RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?

RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (Full Version)

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2ndACR -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 3:16:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito quote: ORIGINAL: moses Also there is no need to ignore the SRA. Just do what you can with 7 divisions. Japan still should stay on the offensive. Things will be slowere since you have less troops as long as the navy is superior Japan should still make gains. The only interesting thing to me is how fast can the russian be subdued. The Russia first strategy will fail if you don't abandon Kwajalein, Truk and Wake (assuming you conquered it), those troops are needed in China, to garrison the coastal cities and free up the divisions and mixed brigades there. 7 divisions vs SRA is too many. Those troops are needed in Russia. One compromise I would make because it seems to be a pretty easy and quick win is taking out Borneo right away. Not many troops required to do it and nice oil production in return. You can tie the brits down in malaysia by reinforcing the thailand cities on the malay peninsula, sending engineers and HQs there, and building up air bases and putting air units on naval attack. The Brits will attempt to drive you out of the peninsula at some point but will chew up troops and supplies in the failed attempt. Take the air base in the northern part of the malay peninsula on the other sideof bangkok, I forget the name of it. But, you don't need divisions to hold the peninsula, two mixed brigades should suffice. You can always reinforce later if need be. Why invade PI? You can't take it. Just cut it off with air power and naval forces. Take it later The Russia first strategy fails given the disposition you suggest. Hirohito Why would you strip Kwajalain, Wake and Truk? I have been replacing the divisions in China using just the forces around them. In Taan, Taiwan, Hiroshima there are plenty of SNLF's to use. Why in the world pull them from halfway across the Pacific? Makes no sense. You only need 3 SNLF and 2 Naval Gd units to garrison them. If you do not move on Malaya and the PI, any Allied player will smell a rat after 3 turns. I am running this show now huckleberry. Sit back and watch. Just wait until the Allied player starts raising hell everywhere soon.

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 3:24:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2ndACR quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito quote: ORIGINAL: moses Also there is no need to ignore the SRA. Just do what you can with 7 divisions. Japan still should stay on the offensive. Things will be slowere since you have less troops as long as the navy is superior Japan should still make gains. The only interesting thing to me is how fast can the russian be subdued. The Russia first strategy will fail if you don't abandon Kwajalein, Truk and Wake (assuming you conquered it), those troops are needed in China, to garrison the coastal cities and free up the divisions and mixed brigades there. 7 divisions vs SRA is too many. Those troops are needed in Russia. One compromise I would make because it seems to be a pretty easy and quick win is taking out Borneo right away. Not many troops required to do it and nice oil production in return. You can tie the brits down in malaysia by reinforcing the thailand cities on the malay peninsula, sending engineers and HQs there, and building up air bases and putting air units on naval attack. The Brits will attempt to drive you out of the peninsula at some point but will chew up troops and supplies in the failed attempt. Take the air base in the northern part of the malay peninsula on the other sideof bangkok, I forget the name of it. But, you don't need divisions to hold the peninsula, two mixed brigades should suffice. You can always reinforce later if need be. Why invade PI? You can't take it. Just cut it off with air power and naval forces. Take it later The Russia first strategy fails given the disposition you suggest. Hirohito Why would you strip Kwajalain, Wake and Truk? I have been replacing the divisions in China using just the forces around them. In Taan, Taiwan, Hiroshima there are plenty of SNLF's to use. Why in the world pull them from halfway across the Pacific? Makes no sense. You only need 3 SNLF and 2 Naval Gd units to garrison them. If you do not move on Malaya and the PI, any Allied player will smell a rat after 3 turns. I am running this show now huckleberry. Sit back and watch. Just wait until the Allied player starts raising hell everywhere soon. Raising hell with what? Too light on naval forces. Too light on air forces. Not enough transports. I just don't understand what you think the allies will do. You want them to move their navy in close. IJN needs the target practice. You want them to start sending air raids with obsolete planes. The AA will make short work of them. you want them to march to you to fight land battles. Dig in and let them waste away. Did you garrison all ofthe chinese coastal towns with small units and free up the divisions and mixed brigades? Hirohito

2ndACR -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 4:07:42 PM)
No, I let those units just sit there. What do you think. I have been doing that since the game first came out. It is standard move for me. Raise hell with what? You must be playing against some real timid Allied players then. Try playing against a few around here. They will have you pulling out your hair. The Allied player can easily gather 80-100 B17's within the first 2-3 months game time. Japanese fighters have little luck against them. Not to mention all the other a/c. Zero's can only be in so many places at once. The AVG alone needs 60 Zeros to counter if the AVG is full strength and even then it can be a stalemate. It gets worse once the Hurricane shows up, but this is a regular Scen 15 and not Lemurs mod which makes them a touch meaner. Over half your strategy is pinned on LUCK. Take the oil/resources in Siberia devestated and you are hurting. Allied player begins mass bombing of resources in China and you are hurting. Even is you win in Russia, if the oil/resource base is devestated, not only are you way behind schedule, but you are months from having those forces used re-deployed to finish off China and the SRA, which leaves you either empty or very close to it supply wise in the home island. That is the PRIMARY flaw in your plan. I plan on taking oil/resource bases heavily damaged, not intact. You are forgeting about or discounting the LUCK factor when securing the oil/resource bases. Whenever I invade a resounce producing base, I have a minimum of 30,000 supplies loaded up and ready to land after I capture the base. If I get the base intact, then the supplies go elsewhere. For Palembang alone, I hoard up almost 100,000 supply for the after invasion repairs. It is on ship and ready standing by just outside enemy air range waiting. I know how long it takes to gather 100,000 SPARE supply and have it on ship. Just because the supply is sitting in some base somewhere, does not mean it is available to you. Every drop of supply I get has a purpose. Every primary base I have is kept at a certain fuel and supply level at all times. Troop replacements, a/c replacements, everything costs supply.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 4:08:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito I never said I had "vast" experience. I said I had experience. Which comments in particular suggest that I have played very little WITP, if at all? What advice is flawed and how is it flawed? I'm not going to go back and parse your threads. I will if you insist, however. It seems you have written many things that indicate you have little to no actual experience with playing WiTP. Grand strategy is one thing, but the actual tools of WiTP are another. quote: Again, I have to say what difference does it make if someone does or does not play WITP, a military campaign strategy can be evaluated outside of any game. WiTP is a gaming tool. As such, it has rules it uses to model the War in the Pacific. These rules sometimes do not work as you might expect if you haven't played the game much. quote: Please, next time you insult me, know what the hell you are talking about. I think I do. A few of the above points indicate you have little to no experience with WiTP: 2. "Not if it is well planned and well executed. The Empire, IF it brings the right forces to bear in the right places can quickly overrun siberia." It is not likely to be quick no matter what you do. Unless your opponent is braindead, they will put up a tough fight. They will be able to fall back away from exposed positions and build up fortifications. Siberia is big. The Soviets can continue to fall back several times. Japanese supply will decrease as they pile division after division into far off hex. This will lower the effectiveness of the Japanese combat units. The way supply is modeled in WiTP, you can't just pile dozens of divisions into one area and expect them all to be perfectly supplied. Also, you specifically state that "the Empire, IF it brings the right forces to bear in the right places can quickly overrun siberia". How the hell do you know this? Since you don't play against the computer, don't play PBEM, and only play the occasionally hotseat match, you can't have tested this much. Quite frankly, you don't know if it will take three months or three years. 3. - "You get more than enought oil/resources/hi/supplies from siberia and china to make up for delaying the SRA campaign." No, you won't. This is a clear indicator you don't know much about the details of WiTP. First, you can easily grab a number of Chinese cities without having to go to war against the USSR. So there is no benefit for these cities. Actually, the Japanese player loses out some if you let the Chinese have Changsa and other places while chasing around after bears in the far north. Second, any benefits of additional Manchuria troops are going to be offset by the fact that the Chinese get time to rest up and build all their cities to full size nine fortifications. Instead of being weak and unable to stand up the Japanese, the Chinese will be strong and almost impossible to knock out. Finally, and most obviously, the DEI, PI, Malay, and Burma have many times as many resources and oil that Western China/Siberia have. It's an open and shut case on this question. Everyone knows this to be a fact. 4. "This is laughable. PLEASE send your submarines to the sea of japan. We need the target practice." Japanese ASW is never very good, but it is the worst at the start of the war. If you played WiTP much at all, this would be something you'd know. 5. "Only against an idiot. They can easily be cut off and starved out. Remember, the Empire will be bringing the Kwantan army, the bulk of the forces from China, the original SRA invasion force and any reinforcements received along the way to bear. The IJN will be intact unless the Japanese player is a total idiot. The air forces that historically sat the war out in Manchuko and China are now added to the fray." Again, this indicates an inexperience with the WiTP system. It's just talk, really. You will have to plan on giving the PI, DEI, Malay, and Singapore 9-12 months to build up their defenses while you take out both China and the Soviet Union. This is gonna cause a lot of problems. The Allies will build up their fortifications and air fields during this time. Many bombers and fighters can be placed at various places. By the way, you can't "starve" the DEI, PI, and Malay using the IJN. If you actually played WiTP, you'd understand this by now. There is something in the game called "resources". While they are needed by heavy industry, they also produce supply at the very place they are located at.

2ndACR -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 4:22:39 PM)
Once again. PLAY ME!!!!!!!!!! Do your worst. Any strategy you want to try. I can promise 6 turns per day if not more, at least until I leave for Iraq. And even then, I can promise you another player here will take over where I leave off and see it through to completion. So there you have it in a nutshell. Even if I get creamed by the Allies in my H2H AAR, you have already given yourself an out "only if they do this strategy wrong". So let's go. WITP_DUDE has already gamed your other strategy and shortened the war by at least a year if not 2 by gutting the IJN navy. Heck we can even go 2 day turns. Then we can blitz through a month of game time per week at my pace. The ball is in your court. Your strategy's have some merit, but you are placing too much faith in LUCK of the dice. I have been there and bit in the butt already by it.

Oznoyng -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 4:58:09 PM)
Honestly, I think you guys are ships passing in the night. You each have valid points, but neither one of you are listening.

moses -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 5:24:45 PM)
If I remember correctly all the russion resourses are close to the front lines. So a retreat back into Siberia is out of the question for the allies. Its pretty much a stand-up fight at the border win or lose unless I'm missing something. The issue remains can russia be taken quickly with 10 or so extra divisions. If so nothing the allies do in two or three months will make all that much difference if Japan still has 6 or 7 divisions to fight with in the SRA.

