RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file

RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (Full Version)

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Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/4/2004 11:44:38 PM)
"Vocal obsessive". That must be me! Looking at your edited post with a quote of my sitrep gave it away. No offence meant to you Paul, you are doing a thankless job as the editor is exremely labour intensive. I've also been having a very stressful time at work as well for a few months...maybe it's setting me off as well. Not sure if you noticed this with the editor, I did a few weeks back. If you have to change a device error or whatever in a ship class, simply changing the class does not change all the ships already in (Justin advised me of this as did you with the LST entry error I made last year which you had to fix. Sorry again!) But each ships does not have to be changed same as class. Simply picking another class for the class field then changing it again to corrected applicable class reloads all fields to new configuration. Just 2 mouse clicks as opposed to many.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 12:12:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pry Ok had a very bad (stressful) last 2 weeks at work (at my real Job) and after reading some of the crud in this thread and a few others I admit I lost my temper and patients to even deal with some of the more vocal obsessive folks around here and walked away from the forum for most of the last week... I have calmed down and it appears that many of you have also so lets get back to work as a team... leave the trash talk at the door no whining no crying over this and that. Let's get this solved Ok... Ok I need some input from players who seem to have a higher than the rest of us numbers of this issue occurring to them, do you as a normal course of play examine allot of your air groups, task forces and LCU's on a regular basis without giving orders to them Just opening the detail screen taking a look and closing it and moving to the next unit at the location? There are multiple causes that end up with the same effect, so we need to track them down one by one, Right now one of the things I am looking at is when you open the unit detail screen and presto there is the unnamed WO in command??? I am looking at the sequence of events that lead to the leader loss because it is hard as hell to reproduce... I only look at a units detail screen when I issue an order to that unit I don't surf the stack at a location and I do not suffer from the issue like the number of occurrences reported by some of you. Post comments here or email me at pry-witp@houston.rr.com, I don't respond to all email but I read it and look into all issues and reply if I have questions (Time just does not allow to answer each and every message) Every one leave their ego at the door and let's work on solving this... Yes, I tended to look at my naval leaders alot when testing as a beta as I am very familiar with their names and was curious to see how accurate the detail was initially.(otherwise another useless talent I have...why not musical or something? Not even good for Jeapordy this trivia) Did not notice too many "foreign" leaders then, some merchants had them but sporadic and it looked like a database error and not AI driven. I would give orders etc. It seemed some time before things started to look out of whack and because we restarted so often with new builds, the issue never really grew in apparent size. Have you opened the first turn save I sent you? This is the first save sent by my Japanese opponent 2ndACR (Dave). You don't nead a password from me, just pick your own. Go to Manila and PH and check the subs as a quick way to find some flaws. I believe all the subs in port have new leaders from the ones entered in the scen database. Nothing has been done by player to change leader as the leader name does not change from white to gold (indicating a player can interact with the data...this occurs only if said vessel is in a TF and docked) So I'm drawing from this that it is not necessarily a problem driven by player interaction. I've been trying to get a leader to change on me visibly but have had no luck. I was hoping that I found a way, I may still have but I've had no bites yet. Where I think it may occur for ships is as follows. Click on a TF at sea and set it's destination to nearest friendly port. When it is docked, click on ship detail screen. Leader should still be in white text indicating it is not player accessible. While detail screen is still open, order the TF to replenish. As soon as you do this, the leader script turns gold indicating player can now access the leader. I assume hitting replenish causes the ship to dock and frees up leader. No leaders have changed yet but it's early. As ships return with damage, low ammo etc perhaps this acts as an instigator. I'm going to keep watching this and other variables as I continue my game. Just to let you know many of us are actively helping even if we are overly passionate about the game and vocal.

pry -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 12:28:32 AM)
quote: Have you opened the first turn save I sent you? This is the first save sent by my Japanese opponent 2ndACR (Dave). You don't nead a password from me, just pick your own. Go to Manila and PH and check the subs as a quick way to find some flaws. I believe all the subs in port have new leaders from the ones entered in the scen database. Nothing has been done by player to change leader as the leader name does not change from white to gold (indicating a player can interact with the data...this occurs only if said vessel is in a TF and docked) So I'm drawing from this that it is not necessarily a problem driven by player interaction. Sorry Ron No Joy... I am not even going to try to look at a non stock scenario save... I am not saying the scenario creator did anything wrong but I have no idea of what changes he made to the scenario data base and there is no way to compare to the known data base for linkage to the issue. Get me a save like this one from a stock scenarios and I'll be hapy to spend all the time it takes...

