RE: Future of games like WITP (Full Version)

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Feinder -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 9:40:54 PM)

When Knavey and I played the table top games, if the weight of box was "substantial", you knew it was gonna be a winner. They couldda just put a few rocks in the thing, and we would have bought it, but the addage was fairly true, the heavier the better.

I was probably the only 4th grader who know what the word "maneuverability" meant, or knew where Stavelot and the Hurtegen Forrest were.

And then when we started buying computer games, if there were several of the 5 1/2" disks (Ultima3!), or a big manual with lots of tables (PacWar!), you were in for a treat. And then the finally -did- put a stupid rock in the game, remember the "moonstone" enclosed with Ultima 5? [:D]

I told my wife the best part about having our son (who is 9 weeks old today!), is that I'll finally have an opponenet for my Squad Leader and AirForce games (in about 9 years). Well actually, the BIGGEST advantage to having a son, is that he gets to cut my lawn as soon as he can see over the bar, but gaming is a close 2nd (*just kidding*).

And I really, REALLY, really miss Panzer General. I'll tell you what Joel. I'll put World at War on my Christmas list, and you boys at Matrix think about putting Panzer General on yours (to get the rights to republish...?).

[;)]

-F-




paullus99 -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 9:46:25 PM)

I definitely agree about the potential appeal of GGWaW. I'm sure the similiarities to A&A was done purposely to draw attention to the game, but there is so much more there to get your arms around. The logistical model alone finally does justice to a lot of the handicaps faced by the real combatants (you can build the largest armies you are able, but without supplies or resources, you won't be able to do much with them).

Its not WiTP, but its not "beer & pretzels" either. Its a great medium between the two.




madmickey -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 9:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jmsimer

Well, I think we're really speculating with all these figures. I have to assume Matrix and 2x3 thought they would make money if they sold the game for $70, and who knows whether they estimated the volume correctly. I just hope they do manage to stay around, because there are so few companies making truly good wargames. For the business side of it, if they need some free advice from an MBA student who will work for free (to a point), well, I'm right here! [:D]

I am a Professional Engineer with a MBA (More Bad Advice) degree and I have spent 30 year analyzing economic project, I am retired now, most business project are money losers. Most people think that companies making money is an easy situation. I look at all the historical work that the crew put into this game and it is amazing. Sure some OOB may be wrong but look at the size of the game. Compare the lack of detail in something like Korsun Pocket to WITP. The 2x3 crew are motivated by a love of wargaming and I hope it works out well.




Franck -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 9:53:34 PM)

quote:

Well I tried to ensure the future, but my nephews got caught up in Magic, shootm ups, paint ball and sports. Then I had three daughters, which at least they play computer games, SIMS2 etc. I am teaching my 7 year old LOtR Risk so maybe there is hope. I was taken by surprise that the 30th anniversery of D&D just past, that made me feel old since I started playing that when it first game out.

Well, we may not need any other games since WITP may take up all of my time just playing the standard games. I don't know if I will even find the time to play Tankers mods. Its like I keep telling my wife, all those books and games are for when I retire and I have time to read and play them all.



For the first part: I am only 21 and I play World in Flames with some of my freinds ( who are 23 to 28 years old )

for the second part I am only 21 and I already tell my girlfreind that the 200 dollars I spend on book and games a month is for when I will retire :)




sveint -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 9:55:55 PM)

The average shelf life of a wargame is much longer than that of a standard PC game (which is a max of 3 months).

WITP will quite possibly continue to sell for years.




RevRick -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 9:59:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ltfightr

My favorite computer war games:

360
V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP

I must hold my breath right the V4V series runs on my p4 with xp....
I owed the series on floppy and lost most of them but downloaded it from the underdogs site and it runs ok the only problem I have is with my mouse it moves very slowly.


Too bad that won't work with the Atomic Games/Avalaon Hill version of D-Day:America Invades. I have never been able to get that to work on anything more advanced than 3.1...




Honda -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 11:24:20 PM)

I want Panzer General Super Gold Extra Old Style Non-embelished version come out immediatly!!![sm=00000023.gif]
Boy, could this game be fun if reworked. Just take the original and, and, make it bigger! And better! Yeah!




