livin in a dream world (Full Version)

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willycube -> livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 1:57:42 AM)

This thread might not be right for this forum but what the hell! After playing WaW for a week and playing hearts of iron for several weeks, I have come to a sorry conclusion, there is no heart in these games, they are so abstract in their meanderings around the world, maybe because of the immense scope of these games you can't give it life[heart]. To the players here[older players] I am sure you remember the Avalon Hill board games[mainly 3rd Reich] and the futile attempts to put it into computer language. Talon Soft made a good computer game with decent graphics for the time, but delivered a horrible AI. The gist of the game was you could name the armored divisions like the 24th SS panzer division, and as they battled in France and later in Russia they became more powerful as they gained experience, and they were a division to be feared in the game. WHY! with all of Mr. Grigsby's talent and so many others who make games can't make 3rd Reich come alive. By the rights make the game, put a viable AI in it, charge what you wan't and put it on the market, all you players on this forum would drool at the mouth for such a game because it was so spetacular in scope, advanced 3rd Reich was one of the toughest games to learn but when you got it right it was outstanding[the board game] The game had character and an enormus heart to players who enjoy reality in their games, a challenge to these programers make a decent 3rd Reich for all of these dedicated war game players.




Dalwin -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 2:56:58 AM)

I think you are just looking at fond remembrances of your youth.

In strategic WWII games there has always been a large dose of providing your own self immersion or "heart" as you put it. You are not remembering the old games as being special because they were better. It is because at the time the whole concept was fresh and new to you.

I personally never liked 3rd Reich in any of its forms. I thought the whole franchise stunk, but I can still relate to that magic.

For me it was games like SPI's War in Europe. In hind sight if you go back to these games, they really were not better games. WaW is a fine game in need of a few minor tweaks. HOI2 will be an excellent game after some major AI revisions. The same amount of magic and immersion into the WWII experience can be had through these titles as was available through the old boardgames.




HardRock -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 4:00:33 AM)

Much of the old remembrance is true. It was good when you were young but....

Still...I think he's right. At 59 I still play 3R PBEM.

I would pay $300 for a game of that caliber.

Commercialism...more things to do with a computer...I dunno..I've given up...Except maybe on a couple of the boardgames now being converted.

Heart...art...soul...that's what he's talking about and he's right.




willycube -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 4:53:43 AM)

Thank you Dalwin and Hardrock, Dalwin I think this game is very good for what it is, as for tweaking, what would you tweak? [would like to know] You mentioned the franchise of 3rd Reich, did you mean the board game too, I don't think 3rd Reich could be played on a massive scale as WaW is played, but I like the idea of units improving as they were victorious in battles, with strategic command 2 on the horizon it might be a better game and with some players who have the ability to mod things they just might be able to create a pacific theatre of war. Hardrock I dont know if I would pay $300 [don't give them any ideas please] but I would pay $100 for a well done 3rd Reich. Thanks for your comments.




Paul Vebber -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 5:21:33 AM)

I guess I'm confused about the reference to 3rd Reich. I cut my wargaming teeth on that one back when it first came out.

There was no "experience" in that game and 4-6 armor was a 4-6 armor and a 3-3 inf a 3-3 inf. To me the unit capability distinctions and improvements over time invoke much more "heart" than similar board games ever did. There certainly was no "Connection" to individual units in Third Reich for me.

If a "work of gaming art" means getting to name your units and "building experience" make up for a horrible AI, I guess I don't get "art"...TO me "Art" in game design is elegant mechanics, and decision making that makes me "connect" - not with the individual units - but with the situation faced by the real world counterpart I'm emulating. TO me GGWaW succeeds dramatically in that department.

That doesn;t mean you have to like it though...[;)]

I'd love to see leaders and units gain experience - but it certainly doesn't spoil the game for me. The strategy process in this game seems to me very evocative of playing 3rd Reich.

Just proves everybody has their taste and no game is goning to please everybody.

THere is a "Cyber" version of Bruce Harpers A World at War - the current (and best in my book) incarnation of 3rd Reich and we will be publishing the "full computer version" when the AI gets added. That will be a game with a very different flavor from GG WaW - but will not have "unit experience" either.







JagdFlanker -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 5:39:40 AM)

wow, Bruce Harpers A World at War has a much different scale. advanced GGWaW sorta? $175 US to purchase the game!!

[image]local://upfiles/9586/CA1FA7C49FC047E7929EFE46A09F3D70.jpg[/image]




schury -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 5:52:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Thank you Dalwin and Hardrock, Dalwin I think this game is very good for what it is, as for tweaking, what would you tweak? [would like to know] You mentioned the franchise of 3rd Reich, did you mean the board game too, I don't think 3rd Reich could be played on a massive scale as WaW is played, but I like the idea of units improving as they were victorious in battles, with strategic command 2 on the horizon it might be a better game and with some players who have the ability to mod things they just might be able to create a pacific theatre of war. Hardrock I dont know if I would pay $300 [don't give them any ideas please] but I would pay $100 for a well done 3rd Reich. Thanks for your comments.

can i ask a silly question,what does tweak mean in you sentence?"as for tweaking, what would you tweak?"




bmodified -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 6:15:08 AM)

I don't know if GGWaW has that touch that will make an emotional connection with gamers that often defies explanation. There is an element of "good old days" nostalgia that creeps in when comparing the computer games of today with yesteryear's cardboard and paper sims, or even early computerized efforts. For many, I suspect, there are certain games that have a little emotive hook that catches the imagination, and it when it does it can be a powerful effect, and that can't all be explained away by nostalgia.

There is no chestnut more tired than "graphics do not a good game make", and it remains a cliché because it is true. Eye-popping graphics and dramatic cut scenes can't turn a sow's ear in to a silk purse, but they can enhance a solid design.

Even back in the dark ages of board wargames, the "pink panzers" of the first AH "Battle of the Bulge" were held up as good examples of bad graphics. I think GGWaW is free of such clunkers, but does it have a graphic style that suits the subject, and adds to the feel of the game? Highly subjective, for sure, but here I would say the game is merely solid, not sensational.

The Hero card and commissar execution rules of UpFront! were historically questionable at best, but they added spice without detracting greatly from the game. There are few among us UpFront! veterans who can't fondly recall Sgt Steiner saving the day with double firepower from his machinepistol.

To me, GGWaW is at its best when something happens that makes historical sense in dramatic fashion: My pure surface fleet should suffer when enemy carriers are at hand. It is at its most questionable when something dramatic happens that doesn't translate well in the game: Berlin falls, but the game shrugs its shoulders and West Germany fights on.

I think that GGWaW could have included some elements to make it more likely to hook a player in an emotional sense. Leaders, unit icons that change with tech levels, unit names, perhaps some optional rules for Kamikaze attacks or the like all could add to the feel of the game, hopefully adding spice without overpowering the main simulative course.

For me, GGWaW does a good job of giving the sense of managing the economy and strategic direction of a combatant nation during WWII. Perhaps it is asking too much of a somewhat simple game of global proportions to have little touches of operational flavor. There is an irrational side of me that would like to send Ike ashore at D-Day rather than a nameless assortment of infantry icons.

Now that GGWaW is really here, it might be easy to forget that the mere idea of a global level WWII game with some meat to it that is really playable in a long evening is a not one that has been done often, if at all. If every little extra that each gamer desired was added, the basic concept would sink under the load of "wouldn't this be cool?' features.

There is a good chance that mods and patches might change things around, but as it stands I think that GGW is perhaps a tad too conservative when it comes to such chrome. I am sure that others will point to the combat animations and say that too much attention was given to "meaningless" features already.

Time to unearth another hoary old chestnut and declare "to each, his own".






PDiFolco -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 11:25:55 AM)

I'm somewhat lost here ... I suppose the poster referred BTS Strategic Command, which looks more like Third Reich than WaW, and has unit name/experience.. Or maybe TalonSoft OAW, as he speaks of TalonSoft [&:]
But in Third Reich, either board or comp version (I own both) there never was any individualization of units, or experience system.
Anyway, in games it's rather harder to identify with 59th Army than with Lt Hill [;)], grand strategy games needs some more "personal intellectual immersion" rather like chess. In this aspect WaW makes a good job [:)]




dobeln -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 12:01:36 PM)

Pah - Clash of Steel was da bomb! :P (http://grognard.com/info1/steel.pdf)

Still, really enjoying WaW - especially the PBEM. Still, would like to see a slight toning down of research and those damn ogre tanks ;P




Espejo -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 2:10:36 PM)

[8D] Well, at the beginning I was quite critical with WAW. The scope of the game in staggering. 3 months real time in one move. Well the world changes from move to move so fast and needs a total new evalutation every time I move. compared for example eith strategic command where things build up much more slowly. I think this was the main reasons I think I had with getting a feeling what are the consequences of my actions.


But now I like it more and more. I don´t like to play against the AI it feels for me blodless but it is not because the AI is bad (which it is not!) it is because I like to play against humans with there mistakes , surprising strategies, the small talk etc. (I woukld still play TCP/IP if possible [;)])

Hopefully some things will be tweaked ... