 years now) of buying computer games where there were no "Tricks" And before that in minature play or board games there were always players who knew the loop holes or tricks. (My favorite remains the "Obvious Blunder redo rule)



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 10:48:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

quote:

And that is explained in the manual or in the promotional literature where again? See that's the point. Your and 2X3's INTENT, was never really communicated. There's nothing wrong with that intent. The game plays fine, for me, with it there. But it obviously does not for a number of folks. And that's fine, too. Thus the request for a toggle, if it is done at all.



Groan. I recall many discussions where the intent was covered. I'll para phrase
"A game designed by Grognards for Grognards. A game the designers have wanted to play"

This was also true of UV. UV went through many changes based on player feed back. (Adding features not just fixing bugs)
It was expected from the beginning WITP would go through the same process.

I understand we all have a voice here. I don't want to prevent anyone from voicing their opinions. But what just do you do with a person who arrives at the end of a project after is is finished and then begins a conversation that asks to redo the work to suit him?

Not only Matrix forum readers are buying the game. But I bet they are buying it because of GG. A person without internet access who had never heard of patches and matrixforums would play this game forever without realizing there were any bugs. (My copy runs without the patches and never crashes. )(Before I became a tester I thought most bugs were features and incorperated them into my planning. I was new to the internet, had never patched a program and played the GG games for years.)
I doubt they would ever think "Gee what a rip I don't have full control of my production. I can't build BAR copies for my infantry. I can't copy a captured B-17. I can't build the Bridge over the River Kwi"

Like a driver who has full control of his car. He can go where ever he wants but he has to face limits as well. Now we are debating what "full control" means.
The designer gave the game specific airgroups but we want generic airgroups or else we feel lied to? Really? [X(]


Yes, a lot of buyers probably bought it because GG is on the credits list. You and others may have stated this intent in the forums over and over again, but I don't ever remember seeing it. I only came back to the forum, however, about a month before release. All I saw was "full control". I, like others, have played a LOT of GG titles and all his games that have this research/production model in it all seem to work roughly the same. Many assumed this one would be no different. Fair assumption. So they get, not having really paid attention to the forum, expected that, and it didn't deliver that for them. Response is/was predictable.... a 23 page thread on the topic.... I'm sorry you are having a hard time grasping where these folks are coming from.

Bottom line, a lot of players really didn't want, nor believed, they were getting a hard core "historical simulation", but just another game, albeit a much BIGGER game, whose only real "history" is one of context..... Ooops!!



pompack -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 10:50:41 PM)

Much as I hate to muddy my boots by stepping into this mess, I feel an irresistable urge to bring up some of those nasty realities.

1. Engineering Foresight: A number of people have brought up in this thread and others that many of the historical upgrades actually replace a mediocre a/c with a bad a/c. I don't believe that the engineers sat down one day and said "let's see how bad a dog we can design and then dump on those worthless pilots." They set out to design the best a/c they could that met the requirements laid down by the doctrine folks and could still be produced in quantity within the limitations of Japanese industry. Some just didn't work out the way that they wanted and some did exactly what they were supposed to do but the doctrine was faulty.

What some of the posters seem to want to do is to look into the crystal ball in Dec 41 and see that some of those drawing board designs will work and some won't; I am sure that the engineers and High Command would have wanted to do that as well. If you allow the magic crystal ball, I want to use it to increase radar reasearch priorities to be able to retrofit radar across the Fleet by mid-42 (Shades of HOI[;)])

2. Political realities: The IJA and IJN didn't just feud, they actially shot at each other. And both (or at least the army) shot at the politicians who didn't follow the Army (or Navy) party line. I can only imagine what would have happened to some Bureaucrat who told the Army that they were going to have to use a NAVY fighter just because it was better. (Probably the same thing that would happen if the Bureaucrat told the Navy that Zero production had to be cut to provide more resources to build Oscars for the army[:)]).


If any thing, I think that the CURRENT system provides TOO MUCH flexibility. If you go much further down that path, you leave the realm of HISTORICAL simulation and enter the realms of the History Channel (if only they had just put a little more effort into research, I am sure that the Japanese could have nuked Los Angeles by 1943 at the latest using a modified Glen as the delivery vehicle- saw it last month[:D]).



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 10:58:13 PM)

quote:


If any thing, I think that the CURRENT system provides TOO MUCH flexibility. If you go much further down that path, you leave the realm of HISTORICAL simulation and enter the realms of the History Channel (if only they had just put a little more effort into research, I am sure that the Japanese could have nuked Los Angeles by 1943 at the latest using a modified Glen as the delivery vehicle- saw it last month[:D]).


There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input. The only simulation possible is a precisely hardcoded program that runs against itself and proudes historical results so we can then microanalyze and observe each turn from an academic perspective.

Once a human interfaces and inputs a single command that alters from history, it is no longer a "simulation" of any kind, it is a fantasy with an historic context and only the broadest sense of "history" can ever be made to apply. Simply that Japan is short of everything and the Allies are a bottomless pit. Beyond that, it's all fantasy anyway. Why so many get so hung up on such stuff in a GAME is beyond my understanding. It is a GAME! nothing more, nothing less.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Why don't you quit posting assumptions based on complete speculation and actually play the game instead. You might just find out to your surprise that funny enough, this *great* problem just doesn't exist. You want to complain about something, show me your mid '44-'45 save game that shows it.


Do you have a saved #15 that you got to mid '44-'45? Can we see it?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:03:36 PM)

quote:

There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input.


And you will not be content until we are playing "Doom" in the Pacific.

This is a military simulation of the units available during WW2 in the Pacific, not a first person shooter where you race to upgrade to the latest BFG.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:04:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

System works just fine ... you might not like it, but *that* is not a bug or flaw.


[8|]

Only for the US since they cannot control production and even they can run into the problem of having aircraft in the pool they cant use while groups are at half strength or worse.



mogami -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:04:24 PM)

Hi, I wish I had a save from 1944. My problem is the game keeps ending on 1 Jan 1943.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:05:48 PM)

quote:

Hi, I wish I had a save from 1944. My problem is the game keeps ending on 1 Jan 1943.


[:D]

Thats where this whole discussion becomes rather comical doesn't it. Tough to not win by then with an auto-victory.



freeboy -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:10:17 PM)

Frag,

ok, can I build tacticle nukes?
sorry couldn't help myself...
is it not a question of balance?



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:12:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.


Seems like the poll shows its more than 8 that want it and alot fewer than "Just as many"
think its just fine [;)]



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:18:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
I think I could actually win the war vs a dumb opponent.....like an AI... with fullly open deployment as well as research and production. I'd be willing to bet players as skilled as Mogami could probably come close with the production system as is, if he fully exploits it. And that does NOT mean the game would be broken.



That would just mean the the AI as all AI's sucks. Given 2 players of equal skill there is no way it should be close even with whats being asked for. Japan should get crushed, barring real bad luck.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:22:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input.


And you will not be content until we are playing "Doom" in the Pacific.

This is a military simulation of the units available during WW2 in the Pacific, not a first person shooter where you race to upgrade to the latest BFG.


Thats not what he said but nice way to miss the point and demogog it at the same time.



Damien Thorn -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:24:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaypea

You can lose the war but "win the game.


I've never understood this kind of thinking. Winning the war is winning the game and winning the game is winning the war. This is because the war does not exist outside of the game (except in history books). If you force the US to throw in the towel on Jan 1st 1943 by auto-victory then you win the game and the war.



Brausepaul -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:27:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaypea

You can lose the war but "win the game.


I've never understood this kind of thinking. Winning the war is winning the game and winning the game is winning the war. This is because the war does not exist outside of the game (except in history books). If you force the US to throw in the towel on Jan 1st 1943 by auto-victory then you win the game and the war.


I fully agree with this.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:28:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input.


And you will not be content until we are playing "Doom" in the Pacific.

This is a military simulation of the units available during WW2 in the Pacific, not a first person shooter where you race to upgrade to the latest BFG.


