RE: 17th army, what the... (Full Version)

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ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/23/2004 11:17:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

It's just numbers. I take my goals in 30 days or take them in 190 days, I still achieved the same result. I'm sitting 200 days out in both cases, goals reached, and stockpiles gone, Allies still another 200 days from being able to do anything major. In a general sense, I'd just like to see things set up to where players were more inclined by game rules, to take the 190 days than the 30 days than they are now....


Just because you don't plan for 1943 and only look 30 days in advance does not mean that the game engine is not keeping track of how much supply and fuel you have used up in your rampaging.

You will find that when the time comes, you will be short of everything. That is not a perception, that is the simple fact.

Using 20 ships and a Division of troops to take an empty base will waste a tanker or so worth of fuel and a transport or so worth of supplies. Multiply that by 50 bases ... thats 3.5 million tons supply and almost 1 million tons of fuel.

You can't magically get it back once you waste it. There is no magical supply store you can run to.



You're assuming I'm using full Divisions to take empty bases? I'm mostly using SLNF's and NLF and NavGd units to take all those empty or lightly defended NG and DEI bases, and mostly the same three or four used over and over again using the "Load Only Troops" option to pick them up and move them to the next empty base. I took Kendari with just two NAv Gd units and a base force. In my Japan on Steriod game I used two PI full Divisions to take Java (they are currently siting in Batvia doing nothing) and the others I sent to Lae in New Guinea to setup for a run on PM. The Imperial Gds took Palembang and are still stiting there. The other Malay division are sitting in Rangoon waiting for assignement to Burma Area for the old China Rd cut campaign.... SE Fleet units, 2 SNLF's each took Lunga and Tulagi. Using a single NLF unit to take all the empty bases, one by one, without even any supply on board. That NLF will be about gone when done, but who cares, it's one lousy 18 assualt value NLF unit and will have taken 8 or 9 bases all by itself once done!

Yea, I've got about a half dozen worn out, totally depleated SLNFs, and NLFS and two pretty tired Nav Gd units. But my big divisions are barely scarred becasue I didn't really use them for much other than the truely big stuff (Java, Sumatra, and eventually Port Morseby). Its Mar 16th and they are all now just sitting on their asses waiting for 1943 to arrive because they have nothing else to do!



Nikademus -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/23/2004 11:33:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Because the game LETS THEM, without penalty, that's why!


Wrong again.

The game *charges* them supply, fuel, wear and tear on ships, and lost experience for troop replacements and poorly skilled pilots that cause them to loose aircraft non-stop.

Nothing is free.


and in my case, last time i decided to conquor the world.....it cost me a delay in beginning the 2nd operational phase of the SRA conquest (Java/Borneo/Celebres)

But i conquored Bataan early. Malaya fell right on schedule. (imagine that...)



dr. smith -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/23/2004 11:36:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
I point you to the threads entitled "When did your Singapore fall" "When did your Bataan fall", etc.... for the proof that things seem highly accelerated. They are proceeding rapidly, as Frag states, because people are using DOUBLE or more the forces historically used. Why are they using them? Because the game LETS THEM, without penalty, that's why!


The problem with all those threads is they list a single objective. The only relevent topic would be to list the date of "When did your Bataan, Singapore, Mandalay, Java, AND Rabaul fall?"

Then ZOOMIE says its ALL going too fast because people are shifting forces without penalty. When Mogami lists all the forces which changed command you call it "revisionist" while supplying no "facts" of your own. The IJA took so LONG to capture Bataan since they thought the fight was over when Manilla fell. (ref. Toland) POOF!!! 48th Division gone for Java Invasion - that was "magically" QUICKLY changed and amended to occur a month earlier and flawlessly executed.

The decrepit 65 Brigade was subbed for the 48th, and quickly was chewed up on the 1st Bataan defense line. The normal player keeps the 48th and probably wins the Philippines quicker than history, since they can see that stack on Bataan.

History shows us the IJA quickly shifted forces between Army commands, yet you say they should not. The only "political" infighting occurred between the IJN and IJA whenever the Navy wanted Army troops to expand the perimeter, i.e. Guadalcanal.

Feel sorry for Mogami and Frag ("I FEEL for ya, Man!") trying to reason with you, a fruitless task (maybe needs LUSKAN to interject - being a banana man [:D] )



mogami -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/23/2004 11:43:29 PM)

Hi, Is that PBEM? Or are you asking us to limit you some how verus the AI? Make it so you can't do things you know are silly. This is hard to do because in games versu human the human will more often then not show you why a mistake is a mistake. The AI does not recognize many of your actions if it does not have a direct impact.