BlackVoid -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 11:25:46 PM)

The market needs more games like Panzer General. Easy to get into, some eyecandy, not so easy to master.
WITP is very complicated, it is not entry level. I love it, but many are put off by the complexity.
Interest and new customers can only be generated by games that are simple, fun look good, yet somewhat historical. The problem is that these days there is no middle ground. There are the hardcore games like Combat Mission, WITP, the Decisive Battles series. Then there are the games that are even more grognard and have NO graphics (HPS, John Tiller, etc).
On the other side there is Panzers, Afrika Korps - standard RTS with WW2 units.

In between there is NOTHING or very few games (Total War, Spartan). We need historical games that look better and are more accessible to the average guy.




Joel Billings -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 11:29:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

In between there is NOTHING or very few games (Total War, Spartan). We need historical games that look better and are more accessible to the average guy.


Check out the Gary Grigsby's World at War forum to see a game that will try to meet the need.




BlackVoid -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 11:31:06 PM)

Check out the screenshots of our project: http://www.48.hu/letoltes.html
Currently this is only for Hungary but we would like to make an international version for next year with more scenarios (currently we have 5, but all for the same theater - Hungarian Independence War of 1848-49 against Austria+Russia).

It is turn and hex based, supports internet multiplayer, animated 3D units, realistic fatigue, moral and supply rules.




BlackVoid -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 11:33:39 PM)

I will buy World at War [:)]




BossGnome -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/21/2004 11:59:25 PM)

heh, I'm 15. More young wargamers. Ps: I also love Total War.




Tanaka -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 12:01:45 AM)

ORIGINAL: dereck

quote:


I just wish Gary Grigsby would make about the American Civil War on the same scale as "War in the Pacific" -- I'd certainly jump at that game!



yesss!!!! drool..... [:D]

27 here...




pasternakski -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 12:16:53 AM)

If Matrix really wants to make some money, it should commission ports of some of the most popular - and now sought after - board games from the Avalon Hill era. Two titles that come to mind are Titan and Magic Realm. These games, in mint condition, regularly bring more than $150 on eBay.

They are complex only because of the detail work that has to be handled by the player (this is particularly true of Magic Realm). With the computer taking care of this number crunching and note taking, these games would become a pleasure, not a challenge, to play. Further, game play is so straightforward (by comparison to the vagaries of WitP and other ambitious designs), a decently competitive AI could probably be constructed.

Do the names "Ambush," "Vietnam," "War and Peace," "Fleet Series," "Civil War" "Up Front" ring a bell ...




sveint -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 12:19:31 AM)

quote:

I just wish Gary Grigsby would make about the American Civil War on the same scale as "War in the Pacific" -- I'd certainly jump at that game!


European Theatre for me please. WW2/Europe always made the best wargames. [:)]




pasternakski -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 12:24:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint
European Theatre for me please. WW2/Europe always made the best wargames. [:)]


Yeah. By the hundreds. Isn't it time to get more creative in game topic selection?

Look, for example, at Victory's solitaire boardgame title "Peloponnesian War." It's brilliant. It solves the AI problem by forcing the human player to change sides from time to time based on success criteria. Think of the implications for computer game AI design!




Jim D Burns -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 12:48:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: dereck

quote:


I just wish Gary Grigsby would make about the American Civil War on the same scale as "War in the Pacific" -- I'd certainly jump at that game!



yesss!!!! drool..... [:D]

27 here...


Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!? GG would have a sure hit with that one, it was one of my all time favorite board games, too bad a roommate swiped it when he moved. [sm=nono.gif]

41 here.

Jim




Jim D Burns -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 12:56:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck

V For Victory: D-Day Utah Beach <== unfortunately can't be played with Windows 95, 98 or XP [:(]





Try Dosbox. It's a great DOS emulator, I've used it to play the old V4V titles. Takes a little reading (not much, one or two pages) to become proficient with the emulator, but once you've figured it out it's very simple to use. I can play almost all of my old DOS titles with sound and all, it's a great trip down memory lane.

Here's a link: http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1

Jim




steveh11Matrix -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 1:12:16 AM)

I'm not sure I agree with the doom and gloom about the future of wargames in this thread, but I do think that the days of turn-based games are numbered. Actually, I'm a little surprised at WitP being turn based, to be honest. Maybe it's because strategy gamers equate "RTS" with "Twitch".

