RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying -

RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945

Message

Herrbear -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 7:28:03 AM)
I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history.

Culiacan Mexico -> Comment (8/17/2004 7:32:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag …Show me the flaw… System works just fine ... Just because a system is working as designed doesn’t mean it isn’t flawed. Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool. Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them. Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game. If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it. If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it. But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

BoerWar -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 7:35:00 AM)
One question I do have about production is why are the Toyoda, Kokusai, Isshikawajima, Mansyu aircraft engine types in the game? As far as I can tell there aren't any aircraft in the upgrade path that use them. Are they just a waste production effort for the non-observant Japanese industrialist or are they something I'll need eventually?[:(]

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 7:38:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mogami Hi, If you have 500 Franks in Pool and 15 depleted Oscar groups you screwed the pooch production wise. You knew the Oscar groups needed Oscars but produced Franks instead. And your saying that is the games fault? Absolutely! There should be absolutely no question on this point. If the Japanese could have historically produced more Franks and less Oscars they would have used them. A game not letting the player do that is flawed. If the Japanese couldn’t have historically produced more Franks and less Oscars, then a game allowing the player to do this is flawed.

BoerWar -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 7:46:02 AM)
quote: Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool. Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them. Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game. If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it. If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it. But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft. Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.[;)]

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 8:05:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mogami Very few seem able to just install the game and play it as designed and intended. The designers actually intended for the player to document not only how many groups would use each type of aircraft, but exactly which group would be allowed; and then and only then the player can modify his production? God, I hope that wasn’t their intent.

BoerWar -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 8:07:08 AM)
quote: I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history. Is there some basis for your analysis? Vast amounts of Production in 1944 and 45 would have been useless if a few battles in 1942 had gone the other way. If Stalingrad, Midway and/or El Alamien go the other way, perhaps Casablanca/Yalta don't produce a demand for non-conditional surrender. Maybe USSR doesn't even show. In war the most important thing to defeat is the enemy's will to go on. Mid-1942 is known as a turning-point for a reason. For a short period the war was very "winnable" for the Axis powers. If they had stayed on a roll they could have won a negotiated peace. Production didn't win the war for the Allies it just brought the war to a swifter conclusion once the outcome was decided by luck and courage in the Summer of 1942.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 8:10:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Black Cat ...These guys don`t want to hear facts or gameplay reality, or actual historical limitations, or GG`s view of what the WITP was, they want GG-Wood to enable them do what they want to do when they want to do it...period. Ok, since I don’t understand… please explain the historical realities that stopped the Japanese from operating the 1st Sentai with Tojo aircraft?

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 8:16:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoerWar quote: Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool. Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them. Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game. If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it. If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it. But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft. Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.[;)] First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo. Second, we are taking about historical production rates. Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft. Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement. Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft. So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th? [:)]

sacorsair -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 8:18:34 AM)
Ok now I have waited 2 years for this game to come out !!! I am tired of hearing how flawed it is! I didnt see anyone else even trying to produce this !! It is not as if they will seel a million copies of this game maybe not even ten thousand so stop and think about that!! Here is how simple it is. If you dont like the Japanese position in the war and dont like what you can and cant do DONT PLAY AS THE JAPS !!!!!!!! Or go tot the editor and spend all your time trying to fix every fix know to man instead of playing !!!!! I am sure thier leaders on Japanese airfields wanted Tojos and Franks and the rest too but they didnt get them either. Hindsight is 20/20 .

BoerWar -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 8:36:51 AM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: BoerWar quote: Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool. Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them. Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game. If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it. If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it. But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft. Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all. First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo. Second, we are taking about historical production rates. Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft. Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement. Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft. So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th? First, let me say again I'm not opposed to such changes, but they should be limited and such changes should take time to implement. Once a new aircraft is available it takes time to "sell" the military at large that it is truly a better product. It typically takes some sort of "disaster" to convince people that it is time to move on. Maybe they could build something into the game that would allow a unit to decide to upgrade after a period of time has passed since development of a new aircraft. If units begin to experience serious losses in the old aircraft perhaps the timetable could be shortened. That said I love the game the way it is and don't need these changes to make me happy.