As for Singapore fall dates.

I have 8 PBEM going
Singapore has only fallen in one and at around the historic date.
In none of the games are the Japanese advancing in China (I captured Changsha in one)
For the most part The Chinese are starting the offensives in the games where anything is occuring in China

Of course I am Japan in 7 of the games. But in the game where I am allies I am quite happy with my position 3 weeks into war. The Japanese landed at Mersing and now 3 weeks later have advanced a total of 60 miles. The forces in Malaya were compelled to retreat before I would have liked and the Japanese landed paratroops behind my forces so I have been required to fight in several directions at once in order to move. I had to hold the rear long enough for the front to open the road. Then Japanese forces cutting accross from Kuntan arrived. A few more days will tell whether my retreat will succeed or not but all in all I am not displeased with how it has went. Certainly Japan will be outside Singapore more then a month ahead of history but the Japanese player paid a cost for this. It was his choice.


I think we should before posting a problem in general define if it is something where the AI needs improvement or something that effects every game.



Oznoyng -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 12:44:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Of course I am Japan in 7 of the games. But in the game where I am allies I am quite happy with my position 3 weeks into war. The Japanese landed at Mersing and now 3 weeks later have advanced a total of 60 miles. The forces in Malaya were compelled to retreat before I would have liked and the Japanese landed paratroops behind my forces so I have been required to fight in several directions at once in order to move. I had to hold the rear long enough for the front to open the road. Then Japanese forces cutting accross from Kuntan arrived. A few more days will tell whether my retreat will succeed or not but all in all I am not displeased with how it has went. Certainly Japan will be outside Singapore more then a month ahead of history but the Japanese player paid a cost for this. It was his choice.

Is this our game?



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 1:12:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Is that PBEM? Or are you asking us to limit you some how verus the AI? Make it so you can't do things you know are silly. This is hard to do because in games versu human the human will more often then not show you why a mistake is a mistake. The AI does not recognize many of your actions if it does not have a direct impact.

As for Singapore fall dates.

I have 8 PBEM going
Singapore has only fallen in one and at around the historic date.
In none of the games are the Japanese advancing in China (I captured Changsha in one)
For the most part The Chinese are starting the offensives in the games where anything is occuring in China

Of course I am Japan in 7 of the games. But in the game where I am allies I am quite happy with my position 3 weeks into war. The Japanese landed at Mersing and now 3 weeks later have advanced a total of 60 miles. The forces in Malaya were compelled to retreat before I would have liked and the Japanese landed paratroops behind my forces so I have been required to fight in several directions at once in order to move. I had to hold the rear long enough for the front to open the road. Then Japanese forces cutting accross from Kuntan arrived. A few more days will tell whether my retreat will succeed or not but all in all I am not displeased with how it has went. Certainly Japan will be outside Singapore more then a month ahead of history but the Japanese player paid a cost for this. It was his choice.


I think we should before posting a problem in general define if it is something where the AI needs improvement or something that effects every game.


I follow the War room and the AARs pretty close. I have two local hotseat games going, against a pretty good Allied opponenent who promised to play the Allies basically historically ( no quick strikes on the Solomons in Jan '42, etc.. and defend the SRA as well as possible with existing forces ) both I'm playing Japan. One is a very aggressive mode using no air cover and no Prep at all. One is very deliberate, methodical and "proper" in every regard. I intend to stop at the Wake, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Port Morseby, JAva, Sumatra, Burma line and dig in in both.

That methodical one I'm in mid Feb '42. Bataan just fell. Sinapore fell on Feb 9. Japs just took Tarakan and Kendari after two weeks of air assault from Davao. Japs have Rabaul and just took Shortlands but are waiting for more prep at Rabaul before moving from there. I am prepping the Java units I plan on using down there and they are roughly in the 20's in Prep points. I don't expect to be done until late May/early June.

The first one is sitting on Mar 16th, 1942 and the entire SRA is taken, Singapore fell on Jan, 12, Bataan on Jan 27. Batavia, last base on Java fell on Mar 11. Timor fell on the last turn. Three divisions sitting in Buna awaiting arrival of the KB and transports and bombarbardment vessles. Plan on taking Port Morseby without much of fight within the next week. All of the Solomons are mine, Lunga is already a size 3 airfield and just upgraded to H8K and can now see all the way to Noemea. Have massed on Mandalay and expect to cut the Burma Rd inside of two weeks. Apr 1 and the conquest phase will be 100% DONE in that game, even in Burma.

