RE: The price (Full Version)

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Adam Parker -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 11:28:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

In Australia, the price of a first release good quality computer game, is AUD$89.00

It has been that price for 10 years.

BIN at USD$59.99 – comes out at about AUD$85.00 – a bargain!


Joe, that includes the costs of shipment and storage in store, merchandising, producing the physical medium and don't forget the Liberal's extra. There's also a myriad of currency conversions between place of shipment and place of retail.

Wouldn't you kind of expect some flow-back of these to the consumer by Digital Download?

Btw - what's the dollar today [;)]



JSS -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 12:48:00 PM)

Adam,

BiN's price is an incredible value for what you're getting. I really think it's worth more than US$100.

I'm REALLY glad companies like SSG, 2by3, and Matrix still make/sell wargames worth buying. [&o]

JSS



Kung Karl -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 1:50:43 PM)

The use of digital download is great even if I would like to have the box with my other games instead of burnt cd without cover.



2gaulle -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 1:52:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarkus

I'm glad to see my post generated a discussion.

While there is no doubt that many hard-core wargamers are willing to pay $59.99 for BiN, my fear is that it's too high a price for more casual wargamers and too high for those thinking about getting into the hobby. I've been watching this hobby get less and less mainstream with each passing year so Matrix's apparent strategy to just go after the existing market bothers me as short-sighted.

In addition, two other issues come to mind in response to some of the comments above. First, I don't buy the "gamers demand better graphics" argument. While it's true that BiN is more graphically advanced than many past wargames, I really doubt that it required the level of graphics modeling skill of something like Combat Mission, let alone a mainstream title. Wargames are still produced with relatively tiny development teams, so it's not like the cost has risen like it has with other types of games. Too argue that the price must go up to compensate strikes me as flawed.

Second, I thought the whole point of selling wargames online was to get more money to the developers? So, SSG is avoiding a greedy publisher's cut, a retail cut, and the cost of producing physical copies of the game, manual, and box, and they're still gonna charge more than what is the accepted price of a computer game? IMHO paying $50 under these circumstances is more than enough fan support.

Sarkus


You are my voice!



Kung Karl -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 2:49:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarkus

I'm glad to see my post generated a discussion.

While there is no doubt that many hard-core wargamers are willing to pay $59.99 for BiN, my fear is that it's too high a price for more casual wargamers and too high for those thinking about getting into the hobby. I've been watching this hobby get less and less mainstream with each passing year so Matrix's apparent strategy to just go after the existing market bothers me as short-sighted.

In addition, two other issues come to mind in response to some of the comments above. First, I don't buy the "gamers demand better graphics" argument. While it's true that BiN is more graphically advanced than many past wargames, I really doubt that it required the level of graphics modeling skill of something like Combat Mission, let alone a mainstream title. Wargames are still produced with relatively tiny development teams, so it's not like the cost has risen like it has with other types of games. Too argue that the price must go up to compensate strikes me as flawed.

Second, I thought the whole point of selling wargames online was to get more money to the developers? So, SSG is avoiding a greedy publisher's cut, a retail cut, and the cost of producing physical copies of the game, manual, and box, and they're still gonna charge more than what is the accepted price of a computer game? IMHO paying $50 under these circumstances is more than enough fan support.

Sarkus


You are my voice!


Mine too!

We customers lost and Matrix won when they dropped the retail chain. At first I thought that the price would drop when the middle hand was taken away. Boy was I wrong, it went up instead!

I would like to add that I dont have any anger against Matrix. If the world was a game money would be victory points and they are just trying to take as many they can from us.



scout1 -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 8:09:36 PM)

Guys,

As a consumer, I too will always wish for a lower price. I have seen threads in just about every game forum on this website concerning price. Almost universally, these are
all negative.

Frankly, I think you are all missing the point. This is a free market society. If a seller,
in this case Matrix Games, though they could sell a product for $250 each and have sufficient sales volume, this is EXACTLY what they'll do. Now if as a consumer, you really want to get the product but feel it is not appropriately priced, then DON'T buy it. What's the point of complaining, Matrix Games/2 by 3, like any other supplier will attempt to
maximize their profit. If they over price, the product doesn't sell and either they change their ways or they go out of business.

So, I would love to see their games priced equivalent to all the mass market games, but this is a niche market. They are free to approach their product and future in a manner that fits their plans.

So go ahead and price your games anyway you choose. I just hope for my selfish reasons that
a) I can afford them and,
b) it keeps a company that produces a product that I like stays in business.

Happy gaming !



mbMike -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 8:20:27 PM)

I think we defend Matrix because we know the people who are Matrix. If we didn't know them, nobody would defend these outrageous prices.

But like I said in another thread, if you are poor or can't afford it or simply won't pay for it, Matrix is one of the only companies I know that has quality products in the same genre for free. That's right, for free.

They are not shutting you out by making the price $60USD, they are simply limiting your choices. And if there was a comparable wargame down the street at the next web site, and they sold something just as good for 49.99, I'd go there, but guess what? There isn't another web-site. So you suck it up and pay the price and enjoy it.



marc420 -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 8:26:49 PM)

I'd say I probabaly own a smaller percentage of games that Matrix publishes than from most other publishers I like. Usually when I find a publisher that publishes games I like, I buy most of what they offer. Typically I find one game I like from the publisher, and then just from being around the forums and websites of the publisher I end up ordering a lot of their other stuff as well.

With Matrix, everything is priced at the very upper limit. And now with no retail sales, there's never anything in the discount bin from Matrix. So for everything on Matrix's site, its a very hard choice as to whether to buy the game or not. Therefore I make much fewer impulse buys from Matrix and end up owning fewer games from Matrix.

Also, since everything is priced at the upper limit of how much money they think they can take with people, to me there's a certain bad aftertaste from buying games from Matrix. If the game is good, then its just a matter of low-level grumbling about how much I paid for it. But if its a game that has problems or in which I lose interest in a short while after buying it, then I end up with a bad feeling about how much I paid.

Not to mention that with these prices any purchase from Matrix pretty much cleans out the game buying budget for awhile.

Either way, whenever I buy a game from Matrix, the high price means I'm almost always going to be saying that this is it and I won't be back to buy more for at least awhile.

Its just an impression, but for me I think Matrix ends up getting less of my money because of the high prices. Look at it this way.

BIN -- Matrix will get their $60 from me.
Campaigns on the Danube -- won't buy now. Normally might be interested, but BIN will strip budget. Anyways, I have doubts about the game from what I've read. Mainly about how much interest I'd have in the game longer term. With no discount bin, I'll probably never get this game.
WITP: At a lower price, I'd buy this game. But having cursed Grigsby's interfaces and game designs before, I simply won't pay $70 for this.
Starshatter: This is a game I might buy just to check out. Its not really a game I'm interested in, but close enough that I might check out. But not at Matrix's prices and the dent Matrix is putting in my budget with BIN.

So Matrix will get $10 to $20 extra from me for BIN. But there's at least three other games in their catalogue that I won't buy largely because of the way Matrix prices games.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 8:46:24 PM)

$60 for a single downloadable scenario and another scenario that I've already played 3-4 times. Ouch :(

What happens if I don't like that particular scenario?

I can't think of any other game that spends the time to build an entire engine and then hinges the success of it on a single experience. I hated the main scenario in Korsun Pocket, and I got burned because of it. I could see the potential for the engine, but just had zero interest in the main battle. Perhaps if Matrix purchased some of these great user-made scenarios and ported them to the new engine for inclusion in the release.. but to ask $60 for a single downloadable chance at fun (however long the scenario lasts) is just asking too much of this consumer.

Hmm, now I'm sounding bitter. :)



BravoZulu -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 9:19:03 PM)

OK, first, it is clearly up to Matrix and SSG to do what is best for them to maximize profits. Second, I think most would agree that there is a set of fans that will buy this game at $40 or at $80, the price is immaterial.

But let me say that I'm the example of the risk they are taking (calculated though it may be). I have been sitting on buying KP for about 2 months now, knowing that BIN was "imminent". But without a demo, without a "hard" cd and manual (at least w/o paying even more) and at a premium price, I'm struggling to make the purchase (ok, I *will* struggle when it's available). Sure, I can play TAO1 but I seriously doubt they want that to be representative of their brand spanking new $60 beauty.

So while they will certainly maximize the profits on the given purchasers, it will be very interesting to hear how they do with fencesitters such as myself. Furthermore, it doesn't exactly help to "expand the base" of wargamers when the cost of entry is so high. This may, although not certainly, impact the long term value of wargames -- I don't think anyone would argue that pricing WITP has this effect due to its grognard level.

Again, none of this is to say that Matrix is evil or any of that junk, just that I think there are some questions about the strategy. Frankly, given all of the above, it's amazing that I'm still on the fence. That is a real testament to the "word on the street" of KP, BIN and all the other Matrix games. I have HTTR and have enjoyed it tremendously (even if I stink at it) but atm I'm awfully hesitant to take the plunge.



