WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (Full Version)

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Danny Boy -> WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/19/2005 1:34:25 PM)

Just started the long campaign playing as 'The Hun', thought I'd go back to where all the 'fun' started.

September 1939, advance vs Poland is the first battle, got a 3400 pt core with 650 pt support. I have 6 88's with transport and some of the new PzIII's. I am dug in on a ridge line and am inviting the Poles towards my lines, with the VH's already taken by me (apart from 4 in their rear area). To my surprise, far from the turkey shoot I was expecting, My 88's and PzIII's are very inaccurate (we have been in static positions for over 4 turns) and the armour on the Poles vehicles is not that bad, and their guns are far more accurate. And the PzII's that I have, have to be very close in to do any damage with the 20mm cannon.

I haven't opted for 'elite' units to start with as I wanted to see my units grow...but I have to say that I have been very surprised at the lack of effectiveness shown by the guns and their crews. I knew that the Poles would be very tenacious, brave and quite hardy...but so far this is definitely not what I expected.

Anyone shed any light on this?

Cheers!



Marten -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/19/2005 2:42:31 PM)

don't mess with us! [:-] [:D]
7TP was good tank in 1939, it was able to fight 1 on 1 with german tanks. TKS was rather weak infantry support/recon vehicle, but one of them armed with 20mm cannon destroyed 10 german Pz35(t) in two days battle (18-19 sept. 1939). and there was no cavalery charges against german tanks, it was german propaganda at first place (to show weakness of polish army), and later polish propaganda (because they thought it's funky).



Poopyhead -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/19/2005 4:50:24 PM)

Six 88's! I started with 37 mm Flak and 15 cm SIG's. The SIG has splash damage, is murder on those hordes of infantry that the AI loves and have a decent penetration (I think it is 51). And don't forget a few HEAT rounds with over 180 penetration! They are also much cheaper, so you can get more of them. Some of the armored cars are just as good against the Poles as Pz II's and again save you points for more stuff. A big help for me was getting Hungarian 14 cm mortars as support. I upgraded my core 81's to them after the first battle. I never give the AI an inch.



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/19/2005 5:57:35 PM)

Hi guys,

Marten, as a Brit of course I would never underestimate the Poles...it was the 'game' that I was underestimating[;)]

Arch, I originally wanted SIG's but they were'nt available on my roster?![&:] I remember from my old playing days, very effective early on. However, none of this changes the fact that my crews are crap! Take your point about the AC's...I think I'll see what the overall outcome is and then see if I can fudge things around a bit. Are the SIG's available Sept '39?...Oh yeah, no air supt available either.

Cheers!



Poopyhead -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/19/2005 6:31:28 PM)

SIG's should always be in the mix. I think you have to click or unclick rarity. Rarity was meant to add difficulty, but you just end up with silly situations (sorry, no trucks this time.). The Germans only start with average experience, so hang in there!

P.S. I do like your battle plan. I also set up an ambush in front of the three middle VH's during an advance. After all, it's an advance, not a stampede. It's not what you can take that counts, it's what you can hold.



Marten -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 9:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Danny Boy
Marten, as a Brit of course I would never underestimate the Poles...it was the 'game' that I was underestimating[;)]


oh, I know, I know... the first few battles during german long campaign are easy (or, as you pointed it: "not always easy") - KK&D Poland, Belgium and France...



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 1:09:08 PM)

OK Marten,

Played some more last night as a test before starting the long campaign again[:)] And it seems that unless you use ambush tactics or have a vastly superior numerical force you can't win a head on fight...or rather, you can, but with horrendous losses to your core. Again, very accurate Polish fire even when on the move!

Checked again on the sIG front, the only ones that are available are non self propelled....Now I need to make sure I can position them with good fields of fire...roll on tonight!

Cheers!



Marten -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 1:21:49 PM)

godspeed! [;)]



Buggsy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 3:05:30 PM)

What is so special about SIG artillery? I find it to be lousy guns. What do SIGS do? In panzer General II the artillery provides covering fire until it runs out of ammo, but does that mean in this game it always 'OPPORTUNITY FIRES'?



KNomad -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 4:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buggsy

What is so special about SIG artillery?


Well - nothing other than that 150mm gun.
It does have great splash damage however.

Unfortunately, it suffers from a low round load-out and poor mobility, limiting it's usefullness in attacking situations. In a sustained attack, it needs to have an ammo supply nearby. As far as Op Fire - check the firecontrol value of the unit. It's probably not better than a 3, not great, but not bad either.



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 4:31:08 PM)

Buggsy,

If you can use the sIG's with direct fire, they can be a v. powerful weapon against infantry, and good for suppressing other units. However, I have only used self propelled versions previously which gives a degree of flexibility to how you use them. I now think that they aren't available until early 1941. The towed version must therefore be sighted well in order to achieve any merit. As you quite rightly point out, indirect fire from o/b rty is usually the norm....but with the 150mm sIG's you effectively have no delay...and some AP?

Early war they should be very effective.

Cheers!

