Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (Full Version)

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Ron Saueracker -> Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 2:24:17 AM)

OK. We have scenario mods coming out the ying yang. Getting confusing and must be giving Spooky headaches. Despite confirmation that a concerted effort be made regarding the mod which we (Don Bowen/TankerAce and myself) are doing, itself originally inspired by Mike Johnson's (aka Lemurs!) efforts and subsequent absence, a way around GGs hard coded "respawning feature" and now, Andy Brown's fabulous MapMod, we still have little cooperation and innumerable scen mods popping up.

Are we going to cooperate on the "Sans Pareil" scenario or what?

Mike, you in?
Andrew, you in?
Justin is doing the art when he has time out from Plan Orange and school.

Don Bowen will be the editor in chief but we should all take responsibility for a portion of the project. Best way to do this? I believe Don is OK sending us a CD with our current scenario status. We need to all know where we are and what needs to be done.

Seems we are all going off in different directions when we could be building what we all want cooperatively.



Don Bowen -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 2:38:06 AM)

quote:

Don Bowen will be the editor in chief but we should all take responsibility for a portion of the project. Best way to do this? I believe Don is OK sending us a CD with our current scenario status.


I'd be more than happy to do this and I have the time (and the CD burner). There are several others out there that are obviously well qualified and experienced and I'd willing defer to one of these.

I am primarily an OOB guy with an excellent library and a penchant for detail.

Below: six variations of 1930s Japanese freighters for the Ron/Don/Tankerace scenario. Varying size, capacity and speed.

[image]local://upfiles/757/Ay750285322.jpg[/image]



Tanaka -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 2:49:04 AM)

so when do u think this combined scenario u guys are working on will be finished??? it sounds great!!!



Lemurs! -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 2:57:23 AM)

Heck yeah! I emailed you Ron about getting some kind of chat session going that we can all read so we can get some kind of start on this.
You never emailed me back so i was unsure what was going on and I released my mod.

Let us figure some things out and get started.

Mike



mucky -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:02:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

so when do u think this combined scenario u guys are working on will be finished??? it sounds great!!!


My best guess would be a scenario based on the japanese invasion of china in 1936(Is that the right date?) [:'(]

Am i right?[:D]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:17:12 AM)

I suppose we should outline what we are trying to accomplish here. This is going to be mainly an "as historically based as we can get it" scenario.

As stated earlier, we wanted to continue what Lemurs! started regarding bringing the OOBs up to snuff. I also wanted a way around the respawning feature and this scenario provides that by including all the ships ommitted from the OOB due to the naming issue. The way it is accomplished will allow players selecting this scenario to use the respawn or not. We can't disable the respawn feature, so it will be up to the players to keep respawned vessels out of play if they don't want it or keep the historic vessels out of play (they will be recognizable by a * next to their name) if allowing respawn. Now with Andrew Brown's map, the time do this scenario is at hand. This scenario will work for the stock long map and Andy's.

Regarding the OOBs...

More is better for the Japanese. Since Japan's units have no real requirement for withdrawl as all remain in theatre, every effort is being made (by Don Bowen) to include all Japanese vessels. He has actually run out of ship slots for Japan!

For the Allies, the lack of a universal withdrawl feature hampers/skews historical unit availability and more often than not places Japan at further disadvantage because many units included were only available during certain periods during the "War in the Pacific"(TM)[;)] Not a whole lot we can do here except not include some units, be they land, air or naval. What would be really cool would be if 2by3 would expand the British Royal Navy withdrawl requirement to include the other navies and the merchant fleets. Even more cool would be a withdrawl requirement for land and air units as well.[;)]Please....[:D]with loads of sugar on it.[:D][:D]

The game will also receive reinforcements to the conclusion of the time allowed. These OOB additions will be based on realistic unit availability dates. Some new units will be included, for example, "Tiger Force" from Bomber Command with Lancasters, P-80s, F8F Bearcats, Ryan Fireballs, USS Hawaii, last two Iowas, Montanas. All Japan's cancelled vessels will be included also, Japan's success governing if any will be built.

We'll continue outlining what we are trying to do here. Any input is welcome.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:18:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Heck yeah! I emailed you Ron about getting some kind of chat session going that we can all read so we can get some kind of start on this.
You never emailed me back so i was unsure what was going on and I released my mod.

Let us figure some things out and get started.

