RE: Does anyone else find this as odd

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ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 5:59:20 AM)
The same youngsters during the dot-com boom had a lot of the same attitude. The "normal rules of business" just didn't apply to them, period. No one could convince them that at some time, somewhere, some how, you had to start getting some actual TANGIBLE return on capital investment and build REAL value. The "normal" rules of business eventually came back to bite almost all of them in the a$$. The bills came due and there was no cash in the till. Different aspect of business here, but still a "NORMAL" part of standard business operating procedure here. I don't give a rat about the patch or what KIND of business this is, the standard rules of good business practice APPLY. It applies as well to Matrix as it would to a Cotton brokerage firm to a steel manufacturer to a Burger King.

Belce -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 6:00:27 AM)
Matrix is the publisher, 2by3 made the game and supports it. Think of a book author and the publishing house for another example. Most big game publishers/developers do not indicate a patch schedule, they may ask you to be notified when one occurs when you register the game. Some big game publishers will put out a game that is unplayable and hope that people will maintain interest to wait for the patch. With EA sport titles, they are basically upgrades/patches to last years version of that title. Patching in the olden days You needed a subsrciption to something like genie and pay for the online time by the minute to download the patch via a 9600 baud modem.... but then no one ever needed more than 640k. The backlash due to a late patch is actually very minor when you compare it to other genres, specifically the mmorpg, see city of heroes, dark age of camelot, AO, and EQ for examples.

Belce -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 6:08:06 AM)
Actually the normal rules of business do apply and I agree. You just don't understand them correctly. You think they mean they should turn about themselves to appease you or lie to you. I like they tell the truth and are engaged in things they believe will help support their efforts overall, in the long run. Its not like they said they are on a holiday, kicking their heels up, they are doing work, preplanned and intended to support this game/genre. If we were all here with a program that couldn't run, I would say you have a point, but that isn't and you don't.

rtrapasso -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 6:16:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 quote: ORIGINAL: khelvan quote: ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980 Not sure what your basis of fact here is. EA-Sports, Microsoft, Legend Entertainiment, etc have put out very complex titles that don't cost as much as WitP does. They all have marketing staffs and are organized along the lines of a standard software firm. Just because a firm is organized more along traditional business lines, does not in any way mean it will automatically charge more for its products. In fact, it is just as likely they could charge LESS as their resources are better fitted to the operational requirements of the enterprise. I work for a firm of roughly 50 people. We have no "QC department", no dedicated Customer Support group, no Finance Department, no Purchasing Department or anything else. What we DO have is a marketing chairman, a single salesman, two marketing assistants, and about a half dozen senior project managers and few junior/assistant managers, one R&D guy (me) along with about 35 developers/engineers (techies of various levels and skill sets). The marketing guys and one project manager are the guys that go to the shows along with whatever techie is on the least critical path. Occassionally one of the three partners MIGHT go to one. When I first started we had 18 people. Three partners, two project managers, and 13 developers. We still went to trade shows, but even then, never took more than one techie. Comparing the computer game industry to mainstream software development is a faulty analogy. The computer game industry is at its heart much more akin to the entertainment industry, such as motion pictures or to a lesser extent the music industry. Software development is a tool for the game industry, not the end result. As someone in the software development business you don't have the same frame of reference so your evaluation of Matrix/2by3 will be way off. EA, Microsoft, Legend, these are to computer gaming as 20th Century Fox is to motion pictures. Big budgets, big projects, mass market appeal. Matrix/2by3 are like the publisher and studio for small documentary films. To compare them is fallacious at best. Raising the awareness level for Matrix products is complex, due to the nature of the buyer. Simply hiring a pretty woman to sit in the booth and attract pimply-faced teenagers may work for a developer of mainstream RTS or FPS games, but Matrix's market is too savvy for that. I bought over $100 worth of software at GenCon from Matrix because I was turned on by small, ugly looking unit graphics on a big screen with a knowledgeable Matrix employee there to stoke the grognard fire, not by seeing huge mammary glands. Had I not seen Matrix's booth at GenCon, I may very well have never had the fortune to find out about WitP. I don't mean this as condescending, but if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you study the business model of the company you are talking about, within the context of the industry, before making critical comments. Matrix and 2by3 seem to be doing remarkable jobs in a very tough industry reaching a niche market where it is difficult for companies to survive. I have worked in both mainstream software development and the computer game industries, and I have an MBA, so feel free to accept what I say, not accept it, or better yet do some more research before making such blanket statements. Cheers, -khel Again, I don't give a DAMN if Matrix is just THREE people. YOu don't send ALL THREE to trade show with distributable product ready to go needing only installation bundling done.... AGain, HOW MANY does it REALLY take at a trade show to man the booth and maybe take in a seminar or two???? The whole damned critical mass of the company??? Still not buying.... Shoot, in some places I know of, they shut down entire factories for 1 week - 2 weeks at a go, and NO ONE is there, and they employ 100s to 1000s of folk. They figure it is more efficient to have everyone off at once then to try to schedule around everyone's vacation. They have a heck of a lot more resources than Matrix/2 x 3. I will agree that they are not software companies, but large scale manufacturers.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 6:20:01 AM)
No I understand business extremely well. Been in the business for the better part of 3 decades and have done quite well in it. Trade shows are important, but not so important you send every last critical employee to every one and essentially shut down the business for the time they are gone. The patch is READY for release, but they can't release it because ALL the people who know HOW to get it released are off galivanting around a trade show in Germany. Theres a key aspect in standard business practice that has to do with priority balance that seems askew here. Now if you think that is all "normal" businiess practice, I know who hasn't a clue about SOP in business, and it IS NOT me.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 6:22:33 AM)
Another clueless wonder. Most production factories have a refit/retool period every year. I am a part owner in two textile mills. We shut BOTH down for 10 days every year for maintenance. If they employees are going to take a week;s vacation, that's when they do it enmasse. But that, of course, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with attending trade shows.

