Against the unfair limitations of US production! (Full Version)

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fbastos -> Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:18:46 AM)

The other side of unfairness:

If the Japanese can control their production, the US should too! If the Japanese player can choose unhistorical options, the US player should too (as long as unhistorical options would produce handicaps that the player would have to live with).

I know, I know, the Allied player has some limited control. My point is that he should have similar control as the Japanese.

Rants, bashing, flames, all welcome.[8D]

Regards,
F.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:26:44 AM)

Oooh.............no.[;)]

What control does the Allied player have? Zip-zingo that I know of.



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:38:29 AM)

I'm learning from the other threads... I was going to write that the US has no control, but then someone would point out that "oh, but you can choose repair on/off".

So to avoid arguing about that rather than my initial point, I corrected it to "partial control"... :)



BossGnome -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 7:27:45 AM)

ok put it this way: the US produces INSANELY more than the japanese. Until the Japs take the "economic sphere" the production is like 7-1, and once they take it, it drops to about 2-1. So at least give the poor bastards some control bfore you smash em!

also, have you noticed that a lot of US stuff comes not from factories, but from Europe? So you'd expect to go to your general "Oi mate! Gimme that grand ol' battleship 'ere for me war"

"Trooper I have told you we need it for operation torch!"

"Operation torch my ass! I need to take back Guam!"

umm...no.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 7:39:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
The other side of unfairness:

If the Japanese can control their production, the US should too!
I started learning this game from the Japanese side and haven’t gotten to the Allied side yet so...

Question: is there any point in the player controlling US production? Is there a shortage of P-38s, P-47s and P-51s in 1944/45?



2ndACR -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 7:40:35 AM)

Not likely.



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 7:52:18 AM)

Wouldn't you be able to advance research and make a P-51 available earlier on?



2ndACR -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 7:56:26 AM)

The P51 was in use by the Brits very early on. I think 1942 or so. They called it something else though.

If you look at the A36 Apache, I believe it is a P51B.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:01:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Not likely.

[;)]

I would have thought that when exploring historical ‘what ifs’ operational usage would be of more interest to the US player than producing more P-47s. Historical production ‘what ifs’ are more of a Japanese issue, at least late war.



2ndACR -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:04:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Not likely.

[;)]

I would have thought that when exploring historical ‘what ifs’ operational usage would be of more interest to the US player than producing more P-47s. Historical production ‘what ifs’ are more of a Japanese issue, at least late war.


You would think.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:06:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
Wouldn't you be able to advance research and make a P-51 available earlier on?
First let me say, I never have agreed with how research is modeled in the game.

There is only so much development that can be done on any one aircraft and in the case of the P-51… wasn’t there already considerable ‘need’ in Europe for such an aircraft? I am not sure the War in the Pacific was the driving force behind this aircrafts development. IMO



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:17:21 AM)

quote:

There is only so much development that can be done on any one aircraft and in the case of the P-51… wasn’t there already considerable ‘need’ in Europe for such an aircraft? I am not sure the War in the Pacific was the driving force behind this aircrafts development. IMO


That's a good point. I also think it was due to the "Germany first" approach.

F



Sultanofsham -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:20:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

The other side of unfairness:

If the Japanese can control their production, the US should too! If the Japanese player can choose unhistorical options, the US player should too (as long as unhistorical options would produce handicaps that the player would have to live with).



Not going to happen. About the only thing that can be done Is with the editor at this point.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:20:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

quote:

There is only so much development that can be done on any one aircraft and in the case of the P-51… wasn’t there already considerable ‘need’ in Europe for such an aircraft? I am not sure the War in the Pacific was the driving force behind this aircrafts development. IMO


That's a good point. I also think it was due to the "Germany first" approach.

F
No disagreement from me. [:)]



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:22:10 AM)

So there is no fun whatsoever to be gained in letting the Allied player control production?

I take my question back if not.

As for myself, I do like the freedom of going for alternative approaches - like giving up on all of my F4F and live with the Buffalos for a year in order to have the F6F earlier on. Take on the risks to have a shorter war - good fun! :)

F.



Sultanofsham -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:22:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

First let me say, I never have agreed with how research is modeled in the game.



Yeah, if they'd rip it out I wouldnt miss the thing at all.



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:26:38 AM)

quote:

Not going to happen. About the only thing that can be done Is with the editor at this point.


Yeah, I know... [:(]

Perhaps when Gary Grisby goes for "War in The Atlantic"!

F.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:40:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
So there is no fun whatsoever to be gained in letting the Allied player control production?

I take my question back if not.

As for myself, I do like the freedom of going for alternative approaches - like giving up on all of my F4F and live with the Buffalos for a year in order to have the F6F earlier on. Take on the risks to have a shorter war - good fun! :)

F.
I think ‘research’ would be interesting if modeled well, but ‘as is’ the player knows too much. You know the P-51D will perform as ‘XXX’, which the historical designers didn’t… so the smart player will pour research into this aircraft.