Culiacan Mexico -> "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 8:44:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings Upgrades and production were design choices… Difficult choices I would bet. I was told that if I had any issues, regardless of how minor I should voice then hear or they would never have the possibility of being addressed. I will continue to do just that, until a definitive “yes we will address it” or “no we won’t address it”. Thank you for your patience and for a great game. [:)] A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"(JAUG). [;)]

Herrbear -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 9:04:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoerWar quote: I disagree. Japan should not ever be able to win the war. The allies can out produce in every respect. What Japan can do is win the game by making the allies take longer than history. Is there some basis for your analysis? Vast amounts of Production in 1944 and 45 would have been useless if a few battles in 1942 had gone the other way. If Stalingrad, Midway and/or El Alamien go the other way, perhaps Casablanca/Yalta don't produce a demand for non-conditional surrender. Maybe USSR doesn't even show. In war the most important thing to defeat is the enemy's will to go on. Mid-1942 is known as a turning-point for a reason. For a short period the war was very "winnable" for the Axis powers. If they had stayed on a roll they could have won a negotiated peace. Production didn't win the war for the Allies it just brought the war to a swifter conclusion once the outcome was decided by luck and courage in the Summer of 1942. The context was meant only concerning WITP. I agree with you that if certain things happened in the course of WWII then any outcome may be different. WITP lives in a vacumn. There is no interaction with the rest of WWII except for the withdrawl of certain British units and even then it is not based on how things might have gone but is base on what happened is what will happen.

Culiacan Mexico -> "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 9:06:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Black Cat Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time. [:D] since we are resorting to four letter words... Nonsense. If they decide to change it, which I doubt, it depends on how they changed it. For example, a toggle switch in options that allows ‘free upgrades’ or keeps the ‘present system’. You can choose ‘present system’ and have the same game you got now… what is the problem? You get the game you want and the ‘free upgrade’ group gets what they want.

Culiacan Mexico -> "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 9:17:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins Guys, Is there really a point to continuing this? Consider this, both sides... you've been heard, we understand and we've replied... quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Wood Hello... I am saddened if any feel annoyed by the silence of Matrix on this issue. I am the one who decide what, if anything we do about it. I haven't made up my mind, yet. I have been reading the various arguments and have talked with Joel Billings about it. I have had my head buried in code, hunting bugs and generally making adjustments. After we get most of the bugs fixed, Joel and I will take a close look at it. It does not have priority right now, because it works as designed and we would rather fix the things that do not, first. Patience Folk... Michael Wood I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me I wasn’t annoyed… just wondering what was 2by3/Matrix view on this issue. Now I know. Either way you decide to go… great game! A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 9:30:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag ...I do not sit here and insult the game system, matter of fact, I've been sitting here taking abuse non stop because I support the system as it sits without a handful of folks screwing it up who don't even invest the time to actually test what they preach because they are too busy preaching... The game system is great, but with all systems improvement is possible. Pointing that out shouldn’t be taken an insult. Can I program, design, or develop a game of this caliber… not in a thousand years. I lack that talent, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have opinions about certain aspects of the game. Now it is very possible that what I believe is wrong, but shouldn’t I be allowed to voice those concerns/beliefs; and isn’t it in the best interest of 2by3/Matrix that I do? They can look at all the different opinions and options, and weigh it against numerous other factors that most of us will never know… and decide. Customer feedback is an interesting resource: it comes in all colors from helpful to annoying. The only thing worse than customer feedback… is no feedback at all. A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

Drongo -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 10:01:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84.

2ndACR -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 10:04:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Drongo quote: ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84. Good idea, where is Subchaser when you need him.