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 12:37:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pry quote: Have you opened the first turn save I sent you? This is the first save sent by my Japanese opponent 2ndACR (Dave). You don't nead a password from me, just pick your own. Go to Manila and PH and check the subs as a quick way to find some flaws. I believe all the subs in port have new leaders from the ones entered in the scen database. Nothing has been done by player to change leader as the leader name does not change from white to gold (indicating a player can interact with the data...this occurs only if said vessel is in a TF and docked) So I'm drawing from this that it is not necessarily a problem driven by player interaction. Sorry Ron No Joy... I am not even going to try to look at a non stock scenario save... I am not saying the scenario creator did anything wrong but I have no idea of what changes he made to the scenario data base and there is no way to compare to the known data base for linkage to the issue. Get me a save like this one from a stock scenarios and I'll be hapy to spend all the time it takes... Actually, I think I have a stock 1.3 ready to go (PBEM Jap first turn received), I'll get cracking.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 1:33:11 AM)
OK, checked the stock scenario and low and behold, the leaders seem to be allright! This leads me to a series of questions. Earlier, just using stock scenarios, the leader "bug" took awhile to reveal itself, either as we were not changing leaders very often and as ships were lost and leaders killed, new ones were created by the random leader. It took awhile for this "bug" to expand, if leader loss and is a root cause. Now back to Lemurs 4.0 before I added two sub leaders (Mort Mumma for Sailfish and Mush Morton...a PCO on Wahoo under Pinky Kennedy so not in command when Wahoo arrives. I just placed him in the pool). A "stock Lemurs" I don't think has any leaders added as the leader "bug" behaved basically the same way as an official scenario in any build configuration. The major across the board leader screwups occurred with my Lemurs 4.0 having added these two leaders. Three observations/queries here as well. One: I'm wondering if having added the two leaders caused a cascade or domino effect with leader database from the outset? (used the insert feature) Two: Does loss of a leader due to ship sinkings cause a cascade or domino effect with the database? Three. Since the original beta build prior to us adding the refit classes and extra OOB additions have something to do with this leader "bug"? The ships are no longer exactly in an orderly fashion within the database string. Thoughts?

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 1:36:05 AM)
I noticed using my scenario 27 so long as there is NO AI things going, the leader bug isn't that bad. I did have several leaders replaced, but when I turned off Auto-subs it seemed to go down.

pry -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:06:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker OK, checked the stock scenario and low and behold, the leaders seem to be allright! This is why I will not even look at a non stock scenario most of the issues reported are most always player created and no fault of the game. If someone wants me to look at their scenario that they have built for errors and help with a problem I will but not for game play issues. quote: This leads me to a series of questions. Earlier, just using stock scenarios, the leader "bug" took awhile to reveal itself, either as we were not changing leaders very often and as ships were lost and leaders killed, new ones were created by the random leader. It took awhile for this "bug" to expand, if leader loss and is a root cause. The idea is to try to track down exact causes and effects, I have several likley (to my mind) suspected causes but with out a repeatable save for Mike to look at the actual event (and code) there is no way to confirm and fix. I think the Tf flag getting sunk is one specific cause. That is also why I am asking for specific sequence of events that lead up to a leader getting replaced so I can try to catch one mysel using the same general steps. quote: Now back to Lemurs 4.0 before I added two sub leaders (Mort Mumma for Sailfish and Mush Morton...a PCO on Wahoo under Pinky Kennedy so not in command when Wahoo arrives. I just placed him in the pool). A "stock Lemurs" I don't think has any leaders added as the leader "bug" behaved basically the same way as an official scenario in any build configuration. Ron [:-] Never insert leaders.... or anything else for that matter... The other data bases are flagged to a specific slot in the leader data base, ship XXX has comander XXX in slot 16427 if you insert a new leader into a slot before 16427 you push all the leaders below 16427 down 1 slot and the names no longer match up with the intended specific leader. quote: The major across the board leader screwups occurred with my Lemurs 4.0 having added these two leaders. Three observations/queries here as well. One: I'm wondering if having added the two leaders caused a cascade or domino effect with leader database from the outset? (used the insert feature) Two: Does loss of a leader due to ship sinkings cause a cascade or domino effect with the database? Three. Since the original beta build prior to us adding the refit classes and extra OOB additions have something to do with this leader "bug"? The ships are no longer exactly in an orderly fashion within the database string. Thoughts? For one and two see above, for 3 there are some ships that arrive on a specific date but the commanders have a different arrival date we are fixing all of those now to eliminate this as a cause or contributing cause, contrary to some folks belief we actually are spending a great deal of time and effort to get to the bottom of this and fix it once and for all. See Ron this is so much eaiser to communicate and get answers when we are all playing and working well with others [;)]