Marc von Martial -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 9:19:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy

$60 for a single downloadable scenario and another scenario that I've already played 3-4 times. Ouch :(

What happens if I don't like that particular scenario?

I can't think of any other game that spends the time to build an entire engine and then hinges the success of it on a single experience. I hated the main scenario in Korsun Pocket, and I got burned because of it. I could see the potential for the engine, but just had zero interest in the main battle. Perhaps if Matrix purchased some of these great user-made scenarios and ported them to the new engine for inclusion in the release.. but to ask $60 for a single downloadable chance at fun (however long the scenario lasts) is just asking too much of this consumer.

Hmm, now I'm sounding bitter. :)


The game contains 9 scenarios and a grand campaign, not only one scenario. It also contains another spiced up version of TAO.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 9:36:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck
The game contains 9 scenarios and a grand campaign, not only one scenario. It also contains another spiced up version of TAO.


Do any of these scenarios take place in any setting other than normandy? Is the grand campaign anything more than the other scenarios attached to eachother?

I'm just going off of what I saw in Korsun Pocket, of course. If I had no interest in the main battle, then of course I had no interest in playing only the western side, or only the eastern side, or only the latter half of the battle, or a 'what-if' spinoff of the main battle.

Whiking whiteout was great, though, and I'm glad I had purchased Korsun at a time after the main release when user made scenarios had filled out the content a bit. I definately got the $30 value out of the game through Whiking as well as some of the "Husky" scenarios.

I would not hesitate to buy this game If I knew that a wide variety of scenarios were included - variety in both location, size, and complexity.



Rainbow7 -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 9:59:43 PM)

@molotov_billy,
by your previous message it almost seems that you are suggesting they take the free scenarios (from the users) and package them into something to sell. Why would you want this? There are already several free scenarios in the works for BiN. Check out the run5 website.



Marc von Martial -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 10:00:14 PM)

The scenarios are about the Normandy campaign of course, like the game name suggests.

We have:

- Breakout
- Carentan
- Cherbourg
- Falaise
- Montys Landing
- Mortain
- Omaha
- Rommel (´s Plan)

and the Overlord full campaign.


The grand campaign is the whole thing, not attached scenarios.



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 10:27:22 PM)

Marc, how recent is that list, from the ssg/r5 folk we heard that there was no full campaign anymore, so Rob and I are both planning a user one????



jungelsj_slith -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 10:52:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainbow

@molotov_billy,
by your previous message it almost seems that you are suggesting they take the free scenarios (from the users) and package them into something to sell. Why would you want this? There are already several free scenarios in the works for BiN. Check out the run5 website.


Hi Rainbow

My frustration is simply the price tag. I can understand a limited number of scenarios, if the price tag matched.

My suggestion was that the developers worked with the scenario designers to get their scenarios ported over to the new engine, in order to flesh out the content of the game. They did this with a patch to Korsun pocket, if I remember correctly?

If some of the user made scenarios had been included with Battles in Normandy, I would not hesitate to buy it - even considering the fact that I've played those scenarios already.



jungelsj_slith -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 10:53:40 PM)

quote:


The grand campaign is the whole thing, not attached scenarios.


Hmm, I guess I could argue that... nevermind :) I'll let it rest. I don't want to discourage anyone else from buying the game, because I want games like this to keep being made :)

I will just say that I hope the content of the next game matches the price tag. I have no doubt that the engine is incredible, but if I'm not particularly fond of this battle in history, all of that value is lost.



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 11:27:40 PM)

All the user made scenarios that we as a community PORT over to this new engine will be available for a free download.. fyi.. They, SSG, cannot include what hasn't been done, and these user made scenarios cannot be changed to BIN without access, so your request to have them included is not really one SSG could complete, nor should it stop you from getting it as many of these will be re-released...
If its just about price, think of it as 25 games.. I bet there are at least that many scenarios available for "free" to owners of BIN this time next year...

And the biggest selling point, it is a great pbem engine, I used to regularly kick the ia, now good players are a challenge..



jungelsj_slith -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 11:43:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
They, SSG, cannot include what hasn't been done, and these user made scenarios cannot be changed to BIN without access, so your request to have them included is not really one SSG could complete, nor should it stop you from getting it as many of these will be re-released...


That's not true, this is something that is very possible, especially for a smaller company that can't mass produce content like other developers can. It's something that has been done and will continue to be done with other games.

I think the point here is that BiN should stand as a worthwhile product on it's own. Something is not right when a game doesnt live up to it's value unless the players create large sections of content to fill out the game.