Graycompany -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 6:39:15 AM)
well, perhaps it was a reward for the great job an all the hard work done on the game, an the first couple patches, that "everyone" was taken to germany for a trade show. I have been buying games for 3 decades, boardgames (SPI, Avalon Hill, ), plus computer games last 10. The fact that they even make patches that have suggested changes in them tells me all I need to know about this company. They will last, the others, some of who I mentioned, failed. Zoomie, Please tell us what company you work for as a R&D guy, who has all this time to post during the day, im sure we all want to know. [8D] P.S. Joel Billings is a wargame god

pompack -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:04:45 AM)
NEAT avatar

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:05:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Graycompany well, perhaps it was a reward for the great job an all the hard work done on the game, an the first couple patches, that "everyone" was taken to germany for a trade show. I have been buying games for 3 decades, boardgames (SPI, Avalon Hill, ), plus computer games last 10. The fact that they even make patches that have suggested changes in them tells me all I need to know about this company. They will last, the others, some of who I mentioned, failed. Zoomie, Please tell us what company you work for as a R&D guy, who has all this time to post during the day, im sure we all want to know. [8D] P.S. Joel Billings is a wargame god Now I can buy at least some of that. But even "rewards" have to be passed out with come common sense. And about the only thing that I take from your patch frequency comment, is the standard in this sector of the software industry is about as low as a standard can get. Makes "excelling" pretty easy. And it's about 11:00PM where I am. Even I don't work very often that late.

Belce -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:17:37 AM)
You seem to think that your SOP for business applies to businesses other than your own, that what is good for the goose is good for the dog or cat? Have you considered looking at different business models for different products and for different markets than customers of textile mills? I don't think so. Perhaps the people of 2by3 games are not allowed to say that their staff is required to go to these trade shows to support titles that matrix publishes. It is not unreasonable for a publisher to require the author(s) to show up at certain events to help promote the product they publish. I also don't think you get the idea of what a Gary Grisgby game means in the war gaming community. For us, its a work of art. Its archaic interface, its lack of good multiplayer play, its attention to detail that bores the newbie are all golden for us. We like to open the box, put it on and have for a first impression, "this is impossible" before we dive in. Does your business model apply to this situation? You make widgets, if you didn't make them, someone else would. Gary makes this and no one else does. One of the sad things about this, is never more will they announce a patch before ready and provide us the details of that patch like they did here. I won't say thanks Zoomie, you and others have taken that from us.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:25:40 AM)
Sound business practices are Universal Axioms.

fbastos -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:31:54 AM)
quote: I am a part owner in two textile mills. You own two mills plus a software company and still find time to post 1,200 messages in about 2 months, including a general flame (that you won't win) on 3 guys going to Germany for whatever reason? With the due respect, you don't sound like the average capitalist... F.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:49:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fbastos quote: I am a part owner in two textile mills. You own two mills plus a software company and still find time to post 1,200 messages in about 2 months, including a general flame (that you won't win) on 3 guys going to Germany for whatever reason? With the due respect, you don't sound like the average capitalist... F. Are you people really this "limited"??? I have a roughly a 7% stake in two polyester fillament spinning mills in South Carolina. I have about 30,000 shares in form of options in a software firm I happen to currently work for. I don't "own" anything. I have "investment stakes" in a LOT of things. If you cannot comprehend the difference, then I have no time for your idiocy.

