RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (Full Version)

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Adam Parker -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/10/2005 4:02:20 AM)

Don't touch Glantz's "When Titans Clashed" - its maps are useless and see my review at Amazon for more [;)]

Overy's "Russia's War" gives a much better and readable introduction, then look for some of Glantz's more esoteric texts such as his "Stumbling Colossus" which debates the myth of revisionists that Stalin planned to invade Germany in 1941 - basically a doctrine/TO&E/OOB treatment of the Soviet Military capability from the 1930's - 1941. Glantz is also (if not already) about to publish a follow up study of the Soviet Military from 1942-43.

A very nice text is "Hitler's Nemesis" by Walter Dunn 1994 which discusses the birth and operations of the WW2 Soviet Military and its adaption to the Wehrmacht covering the entire war in some intimate detail.

Then to really get into the dust and mud, you can't beat the entertainment value of texts such a Paul Carell's "Scorched Earth" and Craig's "Stalingrad". Though there are some fine new treatments of individual campaigns releasing too.

Adam.

(Deleted ref to Normandy book as o/t!)



rhondabrwn -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/10/2005 4:05:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Perhaps we should start a thread to discuss the "ultimate Military History bookshelf collection"?

Anyone up for that mental exercise?


A list like this exists over at the Depot, but I'd be happy to help put one together over here. It's times like this that I regret giving up mod status, as it would be a great sticky thread. I've got several titles that I'd suggest for the Pacific Theater. If you want to start it, Rhonda, be my guest. [:)]


I have a research paper due tomorrow at 9:30 am... perhaps on Friday [;)]



IronDuke_slith -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/10/2005 11:50:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Don't touch Glantz's "When Titans Clashed" - its maps are useless and see my review at Amazon for more [;)]


I'll go and take a look at your review, I quite enjoyed this book. As a one volume study of the Military aspects, I thought it was peerless. Overy was interesting but quite thin. The maps weren't great in Titans, but they were good enough to follow I felt.

quote:

Overy's "Russia's War" gives a much better and readable introduction, then look for some of Glantz's more esoteric texts such as his "Stumbling Colossus" which debates the myth of revisionists that Stalin planned to invade Germany in 1941 - basically a doctrine/TO&E/OOB treatment of the Soviet Military capability from the 1930's - 1941. Glantz is also (if not already) about to publish a follow up study of the Soviet Military from 1942-43.


I've came across this theory and found it more than a myth, but not totally convincing. It does do a neat job of explaining Soviet dispositions in June 1941 and some of Stalin's myopia. Whilst it can't be said the Soviets were on the verge of invading, it might be said they were making preparations.

quote:

A very nice text is "Hitler's Nemesis" by Walter Dunn 1994 which discusses the birth and operations of the WW2 Soviet Military and its adaption to the Wehrmacht covering the entire war in some intimate detail.


Haven't read this. I shall look it up.

quote:

Then to really get into the dust and mud, you can't beat the entertainment value of texts such a Paul Carell's "Scorched Earth" and Craig's "Stalingrad". Though there are some fine new treatments of individual campaigns releasing too.


I thought Glantz and House's Kursk was peerless in this respect.

Re Neillands and Normandy (you deleted the comments but I can't resist a reply) I stopped reading this after about three chapters. I had misgivings during the introduction. He seemed less intent on writing a military history of the campaign and more intent on elavating Montgomery (without really understanding what was driving him) and having an occasionally condescending pop at the Americans at each and every juncture. Had he let the facts do his talking and spent less time spelling it all out he may have made a point, but as it was...

D'Este and Hasting's accounts remain the best general studies.

Regards,
IronDuke


Adam.

(Deleted ref to Normandy book as o/t!)



KG Erwin -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/11/2005 12:19:29 AM)

This one isn't well-known, but for the 1941-42 period, I can recommend Robert J. Kershaw's "War Without Garlands". Good tactical info, useful for fans of SPWaW and Schwerpunkt's Russo-German War.

Someone else mentioned "Stumbling Colossus", by David Glantz, and if you want the latest research on the state of the Red Army in 1941, this is a great reference.

I have both of these books, and several others mentioned in this thread. Special mention must be given to the late John Erickson, who began the process of opening up the Soviet archives with 1975's "The Road to Stalingrad". Unfortunately, it is a difficult read, as it assumes some prior knowledge of the Russian military establishment, but the Professor laid much of the groundwork for subsequent researchers to build upon. [&o]



Adam Parker -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/11/2005 3:37:21 AM)

Iron Duke and KG here is the new Glantz book I was refering to as a follow on to "Stumbling Colossus":

"Colossus Reborn: The Red Army at War, 1941-1943". Seems to be out now.

Should be a facinating read covering the most difficult period the Soviets faced in rebuilding their forces, finding cadre and then learning from some severe mistakes until the generation of their steam roller tactics post Kursk.

Iron Duke, the worst thing I found in Glantz's "Titans" was its mixing of Front names in some sections due to poor proof reading. It's maps were way too general for the operational coverage the book tried to convey. And this is a shame as Glantz is best known if anything, for his maps. If Glantz has a real flaw in his general writing however, it is simply repetition.

As for Neillands - you'll see I refered to him here (before the edit) as Robert when he is Robin! Anyway folks the book in question is "The Battle For Normandy 1944" and if Glantz repeats himself, Neillands just forgets! He'll start a sentence and by the end of the book you'll still be looking for its second half. Very frustrating editing and writing.

As for Dunn, you'll be interested to see that his efforts were a precursor to those of Glantz - and inspiration for Glantz in fact.

Adam.

(Edit - darn typo's [;)] )



KG Erwin -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/11/2005 4:23:12 AM)

Ok, guys, so we have some great information being presented in recent years, but two major problems surface:

1. Poor writing skills
2. Poor editing

Neither of these problems bode well for the future of new military history
books, and this tells me that aspiring writers should look to this genre and pump fresh blood into it.



Adam Parker -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/11/2005 4:47:14 AM)

Did I tell you that I once bought "How to do Everything with Photoshop CS" published by McGraw Hill and got so frustrated that I rang their world head office and arranged to post-retail proof read the garbage I had just bought!

50+ typos and glitches later in such a small book, I'd earned a couple of hundred dollars in titles from their stable as thanks for the effort. No way fair compensation I tell ya [:D]

Then I bought their Illustrator book and on one of the first pages saw a nice chart calling the "Warp" tool "Wrap".

"Crap" would have made me feel better [;)]



KG Erwin -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/11/2005 5:01:20 AM)

Adam, apart from typo glitches, I have a copy of Bryan Fugate's "Operation Barbarossa", first edition 1984, that has several pages out of order. I just hand-wrote the corrections at the top of the pages. I just imagined it was like reading a freakin' newspaper or magazine (cont on page xx or whatever). When one buys a hard-cover book, one could at least expect the pages to be in order. [:@]



KG Erwin -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/11/2005 5:07:25 AM)

On the flip-side, though, I found my paperback copy of Eugene B. Sledge's "With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa" to be beautifully done, with much care taken for the photos, drawings and maps to be faithfully reproduced.

(This is for the new thread on "The Ultimate Military History Library").



Hartley -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/12/2005 8:04:38 PM)

You can find all the EF maps you even wanted on the internet anyways.

Too bad a lot of them are in cyrillic, though.



IronDuke_slith -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/13/2005 7:09:09 PM)

I wouldn't be too critical re editing. All of these manuscripts should be seen by a proofreader and editor before going to the publishers so if there are typos, then there is someone else to blame.

I accept it doesn't impress to see the sorts of errors you describe, but I find them much less disturbing than say errors in fact, which turn me right off any text, I'm afraid.

Also, re writing skills, Glantz may not be an Anthony Beevor or Max Hastings, but then neither was Erickson. However, both men had put in countless hours of research into previously unknown and innaccessible archives. I'll take them warts and all if the alternative is ignorance.

Regards,
IronDuke



Adam Parker -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/14/2005 7:53:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke
Also, re writing skills, Glantz may not be an Anthony Beevor or Max Hastings, but then neither was Erickson. However, both men had put in countless hours of research into previously unknown and innaccessible archives. I'll take them warts and all if the alternative is ignorance.

Regards,
IronDuke


The thing about all those who've been through the Soviet's archives is that each admits that none has yet found the final story of their various pursuits. There are still futher archives to wrench open from the governments. And due to the Cold War, many may never be.

I always laugh regarding how impressed William Shirer's introduction to "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" once made me, when he wrote akin: "Most historians frown on writing history until at least the passage of a century but in the case of the Third Reich so much has been revealled at its collapse that the definitive history may now be written".

Adam.



SemperAugustus -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/14/2005 8:34:06 AM)

The books on the war in China and against Japan are usually the worst when it comes to typos, e.g. names not transcribed consistently, misspellt or town names anachronistic. Maps of the USSR suffer from it a bit too but I suppose its difficult to keep track of all the town name changes as people fall in and out of favour.

So no one has read the Ziemke books then?



Hartley -> RE: Need a good Eastern Front book (2/14/2005 7:19:12 PM)

Who was the first historian to discover the existance of Operation Mars ?



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