Scenarios of a single battle may be enough for alot of people, and I hope it is. I hope that the product sells well at $60. I can't spend $60 on a game where I may or may not enjoy the single battle. I will have to wait for said scenarios to come out.



Marc von Martial -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 12:08:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Marc, how recent is that list, from the ssg/r5 folk we heard that there was no full campaign anymore, so Rob and I are both planning a user one????


I took that list from the game's scenario menu.

Well the "Overlord" campaign is 32 days with "lot´s of units" involved (as per SSGs description [;)] )



ggallagher -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 12:18:42 AM)

I think the confusion here is the difference in the Overlord Campaign, and the Cobra scenario. Previous info from SSG led you to belive that both were more or less co-equal campaigns. I think that now Overlord is the Normandy Campaign that brings you up to (but not including) Cobra, with the latter being a separate scenario of less scope than the Overlord Campaign.



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 12:33:23 AM)

yep, 32 half days is the overlord, there was talk of a giant campaign being included, but thankfully they didn't try to add this or we wouldn't see this till even later!
GO BIN



Ron -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 4:09:57 AM)

I agree the price at $60 US seems a little high compared to other games, but I doubt if trying to raise the issue here will change anything with Matrix. As others have said 'vote' with your pocket book and simply don't buy it if you feel that strongly. That's the only way to send a strong message. Obviously Matrix feels it is right and they have a better idea than the rest of us based on previous experience.

I concur with marc420. I purchased KP and ATD this year and I will buy BIN, but probably nothing else in the forseeable future. Money is a concern yes, but also time as I know I will get a lot of gaming from BIN.


Ron



mbMike -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 5:35:53 AM)

I will make sure the positive reviews far outweigh the negative reviews before I buy. I fully expect to be buying BiN, but I don't operate on blind faith with any video game maker.



Fred98 -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 8:30:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Joe, that includes the costs of shipment and storage in store, merchandising ets etc etc.....

Wouldn't you kind of expect a discount to the consumer.....in the case of a download


Yes of course. And there is. Obviously the sales will be a pittance compared to Doom 3 and yet the price will be the same. The price should be higher than Doom 3. The savings is because of the digital download



Fred98 -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 8:39:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbMike

I will make sure the positive reviews far outweigh the negative reviews before I buy......I don't operate on blind faith .........




The predecessor games in the series, were The Ardennes Offensive 2 “TAO2” and Korsun Pocket “KP”

TAO2 is a free download and only runs on WIN 98

I play/played both games and both are excellent.

I know BIN too will be excellent because I am a fanboy ( [:D] ) of the series.

It is not a question of reviews – its a question of whether you like the genre
-



Hertston -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 9:12:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarkus

In addition, two other issues come to mind in response to some of the comments above. First, I don't buy the "gamers demand better graphics" argument. While it's true that BiN is more graphically advanced than many past wargames, I really doubt that it required the level of graphics modeling skill of something like Combat Mission, let alone a mainstream title. Wargames are still produced with relatively tiny development teams, so it's not like the cost has risen like it has with other types of games. Too argue that the price must go up to compensate strikes me as flawed.




Flawed it certainly is. It's actually the "casuals" and newcomers most likely to be put off by the price who are likely to be influenced by the graphics. The "$100 is cheap" brigade are far less likely to bother. I'm not in that catagory, but while KP looks better than the HPS games I still play them as often as KP.



$10 too much IMHO, which is why I'm still humming and haa-ing rather than putting my credit card on standby. That said, I know myself well enough to realise $10 will seem very insigificant once "BiN released" goes up on the front page ! [:D]



quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Obviously the sales will be a pittance compared to Doom 3 and yet the price will be the same.



You need to shop around... you can pick up D3 for half what BiN will cost. "Shopping around", of course, is something you can't do with digital downloads. Indeed there are some around here who seem to think doing so for retail boxes is only one step removed from piracy !



elmo3 -> RE: The price (9/14/2004 3:54:51 PM)

WITP was a "maybe" for me until I saw the price. It went off the radar at that point. BIN was a "must buy" for me until seeing the price. Now it is in the "maybe" category. I'll need to see some solid reviews and watch the forums for a while. These prices are at my upper limit for entertainment. If upcoming titles (particularly GGWAW, COA, and Command Operations) are in the same price range then it will mean tougher choices and fewer purchases for me.



Rubblestone -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 3:53:14 AM)

[:(] I was really looking forward to geting this game, but at this price I just cant justify it right now, so this game will go into my 'maby in the future' category... unfortunantly I rarely ever get to those games



mbMike -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 4:26:52 AM)

quote:

It is not a question of reviews – its a question of whether you like the genre


Fortress Europe.



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