RE: Rampant pro policy thread

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Erik Rutins -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 1:32:21 AM)
Eric, quote: ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick. Oh I know about the discount thing on Doom, I was trying to make a point about the price of a mass-produced game versus a niche/specialist game ....... but I might have missed the target[:)] We made the text regarding VAT very obvious and we laid out BEFORE the last screen (whereas the setting DR had before was just fine print on the final screen) what the VAT charges were by country. Because of the differences, we don't know the exact price until we have your address. We also added an actual VAT Pop-Up window so that (unless you have a pop-up blocker), you CANNOT miss the fact that VAT is not included in the prices. We also changed the structure of how the store works. Initially, DR had no final confirmation screen that showed all charges (including VAT) before the final acceptance and transfer of payment. Now that screen exists. This is as good as we can get with this store and I think that it provides ample information to warn the customer that VAT will be applied as well as to give them a chance to review and cancel if they want based on the VAT charge. Moreover, we also fixed the conversion problem that was causing some prices in other currencies to be either higher or lower compared to the expected exchange rate. Regards, - Erik

Fred98 -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:34:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Larac Most games retail at 40-50 in the states, then bargain down quickly. In Australia, most top notch games, are released at AUD89. Even the junk games are often released at AUD89 BIN is less than that and therefore a bargain. But it is more than a bargain. It is one of the best wargames ever. It’s predecessor, TAO2, was played for years by dedicated wargamers. If no games follow BIN, BIN will be played and new scenarios created, for 5 years or more! If I were to get DOOM 3 ( and I will not) the box would be thrown away immediately. I am sure the controls are simple, so the manual would soon follow. All I want is the CD, a DVD box to store it in and a shelf to store the DVD boxes. Can’t imagine what any body wants a box for. But I do understand the argument – no box and no printed manual so there ought to be savings. And the counter argument is that the savings get eaten up by the low sales of wargames generally. Both good arguments. -

bostonrpgmania -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:45:31 AM)
well If not anybody wants the box, why matrix games sells boxes? There are demands and there will be supply as simples as that

EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:52:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins We also added an actual VAT Pop-Up window so that (unless you have a pop-up blocker), you CANNOT miss the fact that VAT is not included in the prices. - Erik Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could. " We made the text regarding VAT very obvious and we laid out BEFORE the last screen (whereas the setting DR had before was just fine print on the final screen) what the VAT charges were by country. Because of the differences, we don't know the exact price until we have your address" 1) You have separate order screens for the UK and the rest of Europe and since the UK rate is fixed you should be able to display the price with VAT. 2) On the initial order screen with the games available there is no mention that the prices quoted are pre-VAT. I then click 'add to cart' and the following information is printed - "*Information about VAT Any digital products sold into the European Union include a VAT (Tax) charge of 17.5%. Any physical products sold into the European Union include a VAT charge. However the VAT rate, and hence the total price, may alter once your shipping destination has been selected. For customers from Austria 20%, Belgium 21%, Denmark 25%, France19.6%, Germany16%, Ireland 21%, Italy 20%, Netherlands 19%, Spain 16%, Sweden 25%, and UK the national VAT rate of 17.5% will be applied. For all other EU customers, the UK VAT rate of 17.5% will be applied. A VAT invoice can be viewed and printed at the end of your purchase." imho, this is not clear, it states that the price includes VAT but since the order screen is supposedly UK only (other EU citizens would surely use the 'Europe' order screen) one could quite easily presume that the initially quoted price included VAT. Think of it this way, the first page is your 'shop window', it lists the products you have available and the price. How would you feel if you walked into a shop, saw an item you wanted to buy, took it to the checkout at which point the shop assistant told you that the item you wanted was 17.5% more expensive than as priced 'out front'. Imho your 'shop window' should at least boldly state 'Note: These prices do not include VAT'. I dunno, maybe it's just me [sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]