Culiacan Mexico -> "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 10:58:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pompacl 2. Political realities: The IJA and IJN didn't just feud, they actially shot at each other. And both (or at least the army) shot at the politicians who didn't follow the Army (or Navy) party line. I can only imagine what would have happened to some Bureaucrat who told the Army that they were going to have to use a NAVY fighter just because it was better. (Probably the same thing that would happen if the Bureaucrat told the Navy that Zero production had to be cut to provide more resources to build Oscars for the army[:)]). Isn’t this a Strawman? Virtually every proposal made has been restrictive, especially regarding Navy/Army aircraft. One of the early complaints was that pilots flying Oscar IIs can use Franks if available. Both are Army fighters. Historically, if the Japanese had 10,000 extra Franks and no Oscar II available they would have switched the pilots over to Franks. Of course historically, the Japanese were unable to either build or retain enough aircraft to convert every group to Franks even if they wanted to. In the game, the Japanese player is allowed to modify production levels if he has and is willing to spend the resources, plus a skillful player might experience fewer losses that were experience historically. The Japanese player should be restricted from using these aircraft? It seems to me the entire purpose to having limited upgrade paths is to try and keep a historical flavor to the game. In Pac War it was necessary for ‘House Rules’ to stop every Allied unit from using P-40s, so while I applaud the intent of ‘fixed upgrade paths’ I wish for a more flexible system. Historically, the upgrade paths of each groups was determined by a multitude of factors, include the combat situation. Since it is unlikely that games will match the historical situation that factored into which Nate group upgrade along which path, shouldn’t the player be allowed choose which path to take?

Culiacan Mexico -> A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 11:05:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hithere … The game is out. I can not see any company basically re-creating any game. it took them 3 years to get this game out. there is no game company that will do something like that...but this company does listen to suggestions.....it is one of the reasons i like 2by3/Matrix so much....you can acually "talk" to the developers. Agreed. I keep waiting for them to say, “No we are going to recode for this”. Mind you, this isn’t what I want to hear, but realistically the fact the haven’t dismissed it out of hand is very impressive.

Culiacan Mexico -> A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 11:10:14 AM)
I voted: "I prefer upgradable aircraft with the limitations in the first post", but I am open to other possibilities. [:)]

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 11:10:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico quote: ORIGINAL: BoerWar quote: Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool. Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them. Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game. If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it. If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it. But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft. Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.[;)] First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo. Second, we are taking about historical production rates. Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft. Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement. Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft. So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th? [:)] I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality. While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to. Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(]

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 11:16:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag Taking developer time away from global improvements when it could be spent improving the game for everyone needs to be thought about carefully ... looks like about 44% of the folks either don't want it or want to have it where it doesn't mess with their games. Actually, this is a fair argument if the developers wish to make it… and I would accept this without complaint. They haven’t stated this yet. quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag What makes YOU any better then THEM? They paid the same money you did. Everyone has the right to suggest/hope for an improvement they would like to see… this is after all just a forum.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 11:30:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoerWar First, let me say again I'm not opposed to such changes, but they should be limited and such changes should take time to implement. Once a new aircraft is available it takes time to "sell" the military at large that it is truly a better product. It typically takes some sort of "disaster" to convince people that it is time to move on. Maybe they could build something into the game that would allow a unit to decide to upgrade after a period of time has passed since development of a new aircraft. If units begin to experience serious losses in the old aircraft perhaps the timetable could be shortened. That said I love the game the way it is and don't need these changes to make me happy. I have no problem with limitations, but do feel that the current situation is a bit to restrictive.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 11:32:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Drongo quote: ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84. [:D]

Culiacan Mexico -> A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 11:47:47 AM)
CM - So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th? quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality. While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to. Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(] First, comparing WitP that has more flexibility in upgrade paths with RTS is hardly in the spirit of honest discussion. Nakajima was building these aircraft for the Army: Ki-27, Ki-43, and Ki-44. You stated “production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship”. Could you expand on how this relates to these aircraft? What physical limitations was there that limited the tooling up of different factories? Were the major reasons for delay in fielding the Ki-43 and Ki-44 technical development and not manufacturing/materials? My understanding is the Ki-43 and Ki-44 was in development at roughly the same time and production levels had more to do with policy than anything else: there were no physical reasons that the Ki-44 couldn’t have been produced in a moderately larger quantity.

