RE: US DD and DE changes

RE: US DD and DE changes (Full Version)

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Don Bowen -> RE: US DD and DE changes (2/4/2005 4:51:14 PM)
quote: But my Gridley/McCall has been lumped to Gridley....[:(][;)] Just a name change - I guess I have a negative reaction to "slash" names. I can put it back if you want, and change Clemson to Wickes/Clemson. Opinions anyone??

Ron Saueracker -> RE: US DD and DE changes (2/4/2005 4:58:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Don Bowen quote: But my Gridley/McCall has been lumped to Gridley....[:(][;)] Just a name change - I guess I have a negative reaction to "slash" names. I can put it back if you want, and change Clemson to Wickes/Clemson. Opinions anyone?? I like dual names to point to the fact that class is purposely lumped together because of similairty, not ignorance.[8D]

Don Bowen -> RE: US DD and DE changes (2/4/2005 5:37:48 PM)
quote: I like dual names to point to the fact that class is purposely lumped together because of similairty, not ignorance.[8D] But ignorance is bliss (I replied happily).

bstarr -> RE: Radar for Old US Battleships (2/5/2005 4:46:13 PM)
quote: We've already defined a number of pre-USMC classes. These include Hog Island WWI Liberty Ships - Type A (cargo) and Type B (passenger), West Coaster WWI Liberty Ship, a World War I standard Tanker, early Navy transports (based on Henderson), Lake Type Coasters, a non-navalized President Class transport, and a large freighter of the Luckenbach line (for which we happened to have good data). Also a couple of dozen British, Dutch, Australian, Canadian and Philippine ships of various ages. Wow! That is outstanding! I had no idea the work on mercs had progressed this much. Any progress on early merc armament? I have an idea that I may try once I get my hands on the first version, but from the sounds of things so far you may have that one taken care of as well. The more I read about this mod the more impressed I become (Although, I still think Utah's a bad idea [;)]) What are the speeds of the older ships? Btw, the reason I've become so seemingly obsessive with the slower US mercs is I think it would be interesting to duplicate the fast convoy/slow convoy (they had initials, but I don't know them offhand) routines that the allies used in the Atlantic. Be sure and pm or email me when you get the 1st version out, I sometimes miss a few days without checking in here, and I'd like to get a look at the baby as soon as she's wheeled out of the delivery room. bs

Don Bowen -> RE: Radar for Old US Battleships (2/5/2005 6:09:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bstarr Any progress on early merc armament? I have an idea that I may try once I get my hands on the first version, but from the sounds of things so far you may have that one taken care of as well. The more I read about this mod the more impressed I become (Although, I still think Utah's a bad idea [;)]) What are the speeds of the older ships? Btw, the reason I've become so seemingly obsessive with the slower US mercs is I think it would be interesting to duplicate the fast convoy/slow convoy (they had initials, but I don't know them offhand) routines that the allies used in the Atlantic. As to armament - all US Merchant ships will be unarmed at the start of the war. To simulate gradual armament the various classes will upgrade to armed versions one by one. The best ships will be first in early 1942 and the rest will follow in 42-43. Merchants from Britain/Commonwealth and other nations that were at war for two years by December 1941 will arrive already armed. Speed is the one factor that I am able to find for all ships. I am estimating, guessing, and making up the other parameters and there will have to be considerable correction as time goes by. Utah - what is everyone's opinion??