2ndACR -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 5:47:57 PM)
I told him SOME of his plan is valid and has merits. He is just placing too much faith in the luck of the dice rolls. You can not say "the oil/resources you capture in Russia will make up the difference for the DEI" until you take them and see how devestated they are. I have already found out that you will pay a heavy, heavy price in the DEI unless you have boots on the ground in Java by March 42. And I mean Boots. Alot of them. Just 2 Aussie brigades from Australia will cause you fits to the max. Not counting all the air power that gets deployed forward. Ever seen what 100 size 1500 AP's sunk looks like? I have. Gutted my invasion transports. Of course this was in Lemurs mod where the Hurricane is a killer fighter. I lost count of the number of Zero units I shredded pounding on Hurricanes and the AVG. Forget about even going near either a/c with Oscar's. Sure I shot down more than I lost, but I hurt worse losing 18 Zero's to his 38 Hurricanes. Do this for a week and you are left with scraps. Then Buffalos will shred your low experience pilots. I have a good hunch that I can knock out Russia, but at what cost long term? Even if I take all the oil/resources and HI intact, I then have to re-deploy all those forces. That will be a month or longer. The units will need to rebuild, that is another week or 2 if they did not get shredded. At the pace units from China and the SRA move to their assualt positions, it will be early January 42 before the attack on Russia will even begin. 2 months or so to defeat them, call it 2 months to re-deploy, you are now in June/July 42. Been there against Ron and it is not pretty. So you have given the Allied player basically 6 months of time to dig in, build up units, move units forward and you are rapidly using supplies up. Your economy is on the ropes, you can not run your industry to the max. Good luck punching through to India across trails. You may have 15 extra divisions, but you will bleed them dry conquering China. Size 9 forts are no joke. You will lose thousands of troops to decrease the level by 1. And then you will be hard pressed to even rebuild those units after you take the base. The allies still own Java and the PI, so taking Borneo does you no good, unless you like seeing all those oil/resources being burned to the ground and your ships getting shredded. Now If I can defeat the Russians by just using the Manchurian forces alone, then that is another matter.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 10:29:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Oznoyng Honestly, I think you guys are ships passing in the night. You each have valid points, but neither one of you are listening. Yes, I believe you are right. Hirohito has good knowledge of history and nice imagination. Others have more experience playing WiTP.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/11/2004 10:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moses If I remember correctly all the russion resourses are close to the front lines. So a retreat back into Siberia is out of the question for the allies. Its pretty much a stand-up fight at the border win or lose unless I'm missing something. The issue remains can russia be taken quickly with 10 or so extra divisions. If so nothing the allies do in two or three months will make all that much difference if Japan still has 6 or 7 divisions to fight with in the SRA. You will have to abandon some of those coastal resource hexes. Otherwise you may be destroyed in three or four months. Once you move into a better defensive position, your chances of lasting six months or more should vastly improve.

Cav Trooper -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/12/2004 2:17:08 AM)
I am of course assuming that this whole strategy is being proposed, if the Allies (Dutch, Brits and Americans) were not attacked therefore not at war with JA,while the main effort described is being executed.IF they are at peace, then I can see some some success in it. But I will suppose that they are at war, and then as I posted earlier, there is a number of issues I still have a concern with. However, reading all of this, and digesting it, I have a question for Hirohito...actually any of you... How will this play out if: 1. I take a number of Chinese divisions, near the coast while JA is busy trying to shoot bears as fast as they can, and push on some of the weaker areas?? Could they provide enough pressure on the IJ army to possible cause some redeployment issues??? 2. At what rate is the IJN burning up stockpiled fuel reacting to, if the Allies have been attacked and are in fact at war with Japan, hit and run raids with the small forces the Allies have on various positions still under Japanese control??? What effect would it have down the road on production and future Japanese Offenses?? 3. What can Japan gain, if after Russia falls and China succombs, in the SRA, if during this time, I am loading up excess fuel, resources and oil with my empty AK's and AP's on the return trips to OZ and points west after ferrying in extra troops and AC??..Would this not devistate Japan's economy and production abilites / plans if he was successful in capturing the majority of the SRA??? As for in historical terms of Japan being able to eliminate the Russian army, let us not forget that this now winter in that region, and (correct me if I'm wrong please) WITP does not model Weather such as the heavy snow and bitter cold, and frozen seas in any great detail, plus the lack of a substanial number of usable roads in that region in the winter would make combat challeging to say the least. And if WITP does not model this accurately, game wise yes your rates of advance would work, however, IIRC I believe that the rates of advance would be tremendously slower, and your time table about 5 times to slow. And in addition, not knowing how well prepared how the Japanese Army was for winter operations, I do know they would be facing Troops very experianced in conducting operations in these conditions. I personally feel that they (Japanese) troops would fare no better than the Germans did. As for Japan historically willing to take on the Russians, I do not feel, from what information I have found, that it was ever in the original plans of the Japanese Command structure to even contemplate this campaign. Even if PH never occured, I can not contemplate the US and Britain not reacting with military pressure on the Japanese in some form or fashion. Therefore, historically I do not see this happening from a realistic political point of view. Gamewise, I'd like to see how it would fare, and what each of you think about the questions I have. Hirohito, I agree your plan hinges almost 85% on luck. And believe you're oversimplifying the problems and successes you're predicting. Good topic of conversation though, however, I don't see it working any better than the historical plan, and actually doing worse. Too many intangebles you've left wide open for exploitation by the allies, for very little return in the long run.. Good conversation though.

moses -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/12/2004 5:47:40 AM)
All I can find are four locations that produce supply in Russia. All of these are very close to the border. As soon as these locations are occupied by Japan, Russia is finished. It just looks too easy to accomplish.

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 9:54:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 3rd ACR Tanker I am of course assuming that this whole strategy is being proposed, if the Allies (Dutch, Brits and Americans) were not attacked therefore not at war with JA,while the main effort described is being executed.IF they are at peace, then I can see some some success in it. But I will suppose that they are at war, and then as I posted earlier, there is a number of issues I still have a concern with. However, reading all of this, and digesting it, I have a question for Hirohito...actually any of you... How will this play out if: 1. I take a number of Chinese divisions, near the coast while JA is busy trying to shoot bears as fast as they can, and push on some of the weaker areas?? Could they provide enough pressure on the IJ army to possible cause some redeployment issues??? 2. At what rate is the IJN burning up stockpiled fuel reacting to, if the Allies have been attacked and are in fact at war with Japan, hit and run raids with the small forces the Allies have on various positions still under Japanese control??? What effect would it have down the road on production and future Japanese Offenses?? 3. What can Japan gain, if after Russia falls and China succombs, in the SRA, if during this time, I am loading up excess fuel, resources and oil with my empty AK's and AP's on the return trips to OZ and points west after ferrying in extra troops and AC??..Would this not devistate Japan's economy and production abilites / plans if he was successful in capturing the majority of the SRA??? As for in historical terms of Japan being able to eliminate the Russian army, let us not forget that this now winter in that region, and (correct me if I'm wrong please) WITP does not model Weather such as the heavy snow and bitter cold, and frozen seas in any great detail, plus the lack of a substanial number of usable roads in that region in the winter would make combat challeging to say the least. And if WITP does not model this accurately, game wise yes your rates of advance would work, however, IIRC I believe that the rates of advance would be tremendously slower, and your time table about 5 times to slow. And in addition, not knowing how well prepared how the Japanese Army was for winter operations, I do know they would be facing Troops very experianced in conducting operations in these conditions. I personally feel that they (Japanese) troops would fare no better than the Germans did. As for Japan historically willing to take on the Russians, I do not feel, from what information I have found, that it was ever in the original plans of the Japanese Command structure to even contemplate this campaign. Even if PH never occured, I can not contemplate the US and Britain not reacting with military pressure on the Japanese in some form or fashion. Therefore, historically I do not see this happening from a realistic political point of view. Gamewise, I'd like to see how it would fare, and what each of you think about the questions I have. Hirohito, I agree your plan hinges almost 85% on luck. And believe you're oversimplifying the problems and successes you're predicting. Good topic of conversation though, however, I don't see it working any better than the historical plan, and actually doing worse. Too many intangebles you've left wide open for exploitation by the allies, for very little return in the long run.. Good conversation though. This strategy does not depend on luck at all. I don't see how the hit and run raids that you are putting so much stock in are any different if the Empire hits Russia for a few months before turning to other targets than if the SRA takes a few months to conquer. Wouldn't you be using these hit and run raids while I was tied up in PI and Malaysia? How is it any harder for you to use hit and run raids if I am tied up in PI and Malaysia than if I am tied up in Russia? The Japanese troops living in northern Manchuko and Mongolia had been there since the 30s. Wouldn't they have adapted to cold weather? Parts of Japan are at the same latitude as the areas the Japanese would be fighting in in Siberia, it gets just as cold in those parts of Japan. The Japanese were not as unprepared to fight in cold weather as the Germans. The Japanese troops were right next to the "cold" areas you are talking about. It was just as cold in Manchuko, and the Japanese troops had been there for years. You are ignoring a major part of the Russia first plan, the IJN is a raiding force hitting your shipping. How are you going to thwart that? You are ignoring all the resources, HI, oil production, etc., picked up by taking Russia and China early. Another player posted these numbers earlier, they are not insignificant. After China falls, Burma and Malaya cannot hold, Borneo would not be able to hold either. The Allies cannot build up EVERYWHERE with overwhelming strength just because the SRA campaign is delayed a few months. IJN is going to score some upsets in hitting transports. Are you positive you can always sneak your divisions past IJN? You won't be able to do that against me. This plan does not depend on the Allies staying neutral. There isn''t anything they can do to help Russia. The Japanese did have a plan to invade Russia in compliance with their pact with Hitler. The alternative plan to stay out of the war with Russia was a surprise to EVERYONE, including many members of the Japanese government. This is a matter of the historical record. Don't take my word for it. The Japanese Army in Manchuko was afraid of Zhukov and his armor, as they had been badly mauled by Zhukov in an undeclared war in Mongolia in the 30s. Check that out for yourself. The German general staff was shocked to learn that Japan did not invade Siberia on Dec 8th as planned. I can't answer about what the game does or does not do about cold weather. If your argument is that the game does not reflect reality enough to give accurate results for a major campaign, then why do you play it? Where would your hit and run raids attack? The home islands? PLEASE do that. Indochina? Formosa? PLEASE hit me there, my air forces and IJN need the target practice. You won't have enough strength to launch a major offensive in China that does anything other than inflict casualties on the Chinese at an alarming rate. Part of the plan is to garrison the coastal cities with new troops and free up the divisions and mixed brigades there for use in the interior of China. The absence of a half dozen divisions for use in Russia is made up for by these reinforcements that free up the coastal units. I would prefer for you to move chinese troops to the coast,easier to surround and annihilate them. You seem to be under the impression that the Empire is somehow vastly weakened because they shift troops to Siberia. That isn't the case. You say that the few months spent in Siberia will result in large exploitations by the allies. But where? And why couldn't you do these same exploitations while the Empire is busy with PI and Malaysia? They take a few months to conquer. Where would you exploit precisely? With what forces? To inflict what damage? What intangibles are there and how do you exploit them? Hirohito