WhoCares -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:39:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Black Cat Joel Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it. That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming. Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time. For one, the historical reality ends as soon as the player and even the AI starts to make decisions in the game. Players can stop the Shinano, Musashi and Yamato and accellerate the other CVs, thus getting completely different navys than historically. For two, it doesn't matter whether it is a request by one, eight or thousand players. Just as you say it is eight players lobbying their demand again and again, it is just the same with those that speak against their request again and again. Denying a request shouldn't be based on eight players/Betas/Fanboys/whatever just because they repeat their mantras like 'historical reality' either. And I would ask both sides to avoid and imply that they speak for the big silent crowd out there - let's just assume they don't know about this discussion and split them 50/50 until somebody makes a valid survey... Instead the decision shall be based on the actual content of the request and it will be up to Matrix/2by3 to validate the request. It is up to us to provide pros and cons to the discussion and for those supporting the cause, probably make some suggestions how they would like it to be (and there are a lot of such suggestions burried in the other thread). In the end, we all have to put our faith into Matrix/2By3 to come up with an answer, one way or the other, for whatever reason (feasability, risk)... And for three, you should be more confident that the developers could come up with a solution that does not break the game but probably even bring it to a new level of excitment for you, that you just can't imagine by now... Edit: Now this is what you get when you post about something a while back and not reading everything until the end... So, there is a poll now to get a better idea of what is asked for...

Ron Saueracker -> RE: A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 12:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico CM - So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th? quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality. While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to. Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(] First, comparing WitP that has more flexibility in upgrade paths with RTS is hardly in the spirit of honest discussion. Nakajima was building these aircraft for the Army: Ki-27, Ki-43, and Ki-44. You stated “production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship”. Could you expand on how this relates to these aircraft? What physical limitations was there that limited the tooling up of different factories? Were the major reasons for delay in fielding the Ki-43 and Ki-44 technical development and not manufacturing/materials? My understanding is the Ki-43 and Ki-44 was in development at roughly the same time and production levels had more to do with policy than anything else: there were no physical reasons that the Ki-44 couldn’t have been produced in a moderately larger quantity. In WITP, there is no way to model low grade steel and other material used for Japanese a/c airframes and power plants later in the war...you simply get the plane according to the specs in the database. I'm no expert on Japanese aircraft, or aircraft in general, but there has been much written regarding these production difficulties and failings. To simply ignore them by not having some form of deployment restriction would not do the historical aspect of the sim much justice.

steveh11Matrix -> RE: Matrix - Silence - Annoying - (8/17/2004 12:56:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality. While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to. Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(] Ron: Good answer, but you don't get my vote. You might as well take production right out of the game, if the player can't deploy what he has - the system as it stands doesn't reward a good player at all, it simply hinders him. If you can't actually model the problems that the Japanese had with increasing/changing the fighter production they had, you'd simply be better off with reinforcement tables. Sadly, this would remove much of the interest, and would require changes in other areas to make the SRA the strategic necessity that it was. I therefore submit that the best improvement would be to improve the production model as well as allowing freer upgrades, but that the simplest would be to allow up/downgrades, within service and roles, as the command (player) sees fit under the circumstances that then prevail, as a toggle-able option at the start of the game. This would preserve the game in it's current form for those who like it that way, while satisfying the others who are requesting change. Steve.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group" (8/17/2004 1:11:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker In WITP, there is no way to model low grade steel and other material used for Japanese a/c airframes and power plants later in the war...you simply get the plane according to the specs in the database. I'm no expert on Japanese aircraft, or aircraft in general, but there has been much written regarding these production difficulties and failings. To simply ignore them by not having some form of deployment restriction would not do the historical aspect of the sim much justice. Ignore? Haven’t I stated eliminate research and give historical production levels… just allow me to choose which group gets the aircraft? With regards to ‘historical sim’: if you play as the Allied player do you follow the same strategy as they did historically? Most don’t. In fact the average player’s actions in the game are so non-historical in nature as to eliminate any ‘historic sim’ argument. As someone said,’ This is a Pacific War sand box’. If the reason upgrade paths were fixed is to eliminate the entire Japanese Army Air Force from flying Ki-44 by October of 1942… ok. I understand why it was done and agree with the intent… just not with how it was done and the consequences. If the Developers feel that the Japanese only had seven Tojo groups historically and want to limit them to no more, then allow me to pick which Nate groups that upgrade to this type of aircraft. Limit it to the number of groups that upgraded historically, but allow me to select which groups upgrade based on pilot quality, and both the tactical and strategic situation. If some people see this as RTS or wanting F-18s… then I have to question there true intent in posting.

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.625