I intend to sit there then until the conservative game catches up so I can compare the state of Japan in the two. Have seen neither hide nor hair from the Allied Carriers in either yet, but have to admit, my KB air units are badly beat down from overuse, and that may be the big difference in the two scenarios. I've barely even used the KB in the second scenario. Don't know when I will meet the five US carriers but when I do, there should be a big difference between the two results (avg exp in KB air in the first is 20 points below avg exp in KB in the second). But I don't think I will see much difference in the land based air status between the two. He's not putting up much of a fight in the air in either one, keeping the AVG in the CBI. First scenario the pre-war stocks are completely gone! And Japan is void of supply (has been no factory "repair" for two weeks!). Its going to be stretch finishing up my Port Morseby and Burma campaign. But oil and resources are flowing at 100% capacity from the SRA. No oil is flowing at all yet in the second one. But stocks and supply are pretty good. I actually have more factories producing stuff in mid Feb in #2 than in mid Mar in #1. And from what I can tell, my major ground units (Mixed Brigades and full divisions) appear to be no worse for wear in #1 vs #2 and my land based air is particularly beat up in #1 either....just the over used and "flogged" KB....

We're playing Lemur #26 which may explain the slow Allied response.....Lemur strips the Allies of almost EVERYTHING at the start and knock even the biggest bases down to 0(x) or 1(x) level and no base unit has more than 12-14 aviation support units. No 2nd Marines, no NZ infantry, no nothing, a few aircraft that have no base support is all....


We'll see. I have no idea what the ramifications are for late 1942/1943 yet. Maybe the difference is nothing more than the KB air units (which could indeed be a MAJOR impact point). But if they aren't SUBSTANTIAL in #1 I'd say we have a problem somewhere.



Mr.Frag -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 1:27:38 AM)

I hope you are not playing Lemur's against the AI. [:D]

He has basically destroyed the AI for the Allies. Perfectly fine in a player vs player game ... but pointless against the AI.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 1:33:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I hope you are not playing Lemur's against the AI. [:D]

He has basically destroyed the AI for the Allies. Perfectly fine in a player vs player game ... but pointless against the AI.


Hotseat with another human (my 21 year old son....a new convert, BTW...).

Anyone else play hotseat?



Ron Saueracker -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 3:13:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I hope you are not playing Lemur's against the AI. [:D]

He has basically destroyed the AI for the Allies. Perfectly fine in a player vs player game ... but pointless against the AI.


How so?



Mr.Frag -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 3:34:49 AM)

quote:

How so?


He's wimped the Allies. Couple that with the wimping we did because of my holding Burma and they are now super wimped and you'll just walk over them. [:D]

Mog was working on the exact opposite, toughening up the Allies so they would be a good player for Japan (human)

Nothing wrong with creating scenarios, but you have to slant them towards the side they are aimed at being played against.



Tophat -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 4:47:18 AM)

weather effects.....if we had more weather effects on LCU's alot of the speed people are saying is an issue would disappear!
In Burma the monsoons should be a stopper for both sides.............and lord "MUD" should then rule! i'm telling you put in some weather effects and alot of this gamey argument will go out the window.But nomatter how much pp you pump into the effort weather effects are going to slow you down.......and thats as it should be.



mogami -> RE: 17th army, what the... (9/24/2004 4:57:20 AM)

Hi, Lemurs scenarios show he put a lot of time, thought and effort into them. I just do not agree with his conclusions. I know the 2nd Mar Div existed on 7 Dec 1941 and was in pretty much the same condition the 1st Mar Div was. Just because a unit or ship was not sent to the Pacific does not mean it didn't exist.
Lemur invites the more radical Japanese plans. Unit arrival in the Pacific reflected the demand as well as the availabilty of material. Had the Japanese moved into the Solomons sooner and in greater force the Allied shipments of men and aircraft and movement of ships would have been changed. Removing them from the OOB was not a good answer in my opinion because we all know the Japanese players move faster and in more force in all directions.
That is why in my scenario I include units that were located in Louisana but were used in Pacific. I removed the West Coast units that were used in ETO and replace them with understrength Pacific units.

It seems rather silly to me that the Japanese have no aviation support shortage while the Allied player does at major bases.
I think the Allied OOB is short enough in scenario 26 to say it is slanted towards Japan and that balance was not a consideration. It is true that scenario 15 gives units that were not employed in Pacific. And these units will at some point enter into play. But they cannot be used early and they allow the Allied player flexabilty that scenario 26 does not. It is as if in scenario 26 the USA delays war mobliazation till Dec 8 1941 and had not started it in 1940. Very few major formations employed by the USA in WW2 were formed after Dec 7 1941. (the 3rd,4th,5th,6th Mar Div being among these few)



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