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:14:08 AM)
quote: Ron Never insert leaders.... or anything else for that matter... Wait a minute... we can't insert leaders into the game? This is very odd indeed... Why on earth is it there in the editor for us to change, if changing them causes the bug? Not trying to be a pain or anything, but I'd hate to think that because I have to yank out some of the more well known leaders for War Plan Orange, it causes the leader bug.

pry -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:30:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace quote: Ron Never insert leaders.... or anything else for that matter... Wait a minute... we can't insert leaders into the game? This is very odd indeed... Why on earth is it there in the editor for us to change, if changing them causes the bug? Not trying to be a pain or anything, but I'd hate to think that because I have to yank out some of the more well known leaders for War Plan Orange, it causes the leader bug. Yes Justin you can insert leaders into the game the issue is how you do it... Do it wrong and you screw up the leader list. In the leader data base all 19999 slots are filled so in order to add a leader and not mess up ones already flagged by another data base like ships or groups or location, you have to erase data in an existing slot or delete the specific slot number (Erase data in the slot is much better than deleting) If you delete the slot you must then insert an replacement in its place or you push all leaders below that slot down one number and nothing matches up as intended or planned. For instance W F Halsey is in slot 10527, and CentPac HQ has Halsey 10527 assigned as its leader, then you go in and add leader John Q Public into slot 10000 by using the insert function, you then add J Q Public but now every leader below Mr Public has been driven 1 slot down in the data base, so when Cent Pac calls for W F Halsey that is supposed to be in slot 10527, he is not there and you see 10526 Halsey, F.B. because he is now in slot 10527 and the other Halsey is now in slot 10528...

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:32:34 AM)
OK I get it, then I have been doing it right. I was getting kind ascared there for a little bit [:D] Ok, thanks for clearing that up Paul.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:35:09 AM)
quote: Ron Never insert leaders.... or anything else for that matter... The other data bases are flagged to a specific slot in the leader data base, ship XXX has comander XXX in slot 16427 if you insert a new leader into a slot before 16427 you push all the leaders below 16427 down 1 slot and the names no longer match up with the intended specific leader. So it was not me seeing things...there was a visible shift here when I hit insert. So maybe with each loss of leader or a player changing a leader causes this shift for all those ships not at sea which are therefore vulnerable to this shift. I find it weird that we cannot "insert" as there are few visible empty slots given the inability to filter the database at the present time.

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:36:56 AM)
YOu can add leaders to the end of the database, but not insert leaders. If you insert a leader, you have to reassign all the elasders below him.. That explains all your screwed up subs before you did orders.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:37:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pry quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace quote: Ron Never insert leaders.... or anything else for that matter... Wait a minute... we can't insert leaders into the game? This is very odd indeed... Why on earth is it there in the editor for us to change, if changing them causes the bug? Not trying to be a pain or anything, but I'd hate to think that because I have to yank out some of the more well known leaders for War Plan Orange, it causes the leader bug. Yes Justin you can insert leaders into the game the issue is how you do it... Do it wrong and you screw up the leader list. In the leader data base all 19999 slots are filled so in order to add a leader and not mess up ones already flagged by another data base like ships or groups or location, you have to erase data in an existing slot or delete the specific slot number (Erase data in the slot is much better than deleting) If you delete the slot you must then insert an replacement in its place or you push all leaders below that slot down one number and nothing matches up as intended or planned. For instance W F Halsey is in slot 10527, and CentPac HQ has Halsey 10527 assigned as its leader, then you go in and add leader John Q Public into slot 10000 by using the insert function, you then add J Q Public but now every leader below Mr Public has been driven 1 slot down in the data base, so when Cent Pac calls for W F Halsey that is supposed to be in slot 10527, he is not there and you see 10526 Halsey, F.B. because he is now in slot 10527 and the other Halsey is now in slot 10528... Aha. Takes time to figure out all the vagaries. Well, I just have to reload the leader backup. Then find a free slot or two.

pry -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 2:46:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker Aha. Takes time to figure out all the vagaries. Well, I just have to reload the leader backup. Then find a free slot or two. All you have to do is ask Ron I have spent more time in the editor than most players will spend on the game in total. The best thing to do is if you want to replace commander xxxxx with commander yyyyy just replace the data in xxxxx slot with yyyyy's name and info that way you do not mess up any of the other leaders in the list or if you want to retain xxxxx and put him into the pool then erase another slot's info that you don't care about just make sure you change the ship in question to look to the new slot or it will still pull the old leader.