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 9:55:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude quote: ORIGINAL: moses If I remember correctly all the russion resourses are close to the front lines. So a retreat back into Siberia is out of the question for the allies. Its pretty much a stand-up fight at the border win or lose unless I'm missing something. The issue remains can russia be taken quickly with 10 or so extra divisions. If so nothing the allies do in two or three months will make all that much difference if Japan still has 6 or 7 divisions to fight with in the SRA. You will have to abandon some of those coastal resource hexes. Otherwise you may be destroyed in three or four months. Once you move into a better defensive position, your chances of lasting six months or more should vastly improve. With no supplies? The Empire will cut you off from supplies. You won't last six months. Hirohito

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:08:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2ndACR I told him SOME of his plan is valid and has merits. He is just placing too much faith in the luck of the dice rolls. You can not say "the oil/resources you capture in Russia will make up the difference for the DEI" until you take them and see how devestated they are. I have already found out that you will pay a heavy, heavy price in the DEI unless you have boots on the ground in Java by March 42. And I mean Boots. Alot of them. Just 2 Aussie brigades from Australia will cause you fits to the max. Not counting all the air power that gets deployed forward. Ever seen what 100 size 1500 AP's sunk looks like? I have. Gutted my invasion transports. Of course this was in Lemurs mod where the Hurricane is a killer fighter. I lost count of the number of Zero units I shredded pounding on Hurricanes and the AVG. Forget about even going near either a/c with Oscar's. Sure I shot down more than I lost, but I hurt worse losing 18 Zero's to his 38 Hurricanes. Do this for a week and you are left with scraps. Then Buffalos will shred your low experience pilots. I have a good hunch that I can knock out Russia, but at what cost long term? Even if I take all the oil/resources and HI intact, I then have to re-deploy all those forces. That will be a month or longer. The units will need to rebuild, that is another week or 2 if they did not get shredded. At the pace units from China and the SRA move to their assualt positions, it will be early January 42 before the attack on Russia will even begin. 2 months or so to defeat them, call it 2 months to re-deploy, you are now in June/July 42. Been there against Ron and it is not pretty. So you have given the Allied player basically 6 months of time to dig in, build up units, move units forward and you are rapidly using supplies up. Your economy is on the ropes, you can not run your industry to the max. Good luck punching through to India across trails. You may have 15 extra divisions, but you will bleed them dry conquering China. Size 9 forts are no joke. You will lose thousands of troops to decrease the level by 1. And then you will be hard pressed to even rebuild those units after you take the base. The allies still own Java and the PI, so taking Borneo does you no good, unless you like seeing all those oil/resources being burned to the ground and your ships getting shredded. Now If I can defeat the Russians by just using the Manchurian forces alone, then that is another matter. They won't be devestated. The base at the northern end of Sakhelin Island worth 400 oil isn't even garrisoned and the Russian has no way to garrison it. So, zero damage there. The base in far eastern siberia near the bering sea is very lightly garrisoned, it won't hold past one turn if you invade it, very little damage there. Vladisvostok can't hold past one or two turns, little damage there. If the Empire hits everywhere at once you take many bases intact. It takes good engineering units and several of them to inflict damage, the Russians just don't have enough of them to matter. If the Empire doesn't use a heavy bombing campaign the damage will be minimal. So, your argument is basically because you don't know how to conduct campaigns against strongly held islands that this strategy won't work? Doesn't Java only have 200 oil anyway? You get 600 oil in Russia/China. I wouldn't hit Java directly if it was well defended, I would cut it off from supplies and starve it out. I don't know where you get your numbers on how long it takes to go on the offensive in Russia. But, they are not accurate. Which troops are you waiting on and where are they coming from? The economy won't be on the ropes. You are discounting too heavily the resources picked up in Russia, they are not inconsiderate. What supplies are you burning? You abandoned Kwajalein, Truk and Palau. The reinforcements sent to China that freed up all the divisions and mixed brigades on the coast mean that you can launch serious offenses in China to take more resources. I just don't see that you are using up supplies at a great rate. Russia just can't hold that long. Many of the troops that went to Russia move by ship and return by ship. Once all the troops in and around Vladisvostok are in the bag, you can start returning some divisions for operations elsewhere. Instead of complaining about the strategy, learn how to conduct operations against strongly held islands. CUT THEM OFF FROM SUPPLY. Why did you let them get so built up in the first place, what was IJN doing as the transports were streaming in? Sipping tea? And your air force? You won't build Java and PI up like that against me. You might build some forts but you wont move transports in and out at will. Hirohito Hirohito

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:12:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude quote: ORIGINAL: Oznoyng Honestly, I think you guys are ships passing in the night. You each have valid points, but neither one of you are listening. Yes, I believe you are right. Hirohito has good knowledge of history and nice imagination. Others have more experience playing WiTP. That's a pretty arrogant statement. You have no idea how much experience I have playing WITP. Just because people here say that they don't know how to run campaigns, doesn't mean I don't know how to run them. Proper use of IJN to blockade PI and the DEI islands so that the allies can't just send transports in at will, and proper use of the air force to keep the airfields plastered is the key. If you let the allies move forces in at will then you are right, you won't win. But, I am not unwise enough to do that and I know how to run a blockade. Hirohito

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:16:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moses If I remember correctly all the russion resourses are close to the front lines. So a retreat back into Siberia is out of the question for the allies. Its pretty much a stand-up fight at the border win or lose unless I'm missing something. The issue remains can russia be taken quickly with 10 or so extra divisions. If so nothing the allies do in two or three months will make all that much difference if Japan still has 6 or 7 divisions to fight with in the SRA. I don't use 10 extra divisions. I use 18. The 12 rerouted from the SRA campaign and 6 from China. Some of them return after the base on the bering sea, the base on northern sakhelin, and Vladisvostok fall which is almost immediately. When I say return, I mean they are sailed to Canton for the offensive in China. If the allies did hit the Empire somewhere in force, these troops would launch an immediate counterattack. Actually, I would hope that the allies would hit somehwere I would land in behind them and cut them off. Hirohito

Raverdave -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:20:54 AM)
I'm here online still waiting for the PBEM invite.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:22:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito quote: ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude Yes, I believe you are right. Hirohito has good knowledge of history and nice imagination. Others have more experience playing WiTP. That's a pretty arrogant statement. You have no idea how much experience I have playing WITP. Just because people here say that they don't know how to run campaigns, doesn't mean I don't know how to run them. Proper use of IJN to blockade PI and the DEI islands so that the allies can't just send transports in at will, and proper use of the air force to keep the airfields plastered is the key. If you let the allies move forces in at will then you are right, you won't win. But, I am not unwise enough to do that and I know how to run a blockade. Hirohito How many hours do you play in a week?

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:22:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2ndACR Once again. PLAY ME!!!!!!!!!! Do your worst. Any strategy you want to try. I can promise 6 turns per day if not more, at least until I leave for Iraq. And even then, I can promise you another player here will take over where I leave off and see it through to completion. So there you have it in a nutshell. Even if I get creamed by the Allies in my H2H AAR, you have already given yourself an out "only if they do this strategy wrong". So let's go. WITP_DUDE has already gamed your other strategy and shortened the war by at least a year if not 2 by gutting the IJN navy. Heck we can even go 2 day turns. Then we can blitz through a month of game time per week at my pace. The ball is in your court. Your strategy's have some merit, but you are placing too much faith in LUCK of the dice. I have been there and bit in the butt already by it. Your argument against my other strategy is that WITP_DUDE is an idiot and cannot run it properly? Interesting. None of my strategies depend on luck at all. Every ship, every plane, every soldier is accounted for many, many turns in advance. Do you plan your campaigns to that level of detail? Again, this is a forum for discussion of the merits of a strategy. That is why I come here. If you believe that Russia can hold for very long you haven't looked closely at the Russian position. Examine it closely. Do you need to play a game to know that Malaysia cannot hold under determined Japanese attack? One look at the force dispositions tells you that. I don't need an out, I'm not here to "prove" anything. I am here to do what the title of this forum says "discuss strategies". Hirohito

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:23:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raverdave I'm here online still waiting for the PBEM invite. LOL, I woudn't expect it any time soon. [8\|]

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:26:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito Your argument against my other strategy is that WITP_DUDE is an idiot and cannot run it properly? Interesting. None of my strategies depend on luck at all. Every ship, every plane, every soldier is accounted for many, many turns in advance. Do you plan your campaigns to that level of detail? Hirohito You are totally full of ****... I'm the only one who had the stupidity to try your stupid strategy and all you can say is I'm an idiot. Now your Russian strategy is being disproved. Time to come clean, you don't play WiTP, do you? If so, start posting some results.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:32:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito The Japanese troops living in northern Manchuko and Mongolia had been there since the 30s. Wouldn't they have adapted to cold weather? Parts of Japan are at the same latitude as the areas the Japanese would be fighting in in Siberia, it gets just as cold in those parts of Japan. The Japanese were not as unprepared to fight in cold weather as the Germans. The Japanese troops were right next to the "cold" areas you are talking about. It was just as cold in Manchuko, and the Japanese troops had been there for years. Japan is nothing like Siberia, weather wise. Going on the offensive in subzero temperatures in December and January... yeah, that would have worked out well. [8\|]

Raverdave -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:36:09 AM)
Hmmmmmmmm I wonder what the correct term is for someone whom refuses to fight? Hello ? Hirohito ? Are you there? Have you started to set up our PBEM game yet ????

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:47:01 AM)
He claims to only play hotseat for some reason, but there is still the option of copying his results and posting them here. Since he does not do that, one can only assume he does not actually test these strategies out. Therefore, he can't really claim these are great strategies to follow. They are only untested ideas he has from reading books and having a healthy imagination. You'd probably be better off going to random history sites and blindly asking for advice from the first person you come into contact with.

Hirohito -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 10:50:05 AM)
2. "Not if it is well planned and well executed. The Empire, IF it brings the right forces to bear in the right places can quickly overrun siberia." It is not likely to be quick no matter what you do. Unless your opponent is braindead, they will put up a tough fight. They will be able to fall back away from exposed positions and build up fortifications. Siberia is big. The Soviets can continue to fall back several times. Japanese supply will decrease as they pile division after division into far off hex. This will lower the effectiveness of the Japanese combat units. The way supply is modeled in WiTP, you can't just pile dozens of divisions into one area and expect them all to be perfectly supplied. Also, you specifically state that "the Empire, IF it brings the right forces to bear in the right places can quickly overrun siberia". How the hell do you know this? Since you don't play against the computer, don't play PBEM, and only play the occasionally hotseat match, you can't have tested this much. Quite frankly, you don't know if it will take three months or three years. How do you know how often I play hot seat? How do you know how often I have tested this? You are very arrogant and insulting about someone you know nothing about. Take one look at the map. The Russian troops in and around Vladisvostok have their head in a noose. Very few bases in Siberia actually produce supplies. Properly planned, you can cut the Russians off from supply quickly. How do you fortify bases without supply? I know exactly how long it takes to take Siberia. you say that i know nothing about supply, but you have no real basis for making that statement. I would say based on your arguments that you don't know how to run an effective campaign unless you are copying a well known one like the one the Japanese originally used. 3. - "You get more than enought oil/resources/hi/supplies from siberia and china to make up for delaying the SRA campaign." No, you won't. This is a clear indicator you don't know much about the details of WiTP. First, you can easily grab a number of Chinese cities without having to go to war against the USSR. So there is no benefit for these cities. Actually, the Japanese player loses out some if you let the Chinese have Changsa and other places while chasing around after bears in the far north. The reinforcements moved into the chinese coastal cities free up the divisions and mixed brigades there. What do you think I do with them? A few are sent to manchuko, where do you think the rest go? Let's see. How about for offensive operations in China? Gee, what a concept. I'm not going to give the Chinese any rest. It was never the plan to sit idle in china while Siberia is being taken out. Some of the troops are freed up from Siberia right away, mainly the ones taking out northern Sakhelin island and the base on the far east of siberia near the bering sea, and some of the troops in the vladisvostok operation. They move by ship to canton for immediate action against the chinese cities near canton. Second, any benefits of additional Manchuria troops are going to be offset by the fact that the Chinese get time to rest up and build all their cities to full size nine fortifications. Instead of being weak and unable to stand up the Japanese, the Chinese will be strong and almost impossible to knock out. No, they won't. The force dispositions do not change the balance. Some divisions move to manchuko, others move from the coastal cities into the interior of china. The force dispositions are a wash. Offensive operations begin immediately. Troops start coming back from Siberia almost immediately. How long do you think it takes to take northern sakhelin island? It isn't even garrisoned. And the base in the far east of siberia on the bering sea? It falls on the first landing. How long do you think Vladisvostok holds if you attack it correctly? It doesn't. Finally, and most obviously, the DEI, PI, Malay, and Burma have many times as many resources and oil that Western China/Siberia have. It's an open and shut case on this question. Everyone knows this to be a fact. They don't have many times as many resources. Speaking just of oil, you get 600 oil from russia/china. And you are assuming that you can keep ALL the oil production out of the Empire's hands after Russia falls. Are you saying that the allies can be strong EVERYWHERE after a few months? 4. "This is laughable. PLEASE send your submarines to the sea of japan. We need the target practice." Japanese ASW is never very good, but it is the worst at the start of the war. If you played WiTP much at all, this would be something you'd know. Actually, I do quite well against the Allies submarines. It's not my fault if you don't know how to run ASW operations correctly. 5. "Only against an idiot. They can easily be cut off and starved out. Remember, the Empire will be bringing the Kwantan army, the bulk of the forces from China, the original SRA invasion force and any reinforcements received along the way to bear. The IJN will be intact unless the Japanese player is a total idiot. The air forces that historically sat the war out in Manchuko and China are now added to the fray." Again, this indicates an inexperience with the WiTP system. It's just talk, really. You will have to plan on giving the PI, DEI, Malay, and Singapore 9-12 months to build up their defenses while you take out both China and the Soviet Union. This is gonna cause a lot of problems. The Allies will build up their fortifications and air fields during this time. Many bombers and fighters can be placed at various places. It isn't 9-12 months. Maybe YOU would take 9-12 months. And how are you going to be moving all these transports into PI, DEI, Malay and Singapore,what do you think I'm going to be doing in the meantime? Keeping IJN in dry dock? Keeping my planes on training missions? Not to mention Mine Layers and submarines. Only an idiot would allow allied transports to come and go as they please. By the way, you can't "starve" the DEI, PI, and Malay using the IJN. If you actually played WiTP, you'd understand this by now. There is something in the game called "resources". While they are needed by heavy industry, they also produce supply at the very place they are located at. Gee, I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. So, what you are going to do is move troop transports past my navy and air force to any place you wish, and oil tankers past my navy and air force into places that don't have oil, and you have no islands that don't produce anough supply so that you dont have to move supply transports to them, please give me a break. You have to move things around and I'm going to stop you. You can't be strong everywhere. You make assumptions that just aren't true. And you assume you are going up against an idiot. Yes, some islands produce their own supplies, to a point. How many troops can they supply? Some islands have their own oil,but what about the ones that don't? And how do you move the oil out so that you can actually use it? For any given island, it takes a certain level of resources to produce enough supplies to support a large body of troops on the island. So, you are saying that the number of troops that can be supported is always sufficient to defend the island given the supplies that are produced, for every place you want to defend? And, you are further saying you can defend every base simultaneously, to avoid the situation that the Empire forces will take some bases on an isolated island and make supplying the troops there more and more difficult? See, I think you are the one that doesn't know much about playing this game if you cannot keep the allies off balance for the few months it takes to finish the Russians. Hirohito

WiTP_Dude -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 11:31:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hirohito How do you know how often I play hot seat? How do you know how often I have tested this? You are very arrogant and insulting about someone you know nothing about. Fine, I withdraw my previous statement. Now please inform us how much hot seat you have played. quote: The reinforcements moved into the chinese coastal cities free up the divisions and mixed brigades there. What do you think I do with them? A few are sent to manchuko, where do you think the rest go? Let's see. How about for offensive operations in China? Gee, what a concept. I'm not going to give the Chinese any rest. It was never the plan to sit idle in china while Siberia is being taken out. Some of the troops are freed up from Siberia right away, mainly the ones taking out northern Sakhelin island and the base on the far east of siberia near the bering sea, and some of the troops in the vladisvostok operation. They move by ship to canton for immediate action against the chinese cities near canton. You have't addressed my comments properly. One should always move these divisions aay from the coastal cities, whether you attack Siberia or not. You can't attack the Chinese if you send several units to Manchuria. quote: No, they won't. The force dispositions do not change the balance. Some divisions move to manchuko, others move from the coastal cities into the interior of china. The force dispositions are a wash. How are they a "wash"? Players ALREADY move the coastal units into the interior. If you then send some interior units to Manchuria, you are down units. In my match against Zeta, I stripped every city to the minimum garrision needed. quote: They don't have many times as many resources. Speaking just of oil, you get 600 oil from russia/china. And you are assuming that you can keep ALL the oil production out of the Empire's hands after Russia falls. Are you saying that the allies can be strong EVERYWHERE after a few months? Most of the oil in China can be gotten without attacking Siberia. That is the main point here. Sian and Lanchow are very easy to take. However, if you send several divisions to Manchuria, the Chinese player may have time to fortify these places properly. quote: Actually, I do quite well against the Allies submarines. It's not my fault if you don't know how to run ASW operations correctly. Wow, more of Hirohito's "magical" tactics that he won't share with anyone else. [8\|] quote: It isn't 9-12 months. Maybe YOU would take 9-12 months. How long did it take you in your hotseat test to take out Siberia and China? quote: Gee, I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. So, what you are going to do is move troop transports past my navy and air force to any place you wish, and oil tankers past my navy and air force into places that don't have oil, and you have no islands that don't produce anough supply so that you dont have to move supply transports to them, please give me a break. You have to move things around and I'm going to stop you. You can't be strong everywhere. There are plenty of islands that produce enough supply on their own. 1 resource point equals 1 supply point per day I believe. Places like Kendari always have access supply that needs to be shipped out. quote: See, I think you are the one that doesn't know much about playing this game if you cannot keep the allies off balance for the few months it takes to finish the Russians. Maybe so but I have actually displayed some knowledge of how the nuts and bolts of the system work. Perhaps I am as dumb as you say, but why then is my knowledge of the WiTP system greater than yours? You are a strategic genius but not educated in WiTP reality.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 11:35:55 AM)
If Hirohito had any sand in his pockets he'd test his plans in a PBEM game. If not, the guys is farting and words are coming out. Honestly, not planning on taking the SRA by March/April in favour of the Soviet Union (which will stay out of the conflict) is supremely flawed thinking. All the resources you need are there and if you do it quickly, you can destroy alot of units, setting any counterattack back by a lengthy amount of time. If you delay, you might run into a brick wall and be left with nothing appreciable gained by 1943, not a good situation.

2ndACR -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 12:01:52 PM)
Hirohito, Are you sure you playe the game? I have taken many UNDEFENDED oil/resource bases and have had them devestated. Miri is almost always banged up. Same for Sorong. Why not go take a look at moses' AAR he has going. He is getting butchered. But you will just say he is not doing it right. Your theory on Japan's army air force being able to defeat the Russian's air force is a farce. The LaGG-3 and Mig's are a match for even the Zero's. Those a/c gave the Germans fits in Europe. Have you looked at the Russian units? They are not understrength Chinese units, they are almost even in strength to the Japanese divisions. IF I can not move transports at will in and out of the SRA against you, prove it. Want my email address so you can send the turn? You have tried to discount every argument we tell you, but most of the people who are telling you that it more than likely not work are Japanese players. The heck with a surrogate player for you, get to a computer and PROVE it to me. Make me a believer in your dominance. I will gladly hand you your head on a platter.

moses -> RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here? (11/13/2004 3:54:15 PM)
1. Japan needs to augment it AF in Russia or it will suffer heavily. About three zero squadrens seems about right. 2 to fly long range CAP over the main attack location on a rotating basis. Another to fly cap and escort over the main JP bomber base. Nates and other fighters that start in Russia to be used to fly CAP over resourses and bases in Russia. 2. The troops in Russia are mutually self supporting and can be moved to any trouble spot very quickly. The forces in IMAM can get to Vladastok or B in about a weeks time. Unless the Russian is asleep there is no alternative to a large battle. 3.An invasion using 18 Divisions would of course be faster then my AAR. I suspect you could take B within a week. In this case I would take the northern 2/3 of my army and retreat into siberia. The rest of eastern russia would be lost but it would still take a month of so to mop it up. If Japan wants to chase me into Siberia now that will be interesting. Its a long way to go even if completely unopposed. Siberia gets 3000 supply per turn so as the russian gets deeper into the interiot his supply situation improves. Even if Japan wins there it will take monthsa and then more months to walk back.

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