Tanaka -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:53:53 AM)
You know at first I was kind of upset at the situation and wanted to complain. Yes it sucks that the patch is ready and nothing can be done about it and we have to wait still even more for a patch that is already finished...but then I thought about how many countless hours these guys put in for us and listen to us. I have never been involved with a game, company, or community like I have with Matrix. It really does feel like a family. For those of us who have been around since the early days of UV you really know what I mean. These guys listen to almost everything we freaking say. It is unbelievable. I dont think I have ever had a question unanswered in some way. So many suggestions actually put into the game or considered. They are always on the forums. There is just involvement galore in every aspect of this game from everyone here. There is nothing else like this out there period. So I had NO problem, NADA giving these guys a little break and waiting a week. They have given so so much back to me and many others. Yes it is a company and they do have to make money but not once have I ever felt cheated or ignored. WITP is a game I will play for years and years and nothing else will come close. There will probably never be another game like it. These guys are here just as much to make a damn good game. They want it to be everything that we do and you cant find that anywhere else.

canuck64 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 7:57:01 AM)
Another fence sitter here, but one with a sleeve to play Devil's Advocate.... Zoomie, you make some solid and repeated points about doing business. But since business is about people management, I think there needs to be some consideration about risk/reward here...taken in its own right. Matrix, through Joel, decide to take the risk to patch games to the extent they do. They further take the risk of INFORMING us of delays and so forth. Having been in the computer industry for 15 years, I can promise you that that kind of information is NOT the norm. To reward their honesty, to make noble their efforts, required of you to disagree with their practice, and their personnel management. Valid point. However, you're rewarding their honesty with somewhat of a dubious stick in my view. Should you continue to sound your horn, should more and more people decide that because you have enough spine not to change your opinion when the fanboys wade in, does not, in my view, make the point. The point is that they do not OWE us a patch, are far less in their OWING of an explanation. I have worked at Disney IT, Office Depot IT, and some other big corps. Let me tell you that the decision to explain is found few and far between. If you're telling me you run companies with greater expanse than those, and successfully at that, then I suppose you deserve your day of say. Otherwise, you're running the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden egg. You're getting baited (happens to me so I'm not going to castrate ya) by some foolish people that want to tell you you're wrong. I for one think your point is right, but posting it, standing by it through thick and thin, shows me that there's some near-sightedness there-next thing you know, they'll stop explaining as a result of this.... So really, people management means being slow with the stick, and quick with the praise. Sad but true. It's not ww2 America anymore. Thank god for that in some ways... A good analogy here is owning a dog. You need to praise the snot out of them when they do right. At the precise MOMENT they do something wrong, you then can punish them, lightly-because to do otherwise confuses them. It's been my observation that there are few people in this world much brighter-so they'll get the wrong idea from punishment in a hurry...and simply stop explaining. Yell at them for stopping explaining, then they'll stop patching. And so it goes. Without being a cynic, and without reference to your tautologies about business, how bout you give some thought to the relevance of your arguments to the people making the patch-and not the rest of us drooling, door-scratching, mind-numbingly-without-lives-types who are waiting in earnest for the patch? Just my .02

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:03:35 AM)
Nice sentiment. It is shared. Great guys, great product, overall good commitment to support. No argument. But it;s all about how good CAN you be. For Matrix, my main comment is THINK ABOUT IT. What message are you "really" sending? Getting your principals to a kushy, exotic, trade show halfway across the world, or getting your scut work done. You CAN do BOTH. But not this way. It's EASY to appease fanatics. If that's your standard then you are doomed in the long term. Impress your skeptics and you've done something. If you haven't noticed, I am a skeptic. Doesn't make me a Darth Vader, just a jaded skeptic that's "been there"n "done that" many times over.

fbastos -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:03:39 AM)
quote: Are you people really this "limited"??? I have a roughly a 7% stake in two polyester fillament spinning mills in South Carolina. I have about 30,000 shares in form of options in a software firm I happen to currently work for. I don't "own" anything. I have "investment stakes" in a LOT of things. If you cannot comprehend the difference, then I have no time for your idiocy. Lol, you are a worker like the rest of us... [:D]... you can't really advise how Gary Grisby and Matrix Games do business, can you? "Universal Axioms" and all that? For a moment you got me thinking if Matrix made a mistake on allowing them guys to go to their show. But now I agree with you on just one point: yeah, I'm kind limited. I try to compensate that by being educated. F.

Belce -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:07:24 AM)
Actually, I think we all think you are the "limited" one here. You are the one with the business model to apply to our hobby. The only reason why a school would tell you that business practices are universial is to give you confidence going into an interview. There is not a universial method to create product and deliver it to its market successfully.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:13:27 AM)
Nice post! Good points all. You know, excellence is a tough thing. It means a lot of people doing a lot of numbing work and NOT getting to go to nice places. They don't "owe" us squat. I appreciate their commitment to fix their buggy stuff because so many of these gaming hacks don't. My main point is we have a very endangered genre here. Matrix is the last great bullwark in that genre. Matrix needs to be as solid on ALL fronts as they can be. Mom and pop business approaches just don't really cut it when our genre is at threat. These guys need to think about EVERYTHING they do and every subliminal message they send out via their actions solicit. Most of the people here may think fanatical homerism is the right approach to ensure Matrix and their partners stand the test of time. I choose to be the ultimate skeptic and critic. I focus on the problems becuase we damned sure as hell don't need any more fanatical Matix homers here. We have more than enough of those. Matrix....I'm one of those watching your back side because most here just refuse to.

canuck64 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:20:30 AM)
Took me what feels like a long time on this earth's crust to get to the point of working with what feels right....not getting stuck too long on what's wrong... Optimism in endeavour is the thing that strikes most readers about anything written by Einstein, Hawking, etc...so I'm not way out in left field here (well I am, but what the hell...) Basically, at the end of the day, I'm happy we got an update about a patch. I'm delighted that there's a niche market with at least one company willing to satisfy my need to move beans, bullets and beer around some hexes. One final note about business in america. I grant you I'm a guest here from a foreign land, but I've seen in recent times the absurdity of doing business here (Enron, Tyco, etc etc etc), so I'm thinking that whatever business tautologies are out there, it's time they got reworked. Tried and true don't cut it-because the people who do the work, not manage people-in other words the brains of the outfit, get screwed continually. Meanwhile some dopey sh*t with a belly and no hair retires with 500 million and screws the investors. Happens constantly. So let's put the delay in patch and personnel management in its proper focus....? Wow. My soapbox is boring even me....hahaha. [>:]

herbieh -> All wrong (10/26/2004 8:23:34 AM)
Ya all wrong They went to germany for the beer And the big girls dressed in leather And the suakerat And to escape these forums And for the beer. Who'd want to come back, release the patch, then in 2 minutes it will be give us 1.4 No wonder the beer looks so attractive.[:D]

canuck64 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:24:16 AM)
You know, this forum (and most of the matrix games forums) is about the most reasonable, at least quasi-intelligent forum I've been party to over the years. Hats off to you all, I'm tickled that the game draws in people who can spell, chew gum, express contentious opinions and get dirty looks from the g/f or wife, all the while ALT-TAB ing back and forth to the Pacific.... I think Matrix should hire us all, and be done with it. [:D]

canuck64 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:26:34 AM)
To just add here, if Matrix DID hire us.... Of course, I'd need a raise, post-haste. Especially with all this torment over a patch, while my sad butt is stuck here, and the boys are off to germany with the Fraus and Bier.... They should at least send us courtesy steins with girls in lederhosen (or partially)

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:28:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fbastos quote: Are you people really this "limited"??? I have a roughly a 7% stake in two polyester fillament spinning mills in South Carolina. I have about 30,000 shares in form of options in a software firm I happen to currently work for. I don't "own" anything. I have "investment stakes" in a LOT of things. If you cannot comprehend the difference, then I have no time for your idiocy. Lol, you are a worker like the rest of us... [:D]... you can't really advise how Gary Grisby and Matrix Games do business, can you? "Universal Axioms" and all that? For a moment you got me thinking if Matrix made a mistake on allowing them guys to go to their show. But now I agree with you on just one point: yeah, I'm kind limited. I try to compensate that by being educated. F. Yea, I work. I like to work. I am somwhat successful. My married well, too, which helps. I like business. I have owned a lot of small businesses over the years from computer stores, to laundrymats, to sportings good franchises, to commodity brokerage firms. I sit on the Boards of Directors of two local Savings and Loans and one credit union. My wife is on the board of a major health insurer. I know business large and small. I like software. Love computers. And I adore wargaming. Six year veteran of the Cold War flying RC-135s. Eight Air Medals to show for it. Damn near shot down in the Gulf of Sidra in 1981. Lots of life experience to draw on. I know what I pontificate about. Military or otherwise. Know a lot about what works and what doesn't. The subtle signals one sends by their actions, speak volumes. Matrix needs to keep that in mind in the future....