MadDawg -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:56:45 AM)
Personally I dont have a problem with the pricing at all...people know it up front and can decide if its worth the purchase based on the information at hand. It will either work or not based on sales, and people will vote with their wallets one way or another. What I personally do have a problem with is the state WITP was released in. It was buggy and even the tutorial could not be completed without a consistant crash to desktop. If I am paying a premium price for a game, forgoing the box, manual and even CD I most certainly DO expect a game to be polished when I receive it. Many games pull this off at normal prices and I do not want to play the part of a beta tester for a product I paid top dollar for. And that is the reason I am not purchasing BIN at this point. Not becuase of the price, I would have paid double for a polished version of WITP but because, in my opinion, I expected a more solid product than what I recieved for my money. Dawg

EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:59:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hertston quote: ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick. In fairness the "small print" was actually quite large, but your post and the fact I only read it (the small print that is, not your post) because I was looking for it make the point nicely. I'm sure it's not dirty tricks, but it is starting to verge on obstinate stupidity. I'm not sure if it's Digital River or Matrix, but somewhere it still just isn't sinking in that the headline price should be VAT inclusive for products aimed at consumers rather than businesses (who can reclaim it). It WILL lose Matrix both goodwill and repeat business... but we have made the point so many times now without a satisfactory response.. well, it's their loss [:(] No I don't think it's a 'dirty trick' either but I was on a roll and we all know what it's like. Anyway, I replied to Erik Rutin's post first (that 'roll' thing again[;)]) but I hope you concur. And apologies to 'Hexed' for hijacking his thread.

David Heath -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 3:13:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania well If not anybody wants the box, why matrix games sells boxes? There are demands and there will be supply as simples as that We did it so gamers without high speed internet can still get the games mailed to them. David

Fred98 -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 3:40:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadDawg And that is the reason I am not purchasing BIN at this point. Not becuase of the price, .........but because, in my opinion, I expected a more solid product ...... Of course WITP is made by 2by3 and BIN is made by SSG - 2 different companies - Matrix is only the publisher.

Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 4:15:19 AM)
Hijacked thread Eric? I wasn't aware I owned it hehe :) Silver linings ah ya gotta love em. It sucks being poor, but it isn't all down side. By the time I finally get the money for almost any game, you more well off people have often already bought it months ago, and already reported on all the initial headaches. I hope you eager types now I appreciate your sacrifices :)

Golf33 -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 4:23:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could. I use FireFox as well. When a site attempts to pop up a new window, you will see an "(i)" icon like this in the bottom left of the browser window: [image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/8865/Ay747552473.gif[/image] Double-click on the "(i)" icon and a dialog will pop up showing you the site that is attempting to open a pop-up window and you can select "Unblock" to allow the site to do that. It's also possible (and quite easy) to set the block/unblock for specific sites through the Tools > Options > Web Features menu. Regards 33

dinsdale -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 5:16:24 AM)
$60, that's fine for me, I already have KP and I'll buy BiN when I look like getting some time to play it. But what exactly is this new sales and price scheme going to do to the hobby? Does Matrix intend to do what HPS does? Sell minute quantities to anyone lucky enough to find the site and trusting enough to buy the product at that price? Seems to me that the hobby is relying on the same customers who are still alive and buying from 10 years ago. Are we watching the repeat of buggy whip manufacturing? How exactly does the market grow with this sales technique? KP was a nice shiny box on the New Releases shelf, BiN is tucked away in some dark corner of the internet. Hope that works, despite it appearing to go against all sense. *edit: Just out of curiosity Les, how many of these games have you paid for and downloaded? WiTP? BiN? Being so pro-policy and all that.

Montbrun -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 5:21:49 AM)
You VOTE with your dollars - I want to see Matrix and their affiliates around for a very long time. Therefore, I'm willing to pay their asking price for the quality products and support that they provide. IMHO, these products are worth ALOT more than Matrix is charging, and is a great value for the money in this "niche" wargame market. I vote Matrix.... Brad

Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 6:09:50 AM)
"Just out of curiosity Les, how many of these games have you paid for and downloaded? WiTP? BiN? Being so pro-policy and all that." An interesting question actually dinsdale. I haven't yet had the pleasure of downloading BiN. But I was not aware I was required to own something to have an opinion on it. Perhaps having downloaded it would seem to some to quailify me to comment on it. I don't see it that way. It is well enough known (I think), that I have broadband access. It is also (I think) well enough known I have the ability to burn anything I might download to cd and or dvd. So I suppose I can't be considered one of those, that perceives being required to have broadband or access to a burner of some sort as an obstacle. Now, I must say, I do indeed know of persons that either do not have broadband or a dvd burner. But then the reverse is self evident. Those persons know me. And a logical thinking person can clearly then deduce, that a person could make the simple leap of logic and assume, hey, why not go to Hexed Gamer's place, borrow his broadband and download a game onto my system via his broadband connection. Then let him burn the damn thing for me. Yes I know what you are thinking, that would give me free access to the download, nice scam. No, not really. He connects my broadband cable to his system. He downloads onto his computer not mine. I put my burner drive in his system, he burns to his own disc, I remove the drive, presto, I just made a non argument out of not having broadband or a burner. What? are you guys telling me you are such wretched schmucks you have not one friend with broadband or a dvd burner drive? Where the heck are you living exactly? Sounds like it is way to remote for my liking. My only burden where downloading is concerned, is credit card. I don't have one. Not impossible to borrow someone's though. Or the simple need to get that much cash, but then I am used to saving up for what I want. I waited several months before I was able to pay for HTTR. It was worth the wait. I am not expecting to make ANY wargaming purchases before january, regardless of how cool the game. Might find it under the tree as a note to me from wife saying "go download such and such game later". It wouldn't be the first time a gift was a note with permission granted hehe. Now outside of downloads, I get games through a variety of methods. I got Eric Young Squad Assault from David Heath personally for doing him a favour. I got the Steel Panthers Team Edition as a result of being part of the team. I got Close Combat 2 as a gift from a friend online. Recently got Uncommon Valour in a trade with a friend online. I get a lot of things online from guys simply being damned generous actually. The most amazing will likely always remain the two large boxes of models from a gamer from LA. I was stunned to find those in the mail. But I don't always "possess" physically each and every game I make comment on. I don't always consider it "vital". I have played a great many demos. Although I don't think demos are always a perfect solution. Some get in a snit over me commenting about games I don't have, or processess I have not yet experienced. But it has been my experience, that some people actually get off on being pissed off. Can't be avoided it seems. I was pleased to hear that Matrix Games has a good relationship with the Warfare HQ/Armchair General forum which is defacto Armchair Genral magazine people. I have long thought Matrix Games needed a decent wargamers voice out there in shelf land. it appears they have that. I might even look into a subscription, even though I seem to get about the max input from being on the above mentioned forums already.

bostonrpgmania -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 6:21:32 AM)
quote: ********************* David We did it so gamers without high speed internet can still get the games mailed to them. ******************** well, for me, box also counts I am not just viewing the box as a storage device but as a part of game design That is why I am intended to buy the box for KP:AtD when it would be available from the Matrixgames. Cover art of the box seen from the net is hard to resist not to buy It is like collecting LP and enjoy its covers as well Well Maybe it sound weird to some but for me, I have several (good) games that I bought in jewel cases (games that I missed in the original release) version but also purchased boxed version if I luckily found them at the store later.

bostonrpgmania -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 6:24:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Heath quote: ORIGINAL: bostonrpgmania well If not anybody wants the box, why matrix games sells boxes? There are demands and there will be supply as simples as that We did it so gamers without high speed internet can still get the games mailed to them. David well, for me, box also counts I am not just viewing the box as a storage device but as a part of game design That is why I am intended to buy the box for KP:AtD when it would be available from the Matrixgames. Cover art of the box seen from the net is hard to resist to buy It is like collecting LP and enjoy its covers as well Well Maybe it sound weird to some but for me, I have several (good) games that I bought in jewel cases (games that I missed in the original release) version but also purchased boxed version if I luckily found them at the store later.

Fred98 -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 6:25:31 AM)
Hexed Gamer is actually Les! You write just like Les so you must be ! Welcome back!

Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 6:46:29 AM)
I thought the sig was a bit blatant actually Joe :) Just decided to add it the other day actually. Yep there is no one that writes like me :)

bostonrpgmania -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 7:14:47 AM)
I have read many articles by Les-sarge in this forum Welcome back, too

dinsdale -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 7:30:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer I haven't yet had the pleasure of downloading BiN. But I was not aware I was required to own something to have an opinion on it. Perhaps having downloaded it would seem to some to quailify me to comment on it. I don't see it that way. You can have an opinion on anything you like. I would have thought with your verbal gung ho support though that you'd be an example to everyone and cough up the $140 the last two games have cost, which you fully support. It just seems a tad hypocritical to shout "phooey" at those who have baulked at the price, when you've done the same. :shrug: quote: I am not expecting to make ANY wargaming purchases before january, regardless of how cool the game. Might find it under the tree as a note to me from wife saying "go download such and such game later". It wouldn't be the first time a gift was a note with permission granted hehe. Can't fault that :) quote: Some get in a snit over me commenting about games I don't have, or processess I have not yet experienced. But it has been my experience, that some people actually get off on being pissed off. Can't be avoided it seems. Thats right, though generally when commenting about a game, or game play, having experience of playing it would be the pre-requisite for comment, but who am I to say. Maybe I'll comment on Doom3 or other games I'll never play. I'm more worried at the guaranteed shrinkage that online only sales will cause, as well as people who might not have all the tools to download those games. It's a shame, I'm sure Matrix is doing it out of necessity, but that doesn't change the danger signs this flies about the hobby.

EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 1:46:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Golf33 quote: ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could. I use FireFox as well. When a site attempts to pop up a new window, you will see an "(i)" icon like this in the bottom left of the browser window: [image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/8865/Ay747552473.gif[/image] Double-click on the "(i)" icon and a dialog will pop up showing you the site that is attempting to open a pop-up window and you can select "Unblock" to allow the site to do that. It's also possible (and quite easy) to set the block/unblock for specific sites through the Tools > Options > Web Features menu. Regards 33 Whilst that's 'do-able', it's only in retrospect that you know that a 'pop-up' contains useful information (i.e. the 'Matrix' one). With all due respect to Erik, with pop-up blockers becoming ever more common-place (Both MSN and Yahoo now feature them in their toolbars)for him to say "We also added an actual VAT Pop-Up window so that ..... you CANNOT miss the fact that VAT is not included in the prices." is slightly disengenous. It should be CLEARLY stated on the opening page. I suppose I should be clear here, I have no intention of purchasing any of the games Matrix has on sale at present, not because of the pricing or the VAT issue but simply because they are not of any particular interest to me.[:)]

Hertston -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:30:12 PM)
<----- Yahoo pop-up blocker user. This is just getting silly. Anyone who chooses to unblock would do so because they knew what was there before they started - everybody else would just assume it was spam, the blocking of which is the whole point of a pop-up blocker. If it can't be done as Eric and I have suggested, it can't be done. So be it... (shrugs shoulders [&:] ).

Marc von Martial -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 2:57:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Golf33 quote: ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames Thankyou Erik for that reply, however, I use Firefox as my default browser (for security reasons as much as any) so I wouldn't see any pop-ups (which are frankly a pain in the **** anyway). It also makes using 'quotes' rather difficult so apologies if this reads less easily than it could. I use FireFox as well. When a site attempts to pop up a new window, you will see an "(i)" icon like this in the bottom left of the browser window: [image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/8865/Ay747552473.gif[/image] Double-click on the "(i)" icon and a dialog will pop up showing you the site that is attempting to open a pop-up window and you can select "Unblock" to allow the site to do that. It's also possible (and quite easy) to set the block/unblock for specific sites through the Tools > Options > Web Features menu. Regards 33 Exactly, know your tools [;)] Bullshit add popups are a PIA of course, but there´s also good and valid use of them. After all pop ups are still a legal webdesign feature [;)] It´s the same with email SPAM filters. If you use them make sure you know how they work and how you can add trusted sources, otherwise you might miss some important email one day. And that´s definetly not the problem of the sender then. Unfortunatly all this little "helpers" are not so smart to allways tell who´s good and who´s bad.

Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 3:22:43 PM)
dinsdale, I have said it before, I will obviously need to say it again. Sometimes my opinion is sourced by a multitude of sources that DO have the game, HAVE played the game, and if I elect to support a view point of people I know to trust, then my not having had the game, is not relevant in all cases. It's not like driving where you can't drive without a license hehe, everyone is allowed to have an opinion or through one support another's opinion. Gamers and reviewers put out opinions all the time after having payed and or played. It doesn't bother me to pass along the sentiments. You speak of "danger signs". That's too opinion. Danger signs that is My idea of a "danger sign" is everyone insisting a game has to be in stunning richly detailed real time 3d to be any good, because it is required to attract joe blow gamer who is often to dim to be capable of enjoying an old style game that is "too boring". First off, I don't care if that just insulted joe average gamer. Second, that just fuels the myth joe average gamer is ever going to want to become joe average wargamer. All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play. Korsun Pocket no real time 3d. Highway to the Reich, no real time 3d. Strategic Command, no real time 3d. Uncommon Valour, no real time 3d. War in the Pacific, no real time 3d. Battles in Normandy, no real time 3d. Steel Panthers, no real time 3d. The Operational Art of War, no real time 3d Campaign series, no real time 3d. Panzer Campaigns, no real time 3d. Squad battles, no real time 3d. Civilization series, no real time 3d. Heroes of Might and Magic series, no real tme 3d. Close Combat has gone 3d, and a lot think it is a bad idea. Panzer General series, the moment it went into quasi 3d they say it ruined it. Those are all acknowledged great games that I know of (I have excluded some, because contrary to popular belief, I don't actually know everything :)). I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame". Combat Mission uses 3d, but they gave it WEGO system, and I think that makes a substantial difference. Highway to the Reich uses real time, but isn't 3d, and that makes a difference. The only danger I see for computer wargaming, is game makers waste to much time and effort pandering to people that never wanted to be wargamers in the first place, and not enough energy delivering a great wargame in the first place. There is a reason why people still pay top dollar for ASL on eBay when they can't buy if from MMP fast enough. It's because it is a real wargame, and has remained as such regardless of the trend in compuer wargames to imply you need to dummy down a product to make it sell. The hobby will remain so long as it turns out games the real wargamers can respect. It will die only when it loses that respect. And there will NEVER be a day when you can't see the jocks for the crowds of wargamers milling about. It will never be "cool" to be a historian, as much as it is "cool" to be a quarterback. Thus, I don't expect in 10 years or 20 years, to see a massive influx of wargamers, regardless of how "cute" a wargame designer makes his product. The inclination to study the past will remain the same among our population. What our hobby needs is just something "fresh". How about someone re creating the popularity of Up Front, but not necessarily that specific game, and matching it with the power to play it competitively online like a good game of poker.

freeboy -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 3:30:22 PM)
quote: Close Combat has gone 3d, and a lot think it is a bad idea Really? CM may have been the best breakthrough wargame into a realtime arena, total war uses a modified rt but I love the wego system for cm. 3d in board strategy board games is somewhat dead end, what would the point be? but in the cm system I love being up high giving orders, and then watching from the grunts point of view... granted it is dated now at what 6years of age?

Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 3:44:39 PM)
When a game is old AND still popular. that is a clear sign it was a good idea. I have lost count of how many "neat" games were not really neat enough.

freeboy -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 3:54:03 PM)
right, many times I have gone back and palyed some old cid Myer,sp?, game, colonization etc. Now its Go BIN and WITP do to the ease of pbem

EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 4:42:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hertston <----- Yahoo pop-up blocker user. This is just getting silly. Anyone who chooses to unblock would do so because they knew what was there before they started - everybody else would just assume it was spam, the blocking of which is the whole point of a pop-up blocker. If it can't be done as Eric and I have suggested, it can't be done. So be it... (shrugs shoulders [&:] ). I fear Matrix could fall foul of Trading Standards legislation in the UK - something I have NO desire to see happen. I'll pm the powers that be so that they are aware.

riverbravo -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 5:09:53 PM)
Hi Les!!!

EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 9:54:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play. ............................. I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame". There are plenty of 2d games that have come out over the years that feature 'lame gameplay' too. Additionally one should consider how long 2d computer wargames have been in production as against 3d 'real-time' (or 'continuous-pausible-time' if you like). Given the luddite tendencies of sections of the wargame market it's not surprising that developers are yet to fully embrace 3d technology. That said, 'Rome: Total War' seems as promising a candidate as any for the epithet 'great wargame' but time will tell [;)]. So let's wait shall we[:)]

dinsdale -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 10:24:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer dinsdale, I have said it before, I will obviously need to say it again. Sometimes my opinion is sourced by a multitude of sources that DO have the game, HAVE played the game, and if I elect to support a view point of people I know to trust, then my not having had the game, is not relevant in all cases. What exactly has anyone else's experience go to do with being so delighted at expensive games with no manuals? That's what this thread was about after all, how exceptionally wonderful it is and how that huge, 4 post, thread at Wargamer was unnecessarily knocking matrix. Now if I started a thread on how great it was that gasoline prices were beneficial, I'd at least not do it until I bought some. quote: My idea of a "danger sign" is everyone insisting a game has to be in stunning richly detailed real time 3d to be any good, because it is required to attract joe blow gamer who is often to dim to be capable of enjoying an old style game that is "too boring". First off, I don't care if that just insulted joe average gamer. Second, that just fuels the myth joe average gamer is ever going to want to become joe average wargamer. It might make you better to feel superior about your recreational chioces, but that's all they are: choices. As it's easier to buy, see and get information on mainstream games than wargames, I'd say the hobby was in serious trouble. That's not the same as thinking someone is an imbecile for liking Doom3, or call him "Joe" quote: All real time 3d has given us, is a great wealth of copy cat crud in most cases. I read the reviews eh, most real time 3d games being produced or that have been produced, feature stunning graphics and lame game play. No, 3D has pushed the envelope of PC games and made them sell comparative numbers as consoles. There are plenty games I don't like which are 3D, but I wouldn't call them crud. quote: Highway to the Reich, no real time 3d. errr it's a real time game. quote: Strategic Command, no real time 3d. Uncommon Valour, no real time 3d. War in the Pacific, no real time 3d. Battles in Normandy, no real time 3d. Steel Panthers, no real time 3d. 3D is generally not an important feature for grand strategy, or operational strategy. You may as well say that they don't have hip-hop soundtracks, therefore the lack of hip-hop soundtracks makes them good. quote: I can't think of a single game using real time and 3d, that anyone has been willing to state was a "great wargame". Combat Mission uses 3d, but they gave it WEGO system, and I think that makes a substantial difference. Highway to the Reich uses real time, but isn't 3d, and that makes a difference. Of course, I can use exclusionary and inclusionary criteria too. Not really worth it though. quote: The only danger I see for computer wargaming, is game makers waste to much time and effort pandering to people that never wanted to be wargamers in the first place, and not enough energy delivering a great wargame in the first place. The danger I see is that only mega-hits with watered down gameplay such as Total War are in stores. Wargames now reside in the download or mail-order abyss. Maybe you don't mind as you don't seem to buy many games anyway, but I would like as many new wargames as there are FPS, and I'd like to be able to pick them up at a store if need be, with a manual. quote: There is a reason why people still pay top dollar for ASL on eBay when they can't buy if from MMP fast enough. It's because it is a real wargame, and has remained as such regardless of the trend in compuer wargames to imply you need to dummy down a product to make it sell. Right, and ASL boardgames are going to outsell say Monopoly or the latest party game is it? quote: It will never be "cool" to be a historian, as much as it is "cool" to be a quarterback. Thus, I don't expect in 10 years or 20 years, to see a massive influx of wargamers, regardless of how "cute" a wargame designer makes his product. err I don't see why sports is somehow in competition with wargames. I've played competative sports since the age of 5, doesn't make me not understand wargames. Looks to me like you're inventing exclusion to promote some specialness. There is no redeeming factor which makes BiN any more worthwhile than say RollerCoaster Tycoon or Deerhunter. It's just a personal choice. It doesn't make anyone superior, of give them any greater taste, it's just an entertainment choice. quote: What our hobby needs is just something "fresh". How can it get fresh when any change is greeted with derision or suspicion?

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