Mike


Darn, must have slipped through the cracks over Christmas. Excellent. Should we set a CHAT ROOM time?



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:20:50 AM)

Pry is also working on a scenario and it includes a more detailed approach to air units. Maybe we can all hook up.[:)]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:25:21 AM)

Given that this is more a PBEM suited endeavour, we could also explore the Russian Pacific Fleet. One of the reasons it was omitted originally may have been the complication of incorporating it with the AI regarding active/inactive status.



Don Bowen -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:34:28 AM)

quote:

Let us figure some things out and get started.


Great!

The rough outline we have in mind is:

Use Andrew Brown's new map and new bases.
Tweaked devices (like a new Honey Tank variation that upgrades to Grants for use in British Armored units)
Greatly expand war and merchant ship classes for detail (which plays very well, by the way)
Lots of new artwork (we already have Tankerace's)
Reworked aircraft, especially with the added carrier-capable slots (we badly need a combined Allied and Japanese top, side, and top-alpha so everyone can play every scenario)
Thoroughly researched and detailed OOBs – ships, Air Groups, LCU (someone will have to help with Leaders and Pilots)
Improved TOEs (lots of good ideas on the forum, need to pull them together. Volunteers??)
“Borrow” improvements from several released scenarios - especially Andrew Brown’s and yours (Lemurs)

Here's some more merchant ships: Three variations of the U.S. World War I Liberty Ship - West Coaster, Hog Islander Type A (cargo), Hog Islander Type B (Transport). There was also a slightly larger Submarine Boat type but I don't have any reference data on it - I'd appreciate help if anyone does.

[image]local://upfiles/757/Fd925695783.jpg[/image]



jwilkerson -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:44:07 AM)

Ron,

We certianly appreciate seeing a group launch a "shareware" project.

Two comments.

1. Less is more ... when you are blue-sky-ing ... consider anything and everything. But when you nail down your scope and resources and timeframe ( and nail down all three together so everyone knows what they are signing up for ) keep it to the minimum to accomplish your overall goal IOW prioritize ruthlessly and only commit to deliver the minimal items that meet your goals - you will add things whether you want to or not but if you "commitment" list doesn't satisfy your stakeholders ... ask for more resources (or time).

2. What is currently called Japanese production ... is a zero-sum game (no pun intended) in other words the Japanese don't get any options to expand anything beyond its historial proportions ( I'm thinking air here cause that is mostly what matters )... i.e. I can't decide that carrier planes aren't worth it and build 50 Jack Sentai instead even if I wanted to. Over to ships ... I can't accelerate PC ... which is the one thing I'd want to do most IRL ( escourts to fight the USN Subs ).

Those are my two primary inputs.

Joe W.



Brausepaul -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:44:10 AM)

Guys, if some of you modders work together and release something like a combined mod...that would make my day for sure. Keep it going!



Don Bowen -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 3:52:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Pry is also working on a scenario and it includes a more detailed approach to air units. Maybe we can all hook up.[:)]


Damn Ron - four posts while I was typing one. I feel positively inadequate.

I've seen Pry's scenario and the squadron level data looks great. Some of it is in the scenario.

One of the problems we are running into is the limit of Japanese ships. Only 2999. Sounds like a lot but we used nearly 120 for the missing Japanese Landing ships. We also had added about 50 Japanese PTs but these are going to have to go due to space problems - not a big deal as they were slow and not heavily used. Some of the captured ships may be deleted too (who knows, they may not have been captured) so we can add the Japanese Standard Type A War time building program (about 140 ships) along with a bunch of additional (and valuable) pre-war merchants.

Japanese Type ES LST, Type T 1 Landing Ship (implemented as an APD), Type T-101 LST.

[image]local://upfiles/757/Ay750024396.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 4:01:03 AM)

I smell my lovely extra CV's that the real life dummies canceled coming in.[:D][:D][:D]

I will gladly play test it. Won't we Ron?

P.S. The PT boats can be tossed aside. With Ron's little ASW fix in play they are next to worthless anyway.[:D]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 4:08:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I smell my lovely extra CV's that the real life dummies canceled coming in.[:D][:D][:D]

I will gladly play test it. Won't we Ron?

P.S. The PT boats can be tossed aside. With Ron's little ASW fix in play they are next to worthless anyway.[:D]


The fix I only tried with the Mk8 torps on US PTs. If PTs use non specific torps, then I can't alter the accuracy.

I want to try adding armor to subs based on pressure hull thickness/test depth as well, as our last ASW engagement had an incredibly high hit percentage despite my adjustments. This will allow durability to come down and make subs less exhorbitantly expensive for Japan to manufacture. Apparently DCs can penetrate very small armor ratings despite having a 0 pen rating. Whether or not it will actually work is another matter.[:'(]



2ndACR -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 4:10:51 AM)

Well, I don't use PT boats anyway in our games. We never seem to get beyond my offensive period anyway.

Let me know when you make the changes and send me the fix and we will test it.



Don Bowen -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 4:44:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Well, I don't use PT boats anyway in our games. We never seem to get beyond my offensive period anyway.

Let me know when you make the changes and send me the fix and we will test it.


Only the Japanese PTs will be omitted. The U.S. ones will still be there plus the British Units of the 2nd MTB Flotilla (at Hong Kong) and the Q-boats of the Philippine Army Offshore Patrol.

I should let everyone know that there was a fully functional scenario under version 1.2. The decision to rework it was prompted by the release of the corrected scenarios in V1.3 and the mass of errors uncovered by witpchk. Then the availability of new data sources let to an explosion in merchant ship classes.

By the way, there are a number of wonderful people that have greatly helped me (and all of us) and richly deserve some thanks:

Michael McFarland for WITPchk (absolute proof of how clumsy I am) and WITPLoad. These two tools have greatly helped in finding errors and analyzing data. I have 72 meg of Access Databases built from WITPLoad extracts and they are a great help.

Spooky - his web site is download central for all of us. His site is well organized, frequently updated, provided at no charge, and absolutely indispensable.

My personal thanks to these two fine gentlemen.


USMC Standard TYpes: C1 Cargo Ship, C2 Cargo Ship, C2-S-A1 Special Cargo Type, C3 Cargo Ship, C3-P Type as an APA, P2 Type Transport (Admiral and General Classes)

[image]local://upfiles/757/Hf980833418.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 4:48:16 AM)

No worry's Don. I assumed that by now you know I am a Japanese player.

I like the thought of playing the underdog and winning the war. Not by points either. By kicking the Allied players butt all over the map any time he sticks his head out.

As long as I get my extra CV's included, I will be happy. I want to have to make choices on what to build and what to stop. I may not be able to build them all, but having the choice is the best side of it.

I will live with the 2 extra Taiho's that the dummy's ordered and then cancelled for 11 and never started in early 42. I figure their arrival date at or around Oct 44 and Dec 44.



Tankerace -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 4:55:54 AM)

This is going to be great.

My contribution to the project will increase once War Plan Orange is done, or at least in testing.

On WPO note, all ships, classes, and ship graphics are now completed. I just have to finish A/c graphics, LCUs, and building the smaller scenarios.

Also, 2 WPO graphics will be in this project, the Cruiser Tokiwa which was a minelayer in WW2, and the Panay class gunboat.

This is probably going to be the WiTP scenario to play. One can only hope it becomes official.



Don Bowen -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 5:22:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

This is going to be great.

My contribution to the project will increase once War Plan Orange is done, or at least in testing.

On WPO note, all ships, classes, and ship graphics are now completed. I just have to finish A/c graphics, LCUs, and building the smaller scenarios.

Also, 2 WPO graphics will be in this project, the Cruiser Tokiwa which was a minelayer in WW2, and the Panay class gunboat.

This is probably going to be the WiTP scenario to play. One can only hope it becomes official.


Yep - they're in there, along with all the excellent graphics that you've previously done. Here they are, Tokiwa with her aft turret removed, a cargo boom added, and mines aft. Panay is unaltered:

[image]local://upfiles/757/Lj227967816.jpg[/image]



akdreemer -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 5:58:19 AM)

I have some time to contribute. I have litterally spent hundreds of hours researching and designing OOB's and TOE's for The Operational Art of War. I have studied the Pacific War for over 35 years and have concluded that the current WITP has some sever flaws, some of which can be mitigated, some not. Let me know how I can be of assistence......



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 6:01:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

I have some time to contribute. I have litterally spent hundreds of hours researching and designing OOB's and TOE's for The Operational Art of War. I have studied the Pacific War for over 35 years and have concluded that the current WITP has some sever flaws, some of which can be mitigated, some not. Let me know how I can be of assistence......


[sm=00000028.gif][sm=terms.gif]Whack! Sign here!!! Sounds great. What do you see as the biggest deficiencies?



akdreemer -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 7:06:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

I have some time to contribute. I have litterally spent hundreds of hours researching and designing OOB's and TOE's for The Operational Art of War. I have studied the Pacific War for over 35 years and have concluded that the current WITP has some sever flaws, some of which can be mitigated, some not. Let me know how I can be of assistence......


[sm=00000028.gif][sm=terms.gif]Whack! Sign here!!! Sounds great. What do you see as the biggest deficiencies?



Some broad catagories that could be addressed by scnario mods are:

Ship endurance - way too high, need to use operational as opposed to "designed" max endurance. Indeed very few, if any, waship designed ever met its designed endurance. This would have the effect of forcing frequent refuelings, especially for destroyers which were notorious for having short sea 'legs'. Now if the cruising speed of carriers taskforces were truely fast, then they whould be at least 20kt's, at least for the USN.

Availability - Insure that all ships in service up to the end date are available. All none-West Coast built ships should arrive in San Diego, not San Francisco. San Diego was the primary naval training area for the Navy, and almost all ships assigned to the Pacific Fleet stopped here before transiting to Peral Harbor and points beyond.

Ship Upgrades - Some additional ones are needed for Japanese, especially ML's. Almost all of the Japanese ML's were specifically constructed so that they could be converted to ASW ships, and indeed most of the surviving ones were.

Tone down some moe the ASW capabilities of US Fleet Destroyers. Friedman acknowledges that ASW warfare was low on the list for fleet destroyers. He also states that a lack of a ranging sonar till late in the war severely limited the effectiveness of Fleet ASW. Indeed, one had to be somewhat lucky to find a sub in deep water.

The US West Coast ports need dedicated Base Units such like the Japanese and Commonwealth base units.

Some minor must haves -
F7F Tigercat - These should be available to Marine Corp Squadrons in early 1945.
Catalina's should have the range to transit from the West Coast to Hawaii

Some possible questions that I do not have asnswers for on hand:

Did the Marine Corp operationally organize their squadrons into Air Wings? If so this is a way to cut down on the sheer numbers of air units in the late war.

The above are just some of the problems that need to be addressed. I need to look at it some more to come up with others.


Richard Martin



CobraAus -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 7:29:52 AM)

Count me in anything I can do to HELP lot of time on my hands - at present slowly working my way through Andrews Map and teaching myself some new art techniques

Cobra Aus



Lemurs! -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 7:55:00 AM)

I had just added the T-1 APD's to my mod along with the reworked Ki45's.

Ship endurance/range/cruise speed i have worked on extensively. In my mod many ships have been lowered and a few increased.
I am a bit nervous about changing cruise speeds because Matrix as much as said without the cruise speeds as they are the AI will puke up a micro chip.
But, if we are making a scn. for Pbem, then who cares.

I have the figures to rework the American ships into 18 or 20kt TF's. Interested?

Back to Carnivale, the best show on. The only show on as i hate TV.

Mike



Don Bowen -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 8:21:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

(snipped)
Some possible questions that I do not have asnswers for on hand:

Did the Marine Corp operationally organize their squadrons into Air Wings? If so this is a way to cut down on the sheer numbers of air units in the late war.
Richard Martin


Not really. Marine Corps "Wings" performed approximately the same function as the USAAC "Air Force". Also, USMC Air Groups were composite - usually a couple of fighter squadrons and a couple of attack (dive bomber then torpedo bomber). No real way to reduce the number of Marine Squadrons.

Don



Alikchi2 -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 9:10:12 AM)

When you guys get finished, I'd like to use your scenario as a "base" for an alternate history scenario I'm working on, if that'd be alright with you. It sounds awesome. [:)]



TheElf -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 11:35:20 AM)

Unless someone else has ponied up, I'd like to contribute any planetop art that needs to be added for new A/C. It's about the only thing I am good at right now.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 11:38:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Unless someone else has ponied up, I'd like to contribute any planetop art that needs to be added for new A/C. It's about the only thing I am good at right now.


This is great, all this help.



TheElf -> RE: Concentration of effort for Scenario Mod. (1/2/2005 11:43:00 AM)

Which slots are US carrier capable slots?



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