RE: The price (Full Version)

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ravinhood -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 7:27:03 AM)

quote:

Mine too!

We customers lost and Matrix won when they dropped the retail chain. At first I thought that the price would drop when the middle hand was taken away. Boy was I wrong, it went up instead!

I would like to add that I dont have any anger against Matrix. If the world was a game money would be victory points and they are just trying to take as many they can from us. [unquote]

Yup, agreed, no BIN for me, well at least not through Matrix. Perhaps someone on ebay will help a poor soul out. ;) You know, sell his "used" cd just like it was a boxed game, without the box. Nothing wrong in that I don't believe. Long as he removes it from his hard-drive, right? Right. ;)



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 7:33:37 AM)

ravinhood, the cd also has a serial number, and upgrades, patches etc will only be available to that serial number, pretty obvious when abused, fyi



Adam Parker -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 7:35:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JSS

Adam,

BiN's price is an incredible value for what you're getting. I really think it's worth more than US$100.


Gents once again when it comes to price many are failing to realize the key point.

The retail cost of a game reflects:

1. Development
2. Production - a) Disc, b) Box, c) Manual, d) Barcoding, e) Packaging, f) Production labor
3. Legals
4. Wholesaler mark-up
5. Transport - a) Warehousing, b) Delivery, c) Import/export, d) Currency conversions
6. Merchandising
7. Retailer mark-up

In the case of Digital Download, whilst not being privy to the contract with Digital River, a business person realizes that the costs of items 2, 5, 6 do not apply.

Now either Digital River is demanding an exorbitant mark-up for its retail efforts, or something else is afoot. The industry estimates I've been given are that my $15 expected saving is highly conservative - ie: downloadable retail should provide savings of between 50% to 75% of physical.

So JSS before you recommend prices of $100 plus, look at the list above and realize what you are buying - basically development effort plus a series of mark-ups. It's your hard earned money - the labor of downloading, printing, burning et al, remain yours to bear.

Now I for one believe in rewarding excellent development effort but I do not believe in paying for production effort that doesn't exist. Matrix admits this is an experiment. I do not intend to let this experiment set a benchmark. Physical games (board and PC) are expensive as is. As I've pointed out, welcome to our hobby. I am however, not willing to tolerate par via Download.

Download I applaud, I hope it succeeds and matches the needs of the dial-up consumer too but only a fool would condone a physical price for cable/phone wire transaction.



ravinhood -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 7:45:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

ravinhood, the cd also has a serial number, and upgrades, patches etc will only be available to that serial number, pretty obvious when abused, fyi


I'm not worried, by the time I buy the game "used" all the patches and upgrades I care about will be out. ;)



TheHellPatrol -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 7:58:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

ravinhood, the cd also has a serial number, and upgrades, patches etc will only be available to that serial number, pretty obvious when abused, fyi


I'm not worried, by the time I buy the game "used" all the patches and upgrades I care about will be out. ;)
Yup, then you'll have everything you need...ummm...except for the serial number[8|]



ravinhood -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 8:02:48 AM)

And don't you think the person that sells the game has the serial number? You act like the serial number is a secret or something. lol



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 8:19:53 AM)

my point is that you probably will be able to buy a burned , not from matrix cd, and a serial number, but Matrix is well within there rights should multiple copies show up to lock this serial number out of future patches... all I am saying is that old adage, buyer beware, and if looks to good too be true it often is..
[:-]



ravinhood -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 8:49:02 AM)

Oh ok I understand you now, you're talking like me getting it soon after release, my projections are more like a year away. I saw the WitP cd's for sale on ebay for something like $4.99, I knew what that was and stayed a 100 yards away, but, around a year from now, if someone places a used version on ebay, I would probably buy that as long as it's from the states. I don't buy any foreign material anyways, I keep seeing this Taiwanian group selling brand new games for $20 or less without a box or manual, I know what those are also.

I have some serial number/ID number games already like OOTP baseball 5 ($19.99) and The Perfect General Online ($25), so I know how the serial number/ID thing works. If I sell these games I just pass along the serial numbers/ID codes to the next guy.

It's just another medium of entertainment for me, it's no biggie that I have it "right now" I'm too old for that kind of "excitement" out of any game anymore. I've been behind about a year on most game purchases anyways for a couple or three years now and saved a lot of money. $60-$70 games I just can't see spending that kind of money, when I can buy "two" games retail for that price or lord knows how many games from ebay or Amazon.com for $20 to $10 or less and get the same amount of entertainment out of them. I recently got Combat Mission Afrika Korp for $23 on ebay.

Remember I'm the one that got "EYSA" for .99 cents! Actually they should blame ebay and Amazon.com for my purchasing ways now, I used to buy everything new that came out, once a month, sometimes twice a month, but, since I discovered ebay and Amazon.com and bargain bin pricing, why waste the cash on retail? And don't tell me to support the developers, they aren't going to miss my $70. ;) And don't tell me "if everybody thought like I did there wouldn't be any developers for these games" cause we obviously know everybody doesn't think or do the same things. ;) It's all about "priorities", my priorities for my $$ these days go for games that are reasonably priced and most often on a retail shelf. Other than that my priorities goto ebay and Amazon.com.

I'm tossing around whether to buy RTW or The Sims 2 right now, both aren't really major to me, but, one or the other may make it to my hard-drive from a retail price. I'm not a total wargamer by a long shot, I like variety. BIN was high on my list till I saw the price though. WitP was expensive also, but, it never really was on my list at all. I don't really care for monster wargames. I did buy "SPARTAN" this year, it was $29.95 at Best Buy and I felt a reasonable price for a new release.

Now, I'm just wondering if "Combat Leader" is going to follow the same pricing pattern? Matrix is really cutting the throats of a lot of prospective buyers I think, but, I guess as long as their coffers fill up with the ones that do buy, they don't care about the ones that pass them up because of high prices. I don't think they will get many "newcomers" to the genre with these kinds of prices either. It's almost like they are becoming the wargamers company for the RICH & the FAMOUS! lol



Capitaine -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 1:26:02 PM)

Whatever the costs, the price is not merely a function of cost. Like cars and houses, the price is "whatever the market will bear". The higher the rate of return and the more inelastic the demand (and I'd say it's pretty inelastic given the hobby) then the more money the producers can make and the higher the price. This helps also to keep the business alive in several ways. There's no basis to sell the product based on "cost"; how would one evaluate the efforts of the designers anyway? Matrix and SSG assess the market and arrive at a price that will cover their costs AND give them maximum return. That's just good business.



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 2:40:08 PM)

quote:

Matrix is really cutting the throats of a lot of prospective buyers I think



I remember you sending me a Spartan upgrade, Did you like cmak? I was dissappointed they are not reverse compatible engines, AI'd pay more for that and chose to end witt barbarrossa to berlin, what a great game!!

Anyway re your statement above that is my only area of concern.. already one of my pbem new friends has bailed out on buying this game... too bad really
Ravinhood.. once you buy BIN, sooner I hope than later lets play a pbem game!!!
Consider this a challenge



ravinhood -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 4:25:27 PM)

I'm playing some CMBB PBEM's as we type. (heh can't use as we speak here cause in cyberspace no one hears you. Well unless you have Roger Wilco.) lol

That's something I do enjoy about turn based games like these is that they are PBEMable. Hard to play an rts by email. heh

Did you get "Gates of Troy" addon for Spartan? I didn't. After seeing the AI of 1.017 and knowing full well it was the same in "Gates of Troy", I didn't feel like having to mod the AI all over again for basically the same gameplay, just a different title. I think I like my Spartan "Warlords" modification the best, I have every faction hating me from the start, talk about trying to keep your head above water, the impossible difficulty is now "impossible".