Don Bowen -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 7:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: Herrbear Using your Tambor example with 6 tubes F and 4 tubes R, you could split the forward tubes into 2 devices of 3 tubes each instead 1 device of 6 forward tubes. You could also set up the rear tubes to be 2 devices of 2 tubes. Now if you listed the forward tubes as 3 tubes twice, the game will fire either 1 bank of 3 forward, the other bank of 3 forward or the 4 aft bank? By setting it up this way, achieve what you are looking for instead of worrying about what the increased tubes would do? 3, 3 or 4 would give you 4 attacks with 3 torps and 3 attacks with 4 torps, for 7 attacks all together before returning home instead of 5 as current. 3, 3, 2 or 2 would give you 4 attacks with 3 torps and 6 attacks with 2 torps for 10 attacks. Sounds good. It will also get the ammo in line. Tambors etc have 30 torps when 24 is right amount. It appears that several classes of US submarines carry too many torpedoes. Friedman's Submarine book gives number of torpedoes but not Forward/Aft position of reloads. Problems: Perch: 4 tubes forward, 2 aft, 16 total torpedoes - Matrix class 326 (generalized "P" class) totals 18 torpedoes Tambor: 6 tubes forward, 4 aft, 24 total torpedoes - Matrix class 328 totals 30 torpedoes Gato/Balao: 6 tubes forward, 4 aft, 24 total torpedoes - Matrix classes 329 and 340 total 30 torpedoes For the Perch, I can reduce the 2 aft tubes to Ammo 2 and come into line. For the modern 24-torpedo boats it is not so simple. One is mathematically tempted to reduce the 6 forward tubes to Ammo 2 but it does not make sense to carry more reloads aft then forward. Rather than arbitrarily split the tubes to reduce total ammo to 24, does anyone have data on the location of the reloads??? If no additional information is available, I will guess the following: Forward: 2 x 3 (ammo 2) and 4 x 3 (ammo 3), total 16 Aft: 4 x 4 (ammo 2), total 8

Tankerace -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 7:46:37 PM)
On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have: Tambor/Gato/Balao/Tench class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 6 Tubes, 16 Torpedoes. Salmon/Sargo class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes P class/Narwhal Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes. S class/Argonaut Aft: None, nil; Bow 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too?

Herrbear -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 8:21:53 PM)
Allied Submarines - WWII Fact Files - Anthony J Watts Sub Class - Tubes B - Tubes A - # Torps Barracida - 4 - 2 - 12 S-boats - 4 - 0 - 12 Argonaut - 4 - 0 - 16 Narwhal - 4 - 2 - 24 P class - 4 - 2 - 16 NOTE: Permit, Pickerel, Pike, Porpise and Tarpon added 2 external bow tubes (don't know if these were a war refit or pre-war). Perch, Permit and Pickerel 18 torps. Cachalot - 4 - 2 - 16 Salmon - 4 - 4 - 24 Tambor - 6 - 4 - 24 Gato/Balao/Tench - 6 - 4 - 24

Tankerace -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 8:35:32 PM)
We know # of torps, but we need where they were. Look at my data, it matches yours (escept Narwhal), but also give where the torps were, which is what we are needing. Also, are these authorized or carried amounts? Subs in the Asiatic fleet often didn't go to sea with a full compliment, and I don't think the earlier boats carried as many torps as authorized. Are you sure your Salmon is correct? I can see a jump to 20 as cited in my data, but with gain 2 tubes instead of 4 I don't think they carried 24 torpedoes.

Tankerace -> RE: US DD and DE changes (2/5/2005 8:42:11 PM)
Hehe, oops. You are right. All my esitmates are correct as to where torpedoes were stored, but I forgot to count external torpedo reloads. The Salmon Sargo had the 20 torps in positions I gave, but also had 4 torps as external reloads, bringing it up to your 24. So Don, how do we account for external reloads that could be used anywhere?

Don Bowen -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 9:15:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have: Tambor/Gato/Balao/Tench?? class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 6 Tubes, 16 Torpedoes. Right � I�ll go with the previous assumption: Forward: 2 x 3 (ammo 2) and 4 x 3 (ammo 3), total 16 Aft: 4 x 4 (ammo 2), total 8 Friedman gives 28 torpedoes for Tench class - no data on disposition. What should we do with that?? quote: Salmon/Sargo class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes The Salmon Sargo had the 20 torps in positions I gave, but also had 4 torps as external reloads, bringing it up to your 24. So Don, how do we account for external reloads that could be used anywhere? Beats me! We could assume the forward spares would be expended first and the externals would then replenish forward. This piece of absolute guesswork would result in: Forward: 4 x 4, ammo 4 Aft: 4 x 4, ammo 2 Alternately would could just leave it like it is (3 ammo for all tubes). This has the advantage of inertia. quote: P class/Narwhal Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes. S class/Argonaut Aft: None, nil; Bow 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes No problems here. quote: Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too? Not worth much but sure, why not. Do you have recommended specs??