Sure, you START with units, bases, ships, commanders, supplies, resources, industry that both sides had on Dec 7, 1941. After that, it's all FANTASY! If you can't grasp that, then you just don't get it. You still have a turn based wargame set in an historical context with all the production and logistical constraints that existed at that time. But becasue I may not want to form the 2nd Marines in June of 1942 and inleui of something else, or I want to outfit the 44th Fighter squadron with P-38J's vs P47D's, so what? Why do YOU care? If I want to create a "Warcfraft" game out of it why do YOU care so long as you can have whatever kind of game YOU want as well?

Some of us simply REFUSE to allow you to impose YOUR vision of a GAME on us, if they so choose to allow us to play it under a completely different vision. Which they already have, as Mogami has already stated. I can already exploit the HELL out of production, and send the AI into death spirals and confuse the hell out of it at will. So what? I wouldn't do that to my game, but if Joe User in North Dakota wants to, so what? What should I care?

It's this notion of wanting to IMPOSE your narrow focused views on everyone else we take exceptions to. I will be content no matter what Matrix decides to do on this. You, obviously go into another rage if they open up the upgrade system the way a lot of folks want them to. Get a look at that poll again? 80% want this design changed! I already knew that would be the case before the poll ever went up! Kind of busted your notions all to hell didn't it? LOL!



pompack -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:30:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sultanofsham

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input.


And you will not be content until we are playing "Doom" in the Pacific.

This is a military simulation of the units available during WW2 in the Pacific, not a first person shooter where you race to upgrade to the latest BFG.


Thats not what he said but nice way to miss the point and demogog it at the same time.


Actually, I thought that WAS what he said[:)]

Back to the point, WitP is a fantastic game that allows me to play as an operational/strategic commander and see if I can do as well or better than my historical counterparts AND it forces me to live within the same constraints inflicted on those historical commanders.

Now if you can convince the devs to modify WitP to become what MOO3 should have been, I'll play that too.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:31:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Hi, I wish I had a save from 1944. My problem is the game keeps ending on 1 Jan 1943.


[:D]

Thats where this whole discussion becomes rather comical doesn't it. Tough to not win by then with an auto-victory.


Come on Frag. Quit avoiding the qestion put to you. Do you have a saved #15 that you got to mid '44-'45? Lets see if it backs up your claim that this is pointless.



freeboy -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:32:21 PM)

One can play with the points to artificially play "who wins" after all it all is "artificail"
What is the goal.????????
FUN
And what equals fun for me does not neccessarily equal fun for Frag, and Zoomie just too busy for pbem, or Chicken lol, joking of course.
I see that we need to have some playtime and forget these difficult disagreements...
Wish my pbem friend was back yesterday from vacation...



Sultanofsham -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:42:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompacl

Actually, I thought that WAS what he said[:)]

Back to the point, WitP is a fantastic game that allows me to play as an operational/strategic commander and see if I can do as well or better than my historical counterparts AND it forces me to live within the same constraints inflicted on those historical commanders.


No thats not what he said and no the game doesnt force you to live within the same constraints as historical commanders. Not even close. Wargames are more "what if" generators in a historical context. More so where humans can have input.



pompack -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:46:25 PM)

quote:



Much as I hate to muddy my boots by stepping into this mess, ...



That ain't mud old son. There's too many of them bulls a'snortin around this here thread [:)]



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:52:30 PM)

MY last vote![:D] I agree with Mr. Frag completely. Could not have said it better![:'(]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input.


And you will not be content until we are playing "Doom" in the Pacific.

This is a military simulation of the units available during WW2 in the Pacific, not a first person shooter where you race to upgrade to the latest BFG.



mogami -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/16/2004 11:54:16 PM)

Hi, I only want to make sure we all understand what messing with production and upgrades really means. It means we are willing and agree to suspend adherance to contraints the designer abstracted into the game.

Suppose there was a vital war material. Suppose Japan prewar had been buying it but in Sept 1941 had that source cut off for occupying Indo China. Now suppose Japan decides to go to war in part to secure the supply again.

After Japan captures this resource it sends 100 percent of the out put back to Japan. Suppose it is required for almost all production. Suppose Japan built aircraft in numbers that it could only because of this limit. There is no more source for Japan no matter how much she expands facilities production will be limited by this material.

Now the designer to abstract this in a simple manner limits the size of the factories or number of groups that will fly this aircraft.

Now we change the system. We have turned the production of that aircraft into fantasy.

In order to restore the designers intent. (It's his game it should reflect his notions)
We need to define exactly what raw materials are used to produce any given item.
We need to define exactly where these raw materials are produced.
We need to define exactly where the material stocks are at any moment
We need to allow for enemy action to target specfic material stockpiles at land targets.


Now the game would be super realistic and players would have absolute freedom (except they still could not produce items that required the "bottleneck" resource beyond what they could harvest and transport. But the designers should spend the first few years of working on a game putting their intent down where it can be accessed and only then following apporval by all prospective buyers should they begin actual coding.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:02:33 AM)

quote:


Actually, I thought that WAS what he said[:)]

No it wasn't what I said.

quote:


Back to the point, WitP is a fantastic game that allows me to play as an operational/strategic commander and see if I can do as well or better than my historical counterparts AND it forces me to live within the same constraints inflicted on those historical commanders.

What constraints might those be, again? Viable "historic" constraints are, Japan's industrial capacity was neutered from the get-go. Japan had to capture natural resources to feed it, and even then was going to be short of everything. That's about it. So long as the production system requires sane feeding (oil and resource) everything else should be fair game, as it was then. Japan was "historically constrained" to keep that Chinese Ki-43 Oscar IIa an Oscar IIa forever. That is a CHOICE they made, driven to by a particular chain of events that just happenned to happen in their run through the war. It has NO RELEVANCE to my run!

It simply does not make sense to allow a player to fiddle with some things in an a-historical fashion and not other things. Allow one player to do ANYTHING non-historical and you are done with any notion of an "historical simulation" in the way some are portraying that concept here.

The game is as the game is, and we are probably NOT going to get much in the way of significant design changes in this area. If so, in this area, it will GREATLY IMPROVE the enjoyment of a lot of players, even ones who are already satisfied, especially the "historical simulators" or still allowed to simulate their vision. In such a case the only people that would be ticked off are the Frag's who seem to only be happy when IMPOSING their ideals on others.

BTW, In my Japan IJA and IJN take warm showers in the morning together, so what?



Oznoyng -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:03:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Suppose there was a vital war material. Suppose Japan prewar had been buying it but in Sept 1941 had that source cut off for occupying Indo China. Now suppose Japan decides to go to war in part to secure the supply again.

After Japan captures this resource it sends 100 percent of the out put back to Japan. Suppose it is required for almost all production. Suppose Japan built aircraft in numbers that it could only because of this limit. There is no more source for Japan no matter how much she expands facilities production will be limited by this material.


- Did the SRA provide sources of the materials needed for Japan to produce advanced aircraft (like the Frank)?
- If I keep the shipments to Japan flowing longer, is it reasonable to assume that more advanced aircraft would be available to equip more squadrons?

edit:

Put another way, the limit on production is the resource. What happens to the model if I manage to send more of that resource to Japan before the Allies cut the pipeline? Logically, I should get more of whatever I am trying to produce. If the item in question is Franks, I should see that improvement in the form of more airgroups being equipped with the Frank.



Damien Thorn -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:07:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
BTW, In my Japan IJA and IJN take warm showers in the morning together, so what?


So you have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? [;)]



TheHellPatrol -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:13:50 AM)

May i just remind you guys that if there was no Witp what would you be playing/doing with your free time that's more engaging and compelling than Witp? In my 42 years, i have played every board/pc wargame out there and there is nothing...NOTHING...like Witp except the lite versions (UV/Pacwar). Matrix will keep improving Witp, but for now enjoy it for what it's worth. When it comes to what is a bug or what is a design decision and all the related arguments, which i agree with SunDevil as to it being a good thing, i can't help but remember what Donald Rumsfeld said Feb, 12th 2002 at a Department of Defense news briefing......
"As we know,
There are known knowns.
These are the things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns
The ones we don't know
We don't know."



Williamb -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:16:00 AM)

I wonder can you RESET japanese factories in the editor ?


If they creat a scenario where they factories are already producing what they want will eliminate the need for whole issue of upgrades.

however will need something else for grand campaign.



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