I also like alternate approach, but very much understand the feelings of those who don’t want these historical ‘what ifs’ imposed on them. It would have been interesting if there were a wider variety of options available… like Allied research to let players adjust the game to their interest/enjoyment.

PS. ‘As is’ WitP is a great game.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:43:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sultanofsham
quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
First let me say, I never have agreed with how research is modeled in the game.

Yeah, if they'd rip it out I wouldnt miss the thing at all.
Agreed.

I don’t use it… well the game starts of with a number of aircraft being ‘researched’, but I don’t increase them or add any new factories to research.



Maliki -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 8:56:48 AM)

Well unlike Japan the US did not have the luxury of only fighting a "one" front war.Okay say production is included for the US player,not even taking into account the other allied nations represented.Now you would have to decide which assests,and how much,went to the PTO and to the ETO.You just can't represent American production and manpower at 100% of capacity because Japan would simply be overwhelmed by it in a short time.You would have to figure out a system where the player would commit so many resources to the latter and to the former.There would have to be consequences for doing too much of one or another.They would have to model out of theater results,or arbitrially decide how much of such and such went here or there during the war.I'm sure it could be done either way,but at a huge cost of time and headaches to the proggramers and developers..and even then you would have complaints like i wanted to send 500 LSTs to the PTO but the game said i could only send 200,or why did it say D-day failed and germany conquered England just because i sent everything i had to the other theater.Not just that but as i said earlier that you are dealing with many different nations(and not just one) would make this a nightmare.How do you model Dutch,British,Austrailian,Chinese..etc manpower and resources all within the limitations of the game system?You can't unless you want to make it ten times more complicated then it is already.

Just my two cents and some hot air.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 9:33:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

The other side of unfairness:

If the Japanese can control their production, the US should too! If the Japanese player can choose unhistorical options, the US player should too (as long as unhistorical options would produce handicaps that the player would have to live with).

I know, I know, the Allied player has some limited control. My point is that he should have similar control as the Japanese.




Obviously you have never tried to fight with the convoluted hoop-jumping involved
in trying to use Japanese Production or you wouldn't suggest trying to deal with the
huge US economy in this system. It would be a massive task..., not to mention
requiring the entire US to be on the map so you can junt through every hex looking
for factories.



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 9:44:57 AM)

quote:

Obviously you have never tried to fight with the convoluted hoop-jumping involved
in trying to use Japanese Production or you wouldn't suggest trying to deal with the
huge US economy in this system. It would be a massive task..., not to mention
requiring the entire US to be on the map so you can junt through every hex looking
for factories.


Uh? I didn't mean to replicate the US economy. Just put some factories in United States and that's it. Initially set the factories to produce what they are already programmed to build, so if one doesn't want to mess with production, just leave them alone and you play the game as it is now. Otherwise go and try to get them early F6F! :)



fbastos -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 9:51:27 AM)

quote:

Now you would have to decide which assests,and how much,went to the PTO and to the ETO.


Yeah, nobody would like that. I would be happy just in tweaking the production around a bit, specially on taking some (possibly heavy) penalty in order to get some aircrafts earlier on.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 10:28:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
Yeah, nobody would like that. I would be happy just in tweaking the production around a bit, specially on taking some (possibly heavy) penalty in order to get some aircrafts earlier on.
Be careful, it might work like the Japanese system… you can get them early, but you can’t use them. [;)]



Buck Beach -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 4:20:15 PM)

Hmmm! This thread seems to me to be a back door attack to the fanatics on the other upgrade aircraft threads. I think it is funnier than hell[:D][:D].



strawbuk -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:27:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Hmmm! This thread seems to me to be a back door attack to the fanatics on the other upgrade aircraft threads. I think it is funnier than hell[:D][:D].


Just what I was thinking - though I don't see tham as fanatics. Much. As I half agree with them. Sometimes.

Let's get back to bulldozers. I really understood the bulldozer argument.



vonmoltke -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:33:18 PM)

I don't think either side should have control over their production, but I seem to be in a smaller minority than those who want both sides to control it. [:D]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:36:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
The other side of unfairness:

If the Japanese can control their production, the US should too!
I started learning this game from the Japanese side and haven’t gotten to the Allied side yet so...

Question: is there any point in the player controlling US production? Is there a shortage of P-38s, P-47s and P-51s in 1944/45?


The issue, by mid/late 1944 with the Allied player is "where am I going to put all this stuff"! there are only so many bases.....



strawbuk -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:41:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

[
The issue, by mid/late 1944 with the Allied player is "where am I going to put all this stuff"! there are only so many bases.....


Yeah espeically with all those bulldozers - they take up lot of room.



vonmoltke -> RE: Against the unfair limitations of US production! (8/19/2004 6:43:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strawbuk

Yeah espeically with all those bulldozers - they take up lot of room.

You could have'em build practice targets for the Navy and Marines to blow up. That oughta keep'em busy. [:)]



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