However, "Pauseable Real Time Strategy" works fine. The fact that you can pause makes the "Strategy" part of the title more than a pipe dream, and add a "throttle" allowing you to speed up or slow down when necessary, and you get a really good gaming environment. Instead of "Just one more turn..." you have "Just one more hour..." [:)]

BUT: there's room for lots of variation in just about ALL of human interest! [;)] So I'm not knocking turn based games, no sirree - Heck, I'm playing one! The fact that I have also played HOI, or EUII, or Victoria doesn't detract - they all are great, and I anticipate going back to them when the initial "Love fest" with WitP has worn off. Another couple of months, I expect. Then I'll come back to it again later, like I do to SPWAW every year at some point.

So, that make at least 2 companies, very different both in setup and gamestyle. I doubt very much they'll be the only ones.
I'm an optimist, yes, but one making a judgement based on what I see.

Steve.




Mynok -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 1:12:50 AM)

quote:

Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!? GG would have a sure hit with that one, it was one of my all time favorite board games, too bad a roommate swiped it when he moved.


Hey! I have that one.... Nice game, with some very interesting strategic conundrums. Would be great fun as a computer version with limited intelligence features.




sveint -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 1:43:28 AM)

quote:

Isn't it time to get more creative in game topic selection?

Look, for example, at Victory's solitaire boardgame title "Peloponnesian War." It's brilliant.


We were talking about the future of wargames like WITP. The Peloponnesian War will never make a succesful (in economic terms) wargame.

WW2, Civil War and some others will. (Note that I too like different wars/theatres but one has to face the economic realities).




pasternakski -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 2:08:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck
Can you imagine how awesome a remake of Victory Games strategic civil war title (can't remember name, published in the early 80's) would be on the PC!?

Jim

I'm with you. It's called "Civil War," and it is about as good as wargame design ever got. The leader rules are without equal, and are, as they should be, the heart of the game.

This highlights a problem with computer simulations and the difficulty with keeping turn-based gaming alive for the PC. A lot of cyber-people think the future is in innovation and RTS. The real solution, for my money, is for developers to find the elegant, sophisticated solutions already developed in boardgames and create ways to adapt them to computer wargames. There's a lot of untapped wisdom out there, folks.




pasternakski -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 2:12:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint
We were talking about the future of wargames like WITP. The Peloponnesian War will never make a succesful (in economic terms) wargame.


What is your substantiation for this claim? The movie "Troy" made money in the popular market. "Alexander" is supposed to be a killer at the box office, as well. There seems to be popular interest in the subject. Why do you assert that there is no wargaming interest in it?

BTW, I mentioned this game more for the innovative solitaire system than for the subject matter.




Cav Trooper -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 2:21:37 AM)

Actually, I've noticed that alot of my favorite types of games are becoming a dying breed. I love the Flight Sims, most of the ones from Janes. Can't find a great one now, so I'm stuck with the same old routine.

However, I miss the old days of the 15mm Napoleonic Minatures (fought Waterloo 4 times, split Allies won twice, French won Twice), Micro Armor, and Jutland (cardboard pieces and metallic ships). Remember War in the East and War in the West, would set both up in a Friends Basement, start the game and over a year later playing on weekends and some times at night, we went from the start to about mid 43 or so..had a great time. Played alot in the beginning, and then probably 2 or three times a week..

If we look at the vast majority of the Ages here, we all probably had a secondary school system (Junior High, Senior High) that stressed the basics very hard. Political Science, History, Geography, Math, Chem..Physics, etc... now all I hear kids talking about are study halls, optional classes, who's dating who, who is dealing etc...(and I'm a Sgt in the Sheriff's Office, so I also deal with the juvenile and early teen crime also). The basics of education are being dumbed down to push these kids along because parents think their kids are genius's, kids are not lazy, I'm going to sue because my kid got a d or f. Undisciplined, disrespectful, and a host of other issues(my wife teaches elementary school, and hear about the system all the time). Plus, the further we get from actual historical times, WWII, Korean War etc.. and the generation that fought these wars, we're losing perspective on the reality of history. Alot of the people who read the liberal press bemoan the fact that we've lost over 1,000 people over the last 18 months of the current Gulf War. We lost twice that many at Pearl Harbor, many more at places like Tarawa, Makin, Leyte Saipan, Omaha Beach, Air War over Europe, BOB and Korea; but we still functioned as a society, pulled together and supported the effort. Yet, no one has been able to bring that point across. It's really sad in my honest opinion...