But, in regards to pricing, Slitherene has very good pricing on their games and they are "SMALLER" than Matrix, so, I can't follow this propaganda that developers need HUGE amounts of money to stay afloat in this genre. Iain also stated that overall they sold 100,000 copies of "LEGION", so that's something else that doesn't have to remain a secret and taboo. Spartan was definitely their best product by far and now Iain says they are NOT going to charge a monthly fee to play "Legion Arena" online (there was enough flak from the customer base that they changed their decision), just a one time fee of $19.99, so see, they aren't trying to "gouge" their customers, they are giving them quantity and quality for a quality price.

Shrapnel's Dominions II is now $34 at NWS, I'm thinking about buying that also. A little over my $30 price range max, but, they have sold huge amounts of this game it seems, it became very popular overnight and Shrapnel is another that is a very SMALL company.
HPS games of all types can be bought for $32 @ NWS, that's a big savings from HPS's main site and I found another site that sells them for .23 cents less than NWS! lol

Now if only NWS could get those Matrix titles, but, Matrix is no boxing, no manualing these games so they can make as much money as possible, while shrinking the genre at the same time, it all will boil down to supply and demand, my theory is though, the more customers you have the more opportunities to gain more customers along the way. I also believe one can price themselves out of existance, watched a lot of hardware and grocery stores and even hobby shops do that around where I live.

In my book though for $60, one should get a box, a manual, a cd and free shipping. :) And for $70 one should get a kiss also, I liked to get kissed when I get ****ed! lol



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 4:37:12 PM)

lol
do you own TAO3 korsun?
PBEM if you do, my normally sched guy is unavailable now..let me know soon, or I'll go back to bed :) I am sooo tired after getting 5hours of sleep...



ravinhood -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 5:29:00 PM)

5hours sleep? You get that much? Since my military days I'm lucky if I sleep 5 hours. Be a man! lol

And nope, don't own any Korsun or HTTR atm. I'm very picky about my games these days, gotta be GOOD PRICE (in my range) and a good game to go with it. And there IS competition out there for all games, Matrix might hold a large portion of the "hex-based" part of wargaming, but, hardly holds the wargamer genre by the balls imho. There's HPS/Talonsoft (TOAW cow) out there, Battlefront and Shrapnel, Slitherine, Creative Assembly, Triumph Studios, Sid Meier/Fraxis (when he takes a notion), and there's some new kids on the block doing games like "Take Command 1861 (civil war game), "Strength & Honor" (Napoleanic game I believe), "Knights of Honor" (Medieval game simular to MTW I believe) of course all aren't your groggy grog games, but, well at least the prices are right and everything Matrix makes hasn't been the greatest, take a look at this game shall we? ;)

http://gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchreview.asp?reviewid=240247

Of course this is an SSG title really, and I will give credit to SSG developers, they have most often always made great games (Carrier Force/Europe Ablaze, Battles of the Civil War), lil samey, but, great all the same. I spent years playing Warlords. It's also not the "quality" of the game I'm questioning really, it's that above board price and this is the 2nd one in a row to be well over the norm of computer game prices for a mere wargame. You'd think if a genre was failing the last thing they would do would be to over-price themselves out of perspective "new" customers.



Owen -> RE: The price (9/15/2004 5:50:09 PM)

I'll weigh in with my opinion on the pricing issue.

My personal gut feeling is that SSG and Matrix would be far better served in the long run if they priced BIN lower. It would make current customers happy, retain marginal customers and possible draw in a number of new customers.

When people go to the mall to buy a game for the PC or the Playstation the normal price is roughly $50 for a newly released top level game. This price is firmly entrenched in people's minds. Many games are cheaper on release and most all games become cheaper over time. Any game that costs more than $50 really stands out.

Never forget that there are tons of gaming options on the internet now. A previous poster pointed out a few I had never heard of. Just do a google search on 'wargame' or 'pbem wargame' and start surfing the links. It's a buyers market when it comes to games.

So Matrix prices BIN at $60. The way I see it they might sell 10,000 copies to fanatical wargamers who are fine with the price and another 10,000 to wargamers who are vaguely discontented and wondering if they will buy from Matrix again. They will sell next to no copies to newcomers or casual buyers or impulse buyers. Meanwhile they harvest a bunch of ill will and become known for high prices.