Tanaka -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:29:26 AM)
uggg and sigh... im not saying anyone is right or wrong here... im not trying to bait anyone... and im no fanatic.... ...just a very satisfied customer please quit reading too much into posts. im just stating how i feel about me. no one else.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:39:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: canuck64 Took me what feels like a long time on this earth's crust to get to the point of working with what feels right....not getting stuck too long on what's wrong... Optimism in endeavour is the thing that strikes most readers about anything written by Einstein, Hawking, etc...so I'm not way out in left field here (well I am, but what the hell...) Basically, at the end of the day, I'm happy we got an update about a patch. I'm delighted that there's a niche market with at least one company willing to satisfy my need to move beans, bullets and beer around some hexes. One final note about business in america. I grant you I'm a guest here from a foreign land, but I've seen in recent times the absurdity of doing business here (Enron, Tyco, etc etc etc), so I'm thinking that whatever business tautologies are out there, it's time they got reworked. Tried and true don't cut it-because the people who do the work, not manage people-in other words the brains of the outfit, get screwed continually. Meanwhile some dopey sh*t with a belly and no hair retires with 500 million and screws the investors. Happens constantly. So let's put the delay in patch and personnel management in its proper focus....? Wow. My soapbox is boring even me....hahaha. [>:] Obviously a victim of headline myopia. Yea Ken is a crook. MOST, in fact, almost ALL, DON'T get screwed. Bottom line, is the average American worker is damned happy with his/her lot. And he doesn't get to go to German trade shows. Matix needs to balance the picture here. EVERYBODY, doesn't have to go to EVERY trade show. And the user community should damned well be OUTRAGED if they conintue to do so. Maybe they all should go to SOME some show, but what's wrong with rotating it? I NEVER will buy this trade show CRAP. Sorry, it just lacks any connection with ANYTHING remotely logical.

Belce -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:44:49 AM)
I think I understand better Zoomie, you love this hobby and want to see more like this and support the game. You think the lack of putting out a patch asap is problem because its unproffessional and will affect new adherents more so than us, "its a Gary" crowd. I really think that this situation comes down to Matrix telling GG that we will publish your PacWar deluxe with other games like WaW in exchange for you helping us sell them aboard where you might not be so well known as here, hence the tradeshow commitment. So what we have here is conflict between providing the support to put out a patch vs the contractual requirements of Matrix to support published and pending published product at tradeshows in this case. Matrix is applying your business practice model to its current and future products here. I think that when the patch was finished they thought they could get it out with developers out of town, but then found out it wasn't possible. They would not have put forward details and such about it otherwise. Much easier overall if they can post, the patch is up, here is the changes like every other software company and till ready say it isn't. They made an error indicating the patch was ready and that it had to wait for the developers to package first.

Tanaka -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:47:46 AM)
quote: Matix needs to balance the picture here. EVERYBODY, doesn't have to go to EVERY trade show. And the user community should damned well be OUTRAGED if they conintue to do so. Maybe they all should go to SOME some show, but what's wrong with rotating it? I NEVER will buy this trade show CRAP. Sorry, it just lacks any connection with ANYTHING remotely logical. Here I will agree with you. If this happened frequently I would not be happy. But because they have always given such great support Im willing to be patient this time around. Hopefully this wont happen again and I would be shocked if it did.

ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 8:54:19 AM)
I just want to see the guys excercise some sound judgement and balance in wha they chose to do. It just doesn't make a great deal of sound business sense to reveal that you have a patch to arguably their most significant body of work, to date, ready to go, but because ALL the people who know anything at all about how to get that patch ready for delivery are off galivanting in Europe, it is delayed until they get back??????? To "understand" that is nothing more than blind homerism. Sorry, just too hardened by the hard knocks of nasty business tactics to ever buy that polyanish nonsense. I guess my bottom line to Matrix, is to simply grow up.

Belce -> RE: Does anyone else find this as odd (10/26/2004 9:01:45 AM)
Zoomie, People here really don't care what you have done, do and will do in real life. This is an internet message forum and nothing more and its about a game. Its all about what you put in your posts and nothing more. If it can't stand then claiming to be whatever of whatever won't fix it. And to be honest you have some valid points to raise outside of "I am a goomba in the real world."

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