But, to the point of the topic, Factors like the above, the instant gratification society that we live in, lack of critical thinking skills being taught in school plus a sensationalistic media, we are a dying breed. I appreciate the efforts of this group and the games that they produce which allows me to relive history, see how it actually unfolded while at the same time delve into the events that actually drove the history I'm attempting to recreate or change. Its a great education. Remember the old saying, "Don't let your studies get in the way of your Education". Well, games like ours are a way to both study and educate ourselves. Too bad the younger generation doesn't understand this. To all those under 25, I don't mean you personally, just in general.

As for new wargames, I'd like to see Terrible Swift Sword (battle of Gettysburg), War in the East, War in the West done, with elements of WITP and BTR mixed in, Korea, and Vietnam. Aerial Warfare done again along the lines of Janes systems, Vietnam with a dynamic campaign, both from a pilots perspective and from a Air Force Airwing commanders point of view.

But, til then, keep up the great work on the current game, and looking forward to the next generation of games like this.




Zeta16 -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 2:35:33 AM)

I would love to see a Cold War game on the WiTP engine. Also more WWI games on this LEVEL. Also I love turn based games and have never seen the love of shoot-um ups my friends have, since I am some what young at 27 this is what everyone I knows plays. However, my two life long goals are to see a whole world WWII game on the engine type of WiTP and a game of hockey that could start with the start of the NHL and go through present time with a complex draft and fram system that added players each year to draft when the real players came a long. They start with certain levels of skill and improve with you playing them. There would be injuries and trades and all of the good stuff. It would keep every players stats and every teams and have a hall of fame and record book. It would also add teams as they came along in real life. But I guess those last two games are just a dream.




Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 3:37:03 AM)

I am glad to see younger "wargamers" in here. It will help, I hope too keep the wargaming side of the house open. Also I hope it will help Matrix to continue too grow and grow over the years. We can help by bringing friends, buddies - young and old into our hobby.[:D][;)]




Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 3:41:11 AM)

They do for me![:'(]
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

If Matrix really wants to make some money, it should commission ports of some of the most popular - and now sought after - board games from the Avalon Hill era. Two titles that come to mind are Titan and Magic Realm. These games, in mint condition, regularly bring more than $150 on eBay.

They are complex only because of the detail work that has to be handled by the player (this is particularly true of Magic Realm). With the computer taking care of this number crunching and note taking, these games would become a pleasure, not a challenge, to play. Further, game play is so straightforward (by comparison to the vagaries of WitP and other ambitious designs), a decently competitive AI could probably be constructed.

Do the names "Ambush," "Vietnam," "War and Peace," "Fleet Series," "Civil War" "Up Front" ring a bell ...




dereck -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 3:54:55 AM)

My 2 cents is that computer combat simulations at the strategic level like WiTP cannot be real time. There is simply too much planning and THINKING involved in each turn.

If you want a "real time" game play a tactical level game where you're a tank commander or ground pounder.




dereck -> RE: Future of games like WITP (10/22/2004 4:03:56 AM)

I have a series of board games from Game Designers' Workshop I bought back in the late 1970's and a few in the early 1980's called the Europa series. They were a series of individual games that, when put together would be able to have played the ENTIRE European theatre of world war two. The maps were all of the same scale so in theory you could put them all together and play one big gigantic campaign.

From reading this thread further I now have dreams of two games on the scale of WiTP - the American Civil War (again) and World War I in Europe. I'm sure the Civil War game would probably only have a big market in the United States, but who knows?




ColFrost -> RTS vs Turned Base (10/22/2004 11:06:03 AM)

Pausing a RTS game is not the same as turn based, because it still depends on dexterity. You still have to click the right button if/when you notice the enemy force closing in. It's still dexterity based, and some of us are not dexterity skilled.

Give me turn based every time!




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