CV TF Compisition (allied)

CV TF Compisition (allied) (Full Version)

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The Gnome -> CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:18:27 PM)
Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now. Right now I'm broken down into: 2 CV 1 CVL 2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores) 2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns) 1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland) 7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols) I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed. Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better?

freeboy -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:23:11 PM)
flak looks good, I only wonder about your cap, much more important

Bradley7735 -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:27:12 PM)
I'd put more DD's in there. 7 doesn't seem like much. I'd go with 10 to protect 3 carriers and 5 cruisers.

The Gnome -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:28:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy flak looks good, I only wonder about your cap, much more important I usually operate them together for mutual CAP support. I do tend to sweat bullets if they get seperated, and an air attack comes in though! Is the CV coordination penalty for the number of carriers in the same hex, or the same TF? Also, when operating in dangerous waters I normally run at 50-70% cap - depending on my strike mission targets of course.

The Gnome -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:29:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bradley7735 I'd put more DD's in there. 7 doesn't seem like much. I'd go with 10 to protect 3 carriers and 5 cruisers. I thought there was a penalty for operating more than 15 ships in a TF? I'm at work and manualess right now!

freeboy -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:30:48 PM)
15 for Flak, and its per tf as best I understand on the penelty

The Gnome -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:33:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freeboy 15 for Flak, and its per tf as best I understand on the penelty Ok, good catch... I thought it was 20 for the cap penalty, lol - whoops! Isn't there a coordination penalty for multiple ships? Or is that just for Surface Combat?

Rob322 -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:34:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: The Gnome quote: ORIGINAL: Bradley7735 I'd put more DD's in there. 7 doesn't seem like much. I'd go with 10 to protect 3 carriers and 5 cruisers. I thought there was a penalty for operating more than 15 ships in a TF? I'm at work and manualess right now! There is, don't know how bad it is though (at work too) sometimes I have added 1 or 2 more ships over 15 and it hasn't seemed to hurt much but typically I don't (rather create more TF's) I tend to do CAP at around 70% but I generally have the same proportions you have although the cruisers might not be so balanced. Your BB's should be bombarding stuff, at least until you get the Iowa's which can keep up.

mc3744 -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:35:50 PM)
I'm quite sure the >15 penalty applies to surface engagements only. I bet you don't want to engage a CV TF, do you? [:D] They must have better things to do than shooting their guns [;)]

The Gnome -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:36:23 PM)
I tend to have a Surface Combat TF with a couple of SoDaks and North Carolinas following the CV's as well.... just in case I stumble upon a night fight.

Nikademus -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:43:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mc3744 I'm quite sure the >15 penalty applies to surface engagements only. it doesn't. Which isn't to say it isn't worth putting that 16th+ ship in the TF, you just have a diminshing returns effect. My normal CV TF assuming available assets is around: 2 CV/3 CV/2 CV + 1 CVL/ 2 CV + 2 CVL 4 CA 2 CLAA or CL 10-12 DD (if avail a Fast BB or two might replace 1 or 2 of the CA) The high DD number is as much to provide a good ASW/ anti surface screen as AA. The latter of course is extremely unlikely but ya never know either [X(]

ckk -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:55:48 PM)
a fast BB not only supplies a lot of flak but will draw almost as much attention as a flattop and the smaller bombs that will take a carrier out of action will bounce off a BB[:'(]

Nikademus -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/14/2005 11:57:30 PM)
Being a BB purist...i actually hate saddling my precious few fast BB's to the CV TF's but yeah, one cant deny their AA punch is a vital contribution. If i have enough CLAA's around i'll try to keep a few fast BB's seperate to conduct more manly type operations vs. sheparding a bunch of girlie men flyboys. [:'(]

The Gnome -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 12:00:50 AM)
By fast BB's do you mean the Iowa's exclusively? I'm about to get my first one and can't wait! :D

Nikademus -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 12:02:40 AM)
no, was also including the NC and SoDak's as well. They really put some meat into my potato surface TF's. The elder slow BB's are just that..too slow to risk accept in areas where you pray there is not serious air opposition.