Buggsy, I've just sussed that you are playing the same campaign as me...how's it going? How big is your core? Any outstanding units or tactics?



Poopyhead -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 4:47:37 PM)

Sorry for the confusion. I meant the artillery piece SIG 33 (German for heavy infantry gun 1933, I believe), not the self propelled gun of the same name. The gun's specialty is that it is cheaper than an 88, has good penetration with the HE round, great penetration with the HEAT rounds and slaughters infantry. A good, all purpose, direct fire gun to start the long campaign. I think I started using them after I read a post by Yamashita.



robot -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 6:56:37 PM)

I started my long against the poles with a lot of PZIb tanks. They slaughter those heavy infantry concentrations of the poles in the early years. There MG is a killer of men wholesale style. Later you can upgrade to the heavier tanks. Such as the PVC close support.



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 7:43:54 PM)

Ray,

Pz1b's...you are a braver man than I!

I understand what a lot of you are getting at with regard to purchasing a lot of cheaper units at the start of a long campaign, but............

.....My argument would be that you will get so many more of these units destroyed early on, without enough repair points to repair them all, that you end up with a force of comlpetely mixed up strengths. You will never be able to upgrade all the Pz1b's to PzIII's...let alone upgrading to Stug's, PzIV's, Panthers or Tigers as there will never be enough points. you will surely end up with a 1944 force of some ancient Pz1b's, Pz III's, IV's etc, so when the Brits, Yanks and Russkis all end up with real cat killers...you end up as fodder? I'm just thinking on the hoof here and would welcome any comments[:)]

Nearly time for home...and more death and destruction!

Cheers!



Poopyhead -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/20/2005 8:49:50 PM)

I have only fought ten battles in the long campaign so far, nine DV's and a marginal. In three of the battles, I took no casualties at all, so replacements haven't been a problem. I use the 14 cm Hungarian mortars and pound my opponent into dog food, while my mobile units blitz through their shattered positions. Air support (I prefer Me 110's to Stukas), when available, is devastating. My Polish campaign consisted of two assaults against huge Polish infantry entrenchments that resembled the First Wold War. I smoked the point of attack, broke through the mines on a narrow front, outflanked the Poles and took all the VH's before they could react. They counter-attacked, but were not organized and that was that. I never use off board artillery, other than aircraft. The 14 cm mortars are excellent and make a big difference.



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/21/2005 1:55:12 PM)

OK Arch,

I have revised my plans and will give a detailed account after the weekend (I know that I am going to have at least 12 hours of uninterrupted playtime[:)] as my better half and the kids are going to a pantomime). Time to check out the Hungarian OOB methinks!

I haven't been able to open the campaign with anything other than an advance so far (3 starts) so haven't had a chance to check out air support, but I will take on board your comments.

Cheers!



Poopyhead -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/21/2005 4:23:16 PM)

Sounds great! The Czech OOB also has some German equipment that they had no where else to put, namely an ammo carrier, something 252 LGM, that is armored like a HT, has a machinegun and can carry five men. Perfect to accompany those breakthrough pincers!
Also, I'm up to 10 DV's and the marginal now. I've lost a total of 920 men, 2 guns, 57 soft vehicles and 23 AFV's (mostly the type 222 armored car). I go with the 222 until I can upgrade to Pz IIIh, which usually happens after the second battle in the desert. Best of luck!



KG Erwin -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/21/2005 11:44:34 PM)

Hey, don't forget some of the special units in the Norway OOB. Here, we have a GE Motorcycle Transport Unit (131) that you can mount troops on, just like a truck or halftrack. I asked for this, so Rockin Harry put it in as a scenario-designer unit. This way, you can create Motorcycle Rifle Squads to be used in the way they were actually deployed. These guys didn't fight sitting on a motorcycle. To use these in the game, you gotta utilize the OOB editor, as they are available in 1949.

I liked this idea, so if you play against the AI only, you could modify the existing German OOB by plugging these Motorcycle units into it. In other words, a 1939-41 Motorcycle Rifle Platoon would have three Rifle Squads plus three Motorcycle transport units. Same goes for the Motorcycle MG units. Three MG34s on three MC transports.

The drawbacks: motorcycles are fragile, so you would face the prospect of your Rifle Squads automatically dismounting once they come under fire, same as any other mounted troops. No quick getaways. To me, this is more realistic, but this is why it was left as an option, and not incorporated into the German OOB.



Charles2222 -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/22/2005 3:45:23 AM)

Oh man. I haven't played this game in quite a while. And though it's not been as long away from playing SPWW2, I haven't been near it for at least 2-3 months (waiting on their promised Windows version). Having said that, though I don't specifically recall my SPWAW campaigning days as Gerry, I can tell you that with SPWW2 I always just bought two 88's, and even then I didn't use them in the early battles primarily for the reason of fear of losing them when their experience wasn't terribly high, and for just using them in isolated spots.

Over time, I actually found I played better when using the 88's as a last ditch effort, instead of the more common use them to burst every tank strategy.

The key to 88 success for me, was that I isolated them in such a way that they would have one of those fairly lengthy views, which were VERY narrow, which of course usually meant placing them off a hill. The idea was not only to not lose them early on, but for them to be devastating when they were used (save them for the USSR T34's). Having several 88's on a hill invites two things 1) bombardment 2) direct fire from tanks. It don't take that many shots from tanks to render the 88 at least suppressed enough to where it's fairly useless, but even so the greater danger is just plain losing the men. If I'm campaigning I don't want to lose the best weapon I have to overuse and exposure.

Really, basically not using the 88 taught me just how good the other weapons were, and also how important the suppression war is. The main lesson in suppression war is to suppress the enemy's best units to very little ability to fire (their best offensive threat that is). If when faced with 110 S35's in France like I was once, and though the battle is going better than you expected, you're still losing ground (but no VH's yet - wow, it just occurred to me that I've been away from SP long enough that I don't remember if VH is the correct term or not[;)] - As Linus Van Pelt once said: "Oh great CL, where are you?"). In that game (SPWAW) the French surrendered just after the 88's opened up on one of those narrow passages, but they only had a couple of units to claim to that point. The losses to the French were just strong enough by the other units to make them run away.

The other rule about suppressing, such as when the best enemy unit is sporting 110 of them or so, is to concentrate on just three or four of them. You want to knock them so silly with suppression that they will be retreating very likely for 3-4 turns (you just have to guess when you've shot them to 99 suppression and then stop) if not off the board entirely. It can make life pretty tough for easily surredering nations when you light up or damage a few of their best, and then they have to deal with your infantry too[:D].



Charles2222 -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/22/2005 3:59:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: robot

I started my long against the poles with a lot of PZIb tanks. They slaughter those heavy infantry concentrations of the poles in the early years. There MG is a killer of men wholesale style. Later you can upgrade to the heavier tanks. Such as the PVC close support.


Yup, you got it right, those things are devastating. Actually, had it not been for their presence, I think I usually had between 1-2 platoons of them, the Poles would probably be taking VH's from me just because I only had so many MG's and HE to take them out with those large infantry units. Though their accuracy is cut down when using them that way, the PZIB is the perfect example for using a very vulnerable unit via shoot-n-scoot tactics, which of course means that if you use them on hill at all they better be able to hide behind a hill somewhere. It almost seems mythical over my time on the SPWAW forum on just how shocked people appeared to be that someone playing the Gerries would cherish them so much. Methinks they must have never faced those things when being used properly.

If they get SPWW2 to work for Windows, do you think you'll ever give that a try robot? Hopefull CL will be out by then (yeah right).



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/24/2005 2:40:19 PM)

)OK

Kept the same core, but the map changed....has worked out being harder to deploy than I had wished, but so far (turn 15 out of 30) I have probably destroyed upwards of 35 AFV's to the sole loss of one halftrack, 2 scout units and 5 scout cars (ran straight into their artillery base in rear lines[sm=crazy.gif])

I devided my force into 3 combat groups set about 10 hexes away from the central 3 clusters of VH's. I am deployed on my side of the VH's so none have been taken yet. Visability is 22 hexes and all my 88's are providing cover for all forward units. All dug in (supposed to be an advance...but it is the AI after all![;)] with interlocking fields of fire everywhere. It would appear that the Poles split into two main spearheads with A/C's up front followed by heavier armour. About 5 or 6 AFV's still visible but most of the main infantry advance seems to be wavering under intense 155mm rty that I pre zeroed on likely points of advance.

Should finish off tonight....let's just see what's in store, let's not forget that I only hold my own 4 VH's at the moment!

Cheers!



Danny Boy -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/25/2005 5:38:15 PM)

Well that's it

First successfull sortie in Poland over. The setting was Krakow, and I'm pleased to say, my plan worked a treat[:)]

A decisive victory for the loss of 2 halftracks, 4 scout groups, 8 Stoewers and 1 Pz38t.

In the end, I managed to get about 3 platoons of (mixed) P38t's and Pz1Vc's into their rear area. Their armour had been completely annihalated by now, and even though the Polish cavalry, Ulans and regular troops were very tenacious (they were attacking all the while I pushed them back, not just opfire) I effectively had them surrounded and some mighty good stats for some of my troops ensued. Hopefully this will mean I can now go on to win the war in the East, launch operation Sealion, get my secret weapons working and Nuke the Yanks while joining up with my Jap chums in the East....World Domination as it's supposed to be[sm=00000622.gif]

...Ooops sorry guys...forgot that most of you are the enemy!

Cheers!



Poopyhead -> RE: WWII Long Campaign...surprising Poles! (1/25/2005 6:28:23 PM)

Well, you're off to a good start. Just another fifty Decisive Victories in the campaign to go! After my tenth battle, in desperation I upgraded my artillery transport to Wurfrahmen and I still have 2900 points left over. I hope you don't run out of things to upgrade. Auf Wieder Bye Bye, Herr Oberst.



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