Bodhi -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 3:29:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pry just make sure you change the ship in question to look to the new slot or it will still pull the old leader. Is there a quick way in the database editor to find out if any particular leader is assigned to a ship/unit, and if so which ship/unit?

pry -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 3:47:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bodhi quote: ORIGINAL: pry just make sure you change the ship in question to look to the new slot or it will still pull the old leader. Is there a quick way in the database editor to find out if any particular leader is assigned to a ship/unit, and if so which ship/unit? Currently no there is not, however one of the C++ programming gurus like Michael McFarland might be able to work up a utility that could provide the answer. I can not say enough good things about Michael he has been a huge help to me during the patch process, If I ever get back to the land of Oz or he shows up here in Texas I am absolutly going to buy him several cold ones in appreciation...

Bodhi -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/5/2004 4:17:14 AM)
Once Mike Wood released the format of the scenario databasefiles, database checkers/extractors became pretty easy to write. I'm surprised you never had some sort of database consistency checker from the start (I always assumed you had). Might have saved you time and heartaches in the past. [;)]

PeteG662 -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 3:22:31 AM)
Pry, I am still searching for anomalies on the leader issue and will continue to send save files when they crop up. This is my sole mission in a scenario 15 version 1.3 so hopefully I will have some data for you to work with. I do not see any AI vagarities and am using limited Auto Convoys to Hawaiian islands. Pete

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 5:44:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tallyman662 Pry, I am still searching for anomalies on the leader issue and will continue to send save files when they crop up. This is my sole mission in a scenario 15 version 1.3 so hopefully I will have some data for you to work with. I do not see any AI vagarities and am using limited Auto Convoys to Hawaiian islands. Pete Seeing what happened to my leaders after inserting just two into the mix, I'd bet a case of my favourite beer (Duckstein) that it has everything to do with with leaders being lost when their ship is sunk and the AI is inserting new random leaders into the database, displacing the leaders which are further down the chain from the lost one. This displacement may actually be imitating a CO being lost from his ship. Does not happen at sea, only when a player has ability to change them...when a TF is "docked" at a port. This may be effecting our ability to recreate the occurence. During a fresh H2H game, I'm going to try to get only one Allied ship or Japanese ship to go down per turn while I have only one active TF docked in a port, one for Japan, one for USN. All other units I am going to stand down. The two active units will be one IJN sub in same hex as 1 USN ship in a TF in the subs hex. Sooner or later a leader will die and then I can check each docked TF to see if the leader is displaced and therefore assumed lost.

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 6:36:18 AM)
I just had another thought. I noticed that leaders that appear in some of the later scenarios, if they were killed or something, have a 9999 delay. However, instead of having their rank and abilities, they are listed as WOs with 0/0 ratings. Could this have some impact on the leader bug perhaps?

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 6:53:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace I just had another thought. I noticed that leaders that appear in some of the later scenarios, if they were killed or something, have a 9999 delay. However, instead of having their rank and abilities, they are listed as WOs with 0/0 ratings. Could this have some impact on the leader bug perhaps? Not clear about your meaning, Justin. So dead leaders remain in the database slots for ship and show as WO 0/0 with 9999 or something like that?

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 6:55:41 AM)
Well take leader #19994 Yuson, T. S. In Scenario 15 he is a Philippines LTC, wiht a skill of 40 and inspiration of 40. In scenario 14 (Campaign 42B) he is still in the database, but with a 9999 delay. However, this time he is listed as a Japanese WO.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 7:32:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace Well take leader #19994 Yuson, T. S. In Scenario 15 he is a Philippines LTC, wiht a skill of 40 and inspiration of 40. In scenario 14 (Campaign 42B) he is still in the database, but with a 9999 delay. However, this time he is listed as a Japanese WO. Seen...hmmm. Seems screwy. I have a question. Since I need to change the leaders back to normal to get them to work, is the scenario I created totally screwed? I either change all leaders back (start fresh) or change individual leaders one by one in a very brutal editor field. I am aren't I!?? That would severely blow! I'm now pulling my hair out. Thank you whomever designed the editor. I can't reload the default leaders. I've replaced the wpl file, the wpp file what else can I try? The leader list is nearly impossible to use. Try to use the FIND feature and it is only good for three letters! I finally find the darn guys (I only inserted 2) and they are still there. No matter what I do, no dice. By inserting 2 leaders I've basically destroyed about 50hrs worth of work on a very unfriendly editor.[:@] I'm at a loss.