But if Matrix prices BIN at $40 they still sell the 10,000 to the fanatics and they still sell the 10,000 to the second group who are now happy and are sure they will buy from Matrix again. But they might also sell another 10,000 to casual wargamers who would not buy at the higher price and maybe even another 10,000 to casual buyers, impulse buyers and wargaming newcomers. They also gain reams of good will.

My numbers are pure speculation but I think the concept is valid. There's a natural tendency for game creators to feel they have made a wonderful product that should command a high price. But feeling special does not make market realities go away.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 4:00:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: JSS

Adam,

BiN's price is an incredible value for what you're getting. I really think it's worth more than US$100.


Gents once again when it comes to price many are failing to realize the key point.

The retail cost of a game reflects:

1. Development
2. Production - a) Disc, b) Box, c) Manual, d) Barcoding, e) Packaging, f) Production labor
3. Legals
4. Wholesaler mark-up
5. Transport - a) Warehousing, b) Delivery, c) Import/export, d) Currency conversions
6. Merchandising
7. Retailer mark-up



Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.

If the SSG website gets cluttered with pictures of our new Ferraris, (the traditional choice of game developers who have suddenly made bucketloads of money), then you would be entitled to cry foul, but I can assure you that its not going to happen.

Gregor



TheHellPatrol -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 4:09:35 AM)

@Gregor...There are those of us that understand that what you do is a labor of love[&o][:)].



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 5:20:25 AM)

my hats off.. really



pterrok -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 4:54:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!


I don't know, all you need to do is find a rich widow...[:D]



Erik Rutins -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 5:55:36 PM)

Guys,

As Gregor said, none of us are getting rich here. We do this because we enjoy it and because these are the games we like to play. Despite theories to the contrary, we're not cutting throats or looking to squeeze the last penny out of you. It's this simple - this is the price that we need the game to be at for SSG to continue making games. Please make your decision based on that and realize that the wargame market is not the same as the mainstream computer game market.

Regards,

- Erik



Erik Rutins -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 5:57:51 PM)

Karl,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kung Karl
Mine too!

We customers lost and Matrix won when they dropped the retail chain. At first I thought that the price would drop when the middle hand was taken away. Boy was I wrong, it went up instead!

I would like to add that I dont have any anger against Matrix. If the world was a game money would be victory points and they are just trying to take as many they can from us.


The fact is that had we continued in retail, the owners of Matrix would probably have had nervous breakdowns by now and we would also be out of business. With respect, I see that as a bigger loss to customers than a $10 price increase.

Regards,

- Erik



Adam Parker -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 5:58:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.
Gregor


Cheers Gregor. But what you're looking for is venture capital, if not benevolent venture capital and it does exist (and I too wish to find it [;)] )

Fear not, myself and many colleagues across a variety of efforts in this hobby feel the same way and I must tell you, the catch cry that war game development is done "for the love of it" continues to wear thin on me.

Of course state of the art AI performance and innovative design does not come at the loss of merely a few hours labour (Aussie spelling for an Aussie).

However, you can't deny the reasonable expectation that by cutting the costs of production, one isn't entitled to expect some flow back to the consumer.

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Adam.



IanAM -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 6:13:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.


Completely agree there - indeed, the whole issue of not having a scenario in which to play as the US/UK probably did harm to the sales of KP.

I'm not saying do not model the Eastern Front, or that it's not worth having Axis forces playable, but surely bundling such options with a smattering of more familiar battles could only be an advantage and widen the appeal of the game...

I bought KP and didn't really start getting into it at all until the user made scenarios on the Run5 website started to appear.

I'm sure BiN will appeal to a wider audience...even if many are slightly jaded by the sheer number of Normandy/D-Day games.



2gaulle -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 6:15:17 PM)

quote:

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.


there is something true here. After buying KP I only play KP scenario many month after the Bulge one. In fact I have played ATD before KP.