Tom Hunter -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 12:09:26 AM)
I just had my whole R class fleet torpedoed by Blackwatch in the Macassar straight. The BBs attract attention and the old slow ones can't dodge the torpedos. By the way there were never many Betties and Nells, they came without escort and they flew right through the Fulmars flying CAP. On the bright side Blackwatch did not have enough stuff to actually sink them, and my invasion is ashore so its ok. I

Grotius -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 1:03:33 AM)
quote: Your BB's should be bombarding stuff Do BBs bombard better than CAs in WITP? I thought someone on this board was suggesting that CAs actually perform better (in the game).

The Dude -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 1:04:40 AM)
My Ideal Allied TF 2 Essex 2 Independence 2 fast BB 2 CA (SF or Baltimore) 4 CLs (Cleveland) 2 CLAA (I find these overated so i leave these with invasion CVE TFs 8-12 Fletchers, Sumners[:D], Gearings

rogueusmc -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:04:05 AM)
My CV TF composition is as follows: 1 CV 2 CAs or CLAAs for AA 4 DDs for ASW. I like to put two of these together and add another DD to keep with the 15 ship rule. I like to have a dedicated ASW TF follow it with a 6 ship limit (selfimposed). If I need more CV punch, I duplicate the TF and have one follow the other.

Tristanjohn -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:24:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: The Gnome Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now. Right now I'm broken down into: 2 CV 1 CVL 2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores) 2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns) 1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland) 7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols) I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed. Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better? Because of the rules set re air coordination it's smart (and just happens to represent Allied CV operational doctrine until later in the war) to use your CV assets in smaller TFs, each with a single CV, then have all these CV TFs sail together in the same hex. This allows all the collective flak in the hex to contribute to air defense and makes it likely no more than a couple of your precious CVs will come under attack from any given enemy CV TF or land-based air strike--and with luck only one of your CVs will come under attack. All of your AA cruisers should be in attendance, as well as your best AA-rated BB/CA/CL/DDs. spread out amongst the various CV TFs. To ensure this mob stays together, if possible include a ship that is at least a knot slower than the others and stick it in any CV TF, then order that CV TF lead the way, with the other TFs following along behind (this to ensure your lead CV TF doesn't inadvertently outpace the TFs in train). I don't view speed as being the most important consideration in operations of this kind. The most important consideration is aircraft carrier safety! By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. Meanwhile, by including these newer BBs in the mix you're adding a wealth of AA protection to your CVs, which are, after all, your most important assets. Also, as mentioned above, BBs act as bomb/torpedo magnets during battles, thus saving your CVs from that much more enemy attention. In a word, fast BBs in your mix can make the critical difference between winning and losing an air battle at sea. The only drawback to this arrangement involves the rule re carrier reaction to enemy carriers. Unfortunately, these indivudual CV TFs will all react differently (i.e. it could be one or more will choose not to react, perhaps leaving then one or more CV TFs exposed to enemy reprisal alone). That's a pity, and yet another game mechanic which begs for review, but as long as that rule's in there it has to be dealt with, and so if I were you I'd set reaction to "0" for all your CV TFs. This will effectively guard against the worst case, though it might mean your carriers will not be close enough to strike back at your longer-armed enemy--they probably will be, assuming you know where the enemy CVs are and issue your course orders accordingly, but they might not. Anyway, it's your fleet and the choice is always yours. Be creative if you want. [:)]

pompack -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:34:07 AM)
In 42: 1 CV 1 CLAA 2 CL 5 DD (up to 8 DD if there are any to spare (in 42? get real!)) In early 43: 1 CV 1 CVL 1 CLAA 2 CL 1 CA 8 DD In 44 (late 43 if I have to because of lack of escorts): 2 CV or 1 CV, 2 CVL 1BB 1CLAA 3CL 8DD Remember: one Alpha strike can only sink as many carriers as are in one TF. Never put more than one CV in a TF until you have Hellcats or damn good pilots. Have multiple CTFs follow the leader, always have at least two CVs per hex.

pompack -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:38:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn quote: ORIGINAL: The Gnome Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now. Right now I'm broken down into: 2 CV 1 CVL 2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores) 2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns) 1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland) 7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols) I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed. Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better? Because of the rules set re air coordination it's smart (and just happens to represent Allied CV operational doctrine until later in the war) to use your CV assets in smaller TFs, each with a single CV, then have all these CV TFs sail together in the same hex. This allows all the collective flak in the hex to contribute to air defense and makes it likely no more than a couple of your precious CVs will come under attack from any given enemy CV TF or land-based air strike--and with luck only one of your CVs will come under attack. All of your AA cruisers should be in attendance, as well as your best AA-rated BB/CA/CL/DDs. spread out amongst the various CV TFs. To ensure this mob stays together, if possible include a ship that is at least a knot slower than the others and stick it in any CV TF, then order that CV TF lead the way, with the other TFs following along behind (this to ensure your lead CV TF doesn't inadvertently outpace the TFs in train). I don't view speed as being the most important consideration in operations of this kind. The most important consideration is aircraft carrier safety! By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. Meanwhile, by including these newer BBs in the mix you're adding a wealth of AA protection to your CVs, which are, after all, your most important assets. Also, as mentioned above, BBs act as bomb/torpedo magnets during battles, thus saving your CVs from that much more enemy attention. In a word, fast BBs in your mix can make the critical difference between winning and losing an air battle at sea. The only drawback to this arrangement involves the rule re carrier reaction to enemy carriers. Unfortunately, these indivudual CV TFs will all react differently (i.e. it could be one or more will choose not to react, perhaps leaving then one or more CV TFs exposed to enemy reprisal alone). That's a pity, and yet another game mechanic which begs for review, but as long as that rule's in there it has to be dealt with, and so if I were you I'd set reaction to "0" for all your CV TFs. This will effectively guard against the worst case, though it might mean your carriers will not be close enough to strike back at your longer-armed enemy--they probably will be, assuming you know where the enemy CVs are and issue your course orders accordingly, but they might not. Anyway, it's your fleet and the choice is always yours. Be creative if you want. [:)] TJ: Agree EXCEPT the flak is per TF. All the CAP in the hex will protect any TF in the hex, but the flak will only protect it's own TF.

tsimmonds -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:43:42 AM)
quote: By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. I certainly agree on this. How often do you need to move 12 hexes rather than 10 in any case? And 95% of the time all you are doing is mission speed.....

Mr.Frag -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:45:49 AM)
Cruise speed and you'll never find your aircraft not launching due to shortage of ops points. If you need to get there faster then that, you are probably too late anyways. [;)] You guys throwing a million DD's in and running around at full speed are really asking for it as the DD's will suck the fuel out of your CV's and leave you with nothing flying.

Tristanjohn -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 7:18:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pompack quote: ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn quote: ORIGINAL: The Gnome Hi All, I'm looking for a good CV TF compisition for the allies. I have the bulk of my Yorktowns, all the Lexingtons, and 2 Essex right now. Right now I'm broken down into: 2 CV 1 CVL 2 CA (Northhamptons or Baltimores) 2 CL (Clevelands, Helenas, or Brooklyns) 1 CLAA (Atlanta or Oakland) 7 DD (Fletchers or Bristols) I was thinking of throwing in a newer BB into the mix for more AA, but right now my fastest model is only(only?) 27-28 knots, and I don't want it to slow down the TF. It might be worth the tradeoff but for now I'm going with speed. Anyone see anything wrong, or anything that could be set up better? Because of the rules set re air coordination it's smart (and just happens to represent Allied CV operational doctrine until later in the war) to use your CV assets in smaller TFs, each with a single CV, then have all these CV TFs sail together in the same hex. This allows all the collective flak in the hex to contribute to air defense and makes it likely no more than a couple of your precious CVs will come under attack from any given enemy CV TF or land-based air strike--and with luck only one of your CVs will come under attack. All of your AA cruisers should be in attendance, as well as your best AA-rated BB/CA/CL/DDs. spread out amongst the various CV TFs. To ensure this mob stays together, if possible include a ship that is at least a knot slower than the others and stick it in any CV TF, then order that CV TF lead the way, with the other TFs following along behind (this to ensure your lead CV TF doesn't inadvertently outpace the TFs in train). I don't view speed as being the most important consideration in operations of this kind. The most important consideration is aircraft carrier safety! By including the North Carolina/South Dakota-class BBs you're only going to drop from 6/6 to 5/5, and when you think about it that 6/6 would likely be a 5/5 soon anyway just from normal wear and tear to one of your escorting ships. By starting out as 5/5 you're merely anticipating this inevitability. Meanwhile, by including these newer BBs in the mix you're adding a wealth of AA protection to your CVs, which are, after all, your most important assets. Also, as mentioned above, BBs act as bomb/torpedo magnets during battles, thus saving your CVs from that much more enemy attention. In a word, fast BBs in your mix can make the critical difference between winning and losing an air battle at sea. The only drawback to this arrangement involves the rule re carrier reaction to enemy carriers. Unfortunately, these indivudual CV TFs will all react differently (i.e. it could be one or more will choose not to react, perhaps leaving then one or more CV TFs exposed to enemy reprisal alone). That's a pity, and yet another game mechanic which begs for review, but as long as that rule's in there it has to be dealt with, and so if I were you I'd set reaction to "0" for all your CV TFs. This will effectively guard against the worst case, though it might mean your carriers will not be close enough to strike back at your longer-armed enemy--they probably will be, assuming you know where the enemy CVs are and issue your course orders accordingly, but they might not. Anyway, it's your fleet and the choice is always yours. Be creative if you want. [:)] TJ: Agree EXCEPT the flak is per TF. All the CAP in the hex will protect any TF in the hex, but the flak will only protect it's own TF. Well, then I just learned something. That's been changed since UV. Do you have a manual page I can go to for that?

Yamato hugger -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 9:08:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag Cruise speed and you'll never find your aircraft not launching due to shortage of ops points. If you need to get there faster then that, you are probably too late anyways. [;)] You guys throwing a million DD's in and running around at full speed are really asking for it as the DD's will suck the fuel out of your CV's and leave you with nothing flying. I agree. I usually only have 5 or 6 DDs in my CV groups. According to Mog, only 6 are used in ASW combat anyway. Gnome, if you are looking at late war deployments, you want 3 CVs, 1 CVL, 6 DDs, and the 5 best flak boats you have that have a min speed of 30 kts. If you are looking at start of war forces, then what you have is good, except you have no CVLs, so replace that with a flak barge.

Charles2222 -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 10:24:52 AM)
Yamato hugger: quote: I agree. I usually only have 5 or 6 DDs in my CV groups. According to Mog, only 6 are used in ASW combat anyway. I don't know. I've had more than 6 in some of my ASW TF's and every single one of them 'searches' at least. I also question whether it's strictly DD's or not. My guess, of course, is that the saying is that it's no more than 6 ASW ships of any sort. I can't say I've ever had more than 6 DD's in a group though. Oh, and I can only speak from the Japanese side on this matter.

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 11:36:59 AM)
Early in the war, I keep my CVs out of harm's way until I can counter the KB Death Star with one of my own - actually two semi-Death Stars, since I group the three Yorktowns in one TF and Sara, Lady Lex and Wasp in another, with the older CAs and Brooklyn-CLs and plenty of those DDs with few torpedo tubes as escorts. I don't care about the 15-ship rule since it is only a diminishing return, not a cap-off of AA. The newer CAs and DDs with many torpedo tubes form a surface action TF (also sometimes draws off some strikes). Since Wasp is the slowest ship in the bundle, I let the other two TFs follow Wasp and consorts, so the TFs stay together (at least most of the time). When encountering KB, it usually results in a great slaughter, but I don't mind losing three CVs if I can nail most of KB in return. I only got into mid-43 so far, and my current CV-TFs usually contain two CV, two CVL, six CL/CLAAs, 10 Fletchers, following a surface action group of nex BBs.

adsoul -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 3:36:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag Cruise speed and you'll never find your aircraft not launching due to shortage of ops points. If you need to get there faster then that, you are probably too late anyways. [;)] You guys throwing a million DD's in and running around at full speed are really asking for it as the DD's will suck the fuel out of your CV's and leave you with nothing flying. Mr.Frag, IIRC (it was alot of time ago) you wrote that CV's won't ever launch a single a/c if speed is set to cruise

Mr.Frag -> RE: CV TF Compisition (allied) (4/15/2005 4:22:46 PM)
quote: Mr.Frag, IIRC (it was alot of time ago) you wrote that CV's won't ever launch a single a/c if speed is set to cruise Not that long ago, you misunderstood what I said, I was referring to fuel use if you look at the thread. CV's burn fuel at full rates when launching aircraft. [;)]

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