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 7:36:22 AM)
Theoretically, if you delete the 2 you inserted (hit remove) it should (SHOULD) go back to normal.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 9:06:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace Well take leader #19994 Yuson, T. S. In Scenario 15 he is a Philippines LTC, wiht a skill of 40 and inspiration of 40. In scenario 14 (Campaign 42B) he is still in the database, but with a 9999 delay. However, this time he is listed as a Japanese WO. Seen...hmmm. Seems screwy. I have a question. Since I need to change the leaders back to normal to get them to work, is the scenario I created totally screwed? I either change all leaders back (start fresh) or change individual leaders one by one in a very brutal editor field. I am aren't I!?? That would severely blow! I'm now pulling my hair out. Thank you whomever designed the editor. I can't reload the default leaders. I've replaced the wpl file, the wpp file what else can I try? The leader list is nearly impossible to use. Try to use the FIND feature and it is only good for three letters! I finally find the darn guys (I only inserted 2) and they are still there. No matter what I do, no dice. By inserting 2 leaders I've basically destroyed about 50hrs worth of work on a very unfriendly editor.[:@] I'm at a loss. HELP here please.

pad152 -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 9:26:14 AM)
You know reading this thread, makes me wonder if the leader bug is tied to the following: "Checking ship structure Ship ID:8 (Hiyo) - ship arrives on 420731 with leader (Kameyama, J.) who is not yet due (421015)" Example: Lets say the Hiyo starts with another leader the ship is disbanded and reasigned to a TF after 421015? will the leader Kameyama, J now be resigned to the Hiyo? Does the leader bug have something to due with ships arriving before the leader or the leaders arriving before the ship?

Tankerace -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 9:33:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace Well take leader #19994 Yuson, T. S. In Scenario 15 he is a Philippines LTC, wiht a skill of 40 and inspiration of 40. In scenario 14 (Campaign 42B) he is still in the database, but with a 9999 delay. However, this time he is listed as a Japanese WO. Seen...hmmm. Seems screwy. I have a question. Since I need to change the leaders back to normal to get them to work, is the scenario I created totally screwed? I either change all leaders back (start fresh) or change individual leaders one by one in a very brutal editor field. I am aren't I!?? That would severely blow! I'm now pulling my hair out. Thank you whomever designed the editor. I can't reload the default leaders. I've replaced the wpl file, the wpp file what else can I try? The leader list is nearly impossible to use. Try to use the FIND feature and it is only good for three letters! I finally find the darn guys (I only inserted 2) and they are still there. No matter what I do, no dice. By inserting 2 leaders I've basically destroyed about 50hrs worth of work on a very unfriendly editor.[:@] I'm at a loss. HELP here please. For the FIND feature to work, you have to type leaders name exactly. So, lets say you did this: Morton, M. If you type morton, m. It will not work. If you type Morton M. It will not work. You have to type it exactly as you entered it.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 9:54:17 AM)
Nope.Notfrom whatI can see. When I type more than three letters the highlighted field which the first three letters brought up stays the same. Would help if I had an Editor Manual. I get a file error every time I try toopen it.

pry -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 1:20:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker Seen...hmmm. Seems screwy. I have a question. Since I need to change the leaders back to normal to get them to work, is the scenario I created totally screwed? I either change all leaders back (start fresh) or change individual leaders one by one in a very brutal editor field. I am aren't I!?? That would severely blow! No Ron, Just replace the wpl file with one from Lemures (What you based your scenario on) scenario and all will be well again quote: I'm now pulling my hair out. Thank you whomever designed the editor. I can't reload the default leaders. I've replaced the wpl file, the wpp file what else can I try? The leader list is nearly impossible to use. Try to use the FIND feature and it is only good for three letters! I finally find the darn guys (I only inserted 2) and they are still there. No matter what I do, no dice. By inserting 2 leaders I've basically destroyed about 50hrs worth of work on a very unfriendly editor.[:@] I'm at a loss. if you cant fix it send me your scenario and I'll fix it for you...

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Another Leader Bug savegame file (12/6/2004 1:36:54 PM)
I'll give it another go tomorrow. Tried last night and nada. So, the wpl file is leaders. Wpp is pilots. What is locations? Apologies for my frustration but I'm finding it excrutiatingly hard to use, especially since my editor manual is non existant from the 1.20 download. Lots of OJT. More sleep.[>:] Thanks for the help.

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