Clipper1968 -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 6:19:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IanAM

Completely agree there - indeed, the whole issue of not having a scenario in which to play as the US/UK probably did harm to the sales of KP.



It doen't matter as I like playing as german.[:)]

"Panzer Vorwaerts!"[:D][:D][:D]



IanAM -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 6:26:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pumba1968
It doen't matter as I like playing as german.[:)]


So do I, some of the time, and depending on a game scenario.

But the majority of Matrix's market must surely be in the US/UK/Australia/Canada etc. - and I'm willing to bet a big chunk of that market enjoy playing for their 'home side' - the Western Allies - and aren't as likely to buy a WWII game that doesn't involve that option...



Clipper1968 -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 7:13:55 PM)

Yes I think you are probably correct but the main purpose of a wargame is to offer good time as you can get the opportunity to establish your strategies and tactics, so whatever the country you are playing:it is the way I am thinking...[:)] The most important aspect is the theater of operations which allows an interesting challenge.

I have even been playing those British against the Emperor, too sad...[;)]and the French army.
"Vive l'Empereur".[:D]



marc420 -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 7:28:41 PM)

Actually, I've never really found that much with wargames. At least that's not my impression.

I play a lot against the AI. And I'll play either side. As I get good at a game, I tend to take the weaker side for a challenge against the AI.

I've only played a few PBEM games over the years with various games. But I generally have not encountered many people who insist on playing only one nation.

If anything, I feel like I've run into players that are more comfortable playing Offense or Defense than I've encountered players who insist on playing a particular nation.

If you are curious, it might be interested to go read the PBEM forum on the Run 5 / SSG site. From that you might get a feel for how many players only want to play one side.

In the tournaments that Run5 does, the sides are handed out randomly. I've seen other formats where two players play two games against each other, each taking both sides between the two games.

In general, I get the sense that most players play these games for the competition or problem-solving aspects than from any sort of nationalist point-of-view.

I haven't really paid much attention. Are many of SSG's or Matrix-published games translated to languages other than English?



marc420 -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 7:58:26 PM)

Hi Gregor.

I really do appreciate what you guys do. And I'm not under any ideas that ya'll are getting rich and driving Ferraris.

However, when it starts getting to the point where I need a divorce settlement to afford to buy games, I'm at least going to whine a bit about it. :)

OK, I'm exaggerating ... a bit.

I've said it before out here, but I'll risk repeating it. I'll buy BIN at $60. But that's a compliment to you guys down at SSG. If I didn't think this was one of the best games to come out in years, I wouldn't buy it at that price.



freeboy -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 8:43:03 PM)

quote:

I've said it before out here, but I'll risk repeating it. I'll buy BIN at $60. But that's a compliment to you guys down at SSG. If I didn't think this was one of the best games to come out in years, I wouldn't buy it at that price

Gregor,
Ditto on the best game part, and I would by this on a maybe basis exceipt for the new found pbem component... wow this is great, hope it gets released soon



David Heath -> RE: The price (9/16/2004 9:53:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.
Gregor


Cheers Gregor. But what you're looking for is venture capital, if not benevolent venture capital and it does exist (and I too wish to find it [;)] )

Fear not, myself and many colleagues across a variety of efforts in this hobby feel the same way and I must tell you, the catch cry that war game development is done "for the love of it" continues to wear thin on me.

Of course state of the art AI performance and innovative design does not come at the loss of merely a few hours labour (Aussie spelling for an Aussie).

However, you can't deny the reasonable expectation that by cutting the costs of production, one isn't entitled to expect some flow back to the consumer.

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Adam.


Hello Adam

I agree that Korsun may not had been the best batte to select but I have heard many gamers complain "What this battle again, why not do something new" When we selected Korsun Pocket no one had done that battle and we wanted to do something different. Battles in Normandy required a major design change. The whole SSG team really expanded the game system to make Battles in Normandy work so well. This is not just another battle in the same old system.

David



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