Herrbear -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 9:15:50 PM)
Allied Submarines - Watts Dutch Subs Shows K XI as 15 knots max not 17 Shows O 21 endurance as 7100 not 10000 British subs T class shows endurance 11000 for the subs in the game instead of 7000 as these able to use part of the saddle tanks as fuel bunkers greatly increasing the range. T class - 8 - 3 - 17 NOTE: the rear tubes are 1x1 and 1x2 S class shows endurance of 6000 for those in the game instead of 5000. The followng subs should not be British "S" class. Porpoise - Porpoise class - Minelaying class Clyde - River class Rorqual - Porpoise class Vivid - V class Vigorous - V class Porpoise class - Max - 16; End - 7400; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 50 mines in 2 chutes. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 150 River class - Max - 22; End - 10000; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 216 V class - Max - 13; End 4700; Dur - 30; 4 bow tubes (21in torp) 8 total. 1x3in and 3x.303 (3x1). Fuel 59

Tankerace -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 9:26:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Don Bowen quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have: Friedman gives 28 torpedoes for Tench class - no data on disposition. What should we do with that?? quote: Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too? Not worth much but sure, why not. Do you have recommended specs?? On the Tench, I had no data for that, I just assumed that they probably retained the 24 torpedoes of the previous classes. 28 eh? I think 20 forward and the same 8 aft would be appropriate, aft torpedo rooms were not that large. On the Barracudas, here is my data for WPO (Taken from Conway's) Max speed: 18 Cruiser speed : 9 Mnvr: 70 Dur: 20 Endureance: 10000 Fuel: 350 Weapon 1: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 4, 4, F, Ammo 2 Weapon 2: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 2, 2, R, Ammo 2 Weapon 3: 5"/51 Mk 7, 1, 1, F, Ammo 18 Weapon 4, .50 cal MG, 1, 1, A, Ammo 18 Also, I don't think we should give the Barracuda's minelaying ability, but just my thoughts. [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/Barracuda.bmp[/image]

Herrbear -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 9:32:46 PM)
quote: Salmon/Sargo class Aft: 4 Tubes, 8 Torpedoes; Bow: 4 Tubes, 12 Torpedoes The Salmon Sargo had the 20 torps in positions I gave, but also had 4 torps as external reloads, bringing it up to your 24. So Don, how do we account for external reloads that could be used anywhere? Beats me! We could assume the forward spares would be expended first and the externals would then replenish forward. This piece of absolute guesswork would result in: Forward: 4 x 4, ammo 4 Aft: 4 x 4, ammo 2 Alternately would could just leave it like it is (3 ammo for all tubes). This has the advantage of inertia. I have looked at some web sites and they seem to indicate that the 4 xternal reloads were removed in 1942.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 9:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace quote: ORIGINAL: Don Bowen quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace On location of reloads, forward tubes always have more. As best as I can tell from data I have: Friedman gives 28 torpedoes for Tench class - no data on disposition. What should we do with that?? quote: Barracuda class Aft: 2 Tubes, 4 Torpedoes; Bow 4 Tubes; 8 Torpedoes While I am thinking about it, since 1) the Barracudas were used in the Pacific as training boats, and 2) I already have a graphic and data for them for War Plan Orange, do we want to include them too? Not worth much but sure, why not. Do you have recommended specs?? On the Tench, I had no data for that, I just assumed that they probably retained the 24 torpedoes of the previous classes. 28 eh? I think 20 forward and the same 8 aft would be appropriate, aft torpedo rooms were not that large. On the Barracudas, here is my data for WPO (Taken from Conway's) Max speed: 18 Cruiser speed : 9 Mnvr: 70 Dur: 20 Endureance: 10000 Fuel: 350 Weapon 1: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 4, 4, F, Ammo 2 Weapon 2: 21" Mk 10 Torpedo, 2, 2, R, Ammo 2 Weapon 3: 5"/51 Mk 7, 1, 1, F, Ammo 18 Weapon 4, .50 cal MG, 1, 1, A, Ammo 18 Also, I don't think we should give the Barracuda's minelaying ability, but just my thoughts. [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/Barracuda.bmp[/image] Don't include Barracudas. They served in Panama mainly I think. Bad enough we can't withdraw ships for service in Panama, Atlantic etc. Adding ships from Panama which were never combatants would be really pushing it.

Don Bowen -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 10:03:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker Don't include Barracudas. They served in Panama mainly I think. Bad enough we can't withdraw ships for service in Panama, Atlantic etc. Adding ships from Panama which were never combatants would be really pushing it. Aw - and I just downloaded the icon.

Tankerace -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 10:07:36 PM)
Pffft..... maybe as the Allies I want to requisition them..... so pfffft [:D]

Don Bowen -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 10:21:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Herrbear Allied Submarines - Watts Dutch Subs Shows K XI as 15 knots max not 17 Shows O 21 endurance as 7100 not 10000 Lenton agrees with Watts on K-XI. Can't verify O-21 but I'll go with it too. quote: British subs T class shows endurance 11000 for the subs in the game instead of 7000 as these able to use part of the saddle tanks as fuel bunkers greatly increasing the range. T class - 8 - 3 - 17 NOTE: the rear tubes are 1x1 and 1x2 Lenton indicates only 6 reload torpedoes so I will probably change this to: Forward: 6 x 6, 2 Ammo + 2 x 2, 1 Ammo Aft: 3 x 1, 1 Ammo (no sense worrying about midsips/aft) quote: S class shows endurance of 6000 for those in the game instead of 5000. This is Lenton�s figure for S-class (1st Group) in British Service (P-551/6). Freidman credits US S-Class (1st Group) with 7,900/6.5 (figures for S-20 after rebuilding 1n 1939) or 8950/9.5 (S-18, not rebuilt). The US figures are maximum, with fuel in main ballast tank. This one I think I will leave alone. quote: The followng subs should not be British "S" class. Porpoise - Porpoise class - Minelaying class Clyde - River class Rorqual - Porpoise class Vivid - V class Vigorous - V class Porpoise class - Max - 16; End - 7400; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 50 mines in 2 chutes. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 150 River class - Max - 22; End - 10000; 6 bow tubes (21in torp) 12 total. 1x4in and 2x.303 (2x1). Fuel 216 V class - Max - 13; End 4700; Dur - 30; 4 bow tubes (21in torp) 8 total. 1x3in and 3x.303 (3x1). Fuel 59 We have the Porpoise, River, and Thames classes � I�ll double check against your specs. I seem to recall that the two �V� class were only used for training � we have left them out.

Herrbear -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 10:30:24 PM)
Sorry I was not clear on the S boat. This was meant to be the British S class. The boats listed in Scenario 15 are all from the 3rd group of S class boats. No problem with the V class. Only commented as they were listed in scenario 15.

Don Bowen -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 10:45:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Herrbear Sorry I was not clear on the S boat. This was meant to be the British S class. The boats listed in Scenario 15 are all from the 3rd group of S class boats. No problem with the V class. Only commented as they were listed in scenario 15. There were only 6 surviving boats in the 3rd Group. Effectively the 3rd Group were improved 1st Group. A better break down of the old S-Class would be by Builder. 12 surviving 1st Group and the 6 2nd Group from Bethlehem (Quincy) and another dozen surviving 1st Group from Bethlehem (San Francisco) were the best.. Other boats from Lake and Navy Yards (2nd/4th Groups) were rather poor. The endurance for a 3rd Group S-Boat is given as 10,000/8.1 (with fuel in Main Ballast tank). Again, I'm leaning toward leaving this one alone. I missed the US/British S-boat reference and got carried away - sorry. I'll look into the British "S" class and make another post. I'll double check on the "V" boats when I get some time - not till after the Alpha is out. Don

Don Bowen -> RE: Submarine torpedo salvo sizes (2/5/2005 11:01:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Herrbear Sorry I was not clear on the S boat. This was meant to be the British S class. The boats listed in Scenario 15 are all from the 3rd group of S class boats. Lenton credits the standard 3rd Group/British "S" with an endurance of 6000 nm on 52 tons oil fuel (British and Empire Warships of the Second World War, Second Edition 1998 - page 219). He also comments: "Those boats later send out to the Far East had some of the main ballast tanks converted to oil fuel tanks to extend the radius of action; and as a feature of Far East operations was the wide spread use of the gun, a 4in replaced the 3in in most of the final series (from the Scotsman onwards). All submarines operating in this area - and this included the "T" class as well - used to proceed on patrol carrying as much shell as possible, stowed in all manner of non-regulation spaces (such as under the wardroom table) and even in the engine room." I think we will change them to 6000 and ignore the extra fuel (corrected poorly worded sentence!) My apologies, by the way, for automatically assuming you meant US S-boats and then getting carried away. Just a patriot I guess. Don

Don Bowen -> Latest Submarine changes (2/5/2005 11:53:57 PM)
Today�s Submarine Changes: Tambor class (328, 1343, 1344). Torpedoes reworked: Forward: 4 x 4, ammo 3 plus 2 x 2, ammo 2 = 16 torpedoes Aft: 4 x 4, ammo 2 = 8 torpedoes (unchanged) Gato Class (329, 1345, 1346). Torpedoes reworked: Forward: 4 x 4, ammo 3 plus 2 x 2, ammo 2 = 16 torpedoes Aft: 4 x 4, ammo 2 = 8 torpedoes (unchanged) Tench Class (new: 1552 and 1553). Torpedoes reworked: Forward: 6 x 6, ammo 3 = 18 torpedoes After 2 x 2, ammo 3 + 2 x 2, ammo 2 = 10 torpedoes Salmon: No changes. I have no data to show removal dates of the 4 external reloads so I will ignore both the removal and the external tubes added to a few of these. Remains 24 torpedoes with original disposition. Perch Class (326, 1338, 1339, 1340). Reduced aft torpedo ammo to 2 which adjusts total torpedo load to 16 except for class 1340 which has two external tubes, 18. Dutch K-XI Class (333). Reduce speed to 15. Dutch O-21 Class (337). Reduce endurance to 7100. British �T� Class (338, 1451). Increase Endurance to 11,000 for both. Set Class 338 to represent 1st Group, with torpedoes: Forward: 6 x 6, Ammo 2 + 2 x 2, Ammo 1 (externals) = 14 torpedos Aft: 2 x 2, Ammo 1 (externals) = 2 torpedoes Set Class 1451 to represent 2nd/3rd Groups, with torpedoes: Forward: 6 x 6, Ammo 2 + 2 x 2, Ammo 1 (externals) = 14 torpedos Aft: 3 x 1, Ammo 1 (externals) = 3 torpedoes British �S� Class (339, 1452). Set endurance to 6000. British Porpoise and River Classes: The endurance values in Lenton are somewhat greater than those given by Herrbear and I�ve decided to keep them: Porpoise: 11,500@8 kts, 156 tons fuel Thames: 16,100@10 kts, 224 tons fuel All other values agree.

Don Bowen -> Some new US Icons (2/7/2005 9:23:46 AM)
Some new US Icons [image]local://upfiles/757/By764155561.jpg[/image]

Don Bowen -> Some new British Icons (2/7/2005 9:24:40 AM)
British and Empire [image]local://upfiles/757/Yw672790510.jpg[/image]

Don Bowen -> Some misc Allied Icons (2/7/2005 9:25:42 AM)
Dutch, Philippine, Norway [image]local://upfiles/757/Ge948808271.jpg[/image]

Don Bowen -> More Allied Icons (2/7/2005 9:26:56 AM)
Some older icons [image]local://upfiles/757/Fd920504743.jpg[/image]

Don Bowen -> Still more Allied Icons (2/7/2005 9:27:36 AM)
The last group [image]local://upfiles/757/Nl288172894.jpg[/image]

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Still more Allied Icons (2/7/2005 6:01:32 PM)
Wow! Looking good. I think Abdiel MLs might be a little small. Is it in scale?

Don Bowen -> RE: Still more Allied Icons (2/7/2005 6:23:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker Wow! Looking good. I think Abdiel MLs might be a little small. Is it in scale? Hum - You may be right. Abdiel is 400 feet, the Taney next to her is 308. Subchaser did this icon and he noticed size problems in some of the original icons. He and I both adjusted scale by finding an existing icon for a ship of approximately the same size and "shinking to fit". However, it will have to do for now. This is something we can come back to later and there are lots of other things to work on. Don

Don Bowen -> Dutch Icons (2/7/2005 6:42:07 PM)
New artwork for Dutch ships by janushm. Top to bottom: Java (original left, new right) Jan Van Amstel (original left, new right) K-XIV (original left, new right) New Coast Defense Ship Soerabaja and Gunboat/Seaplane Tender Valk [image]local://upfiles/757/Eb867687971.jpg[/image]

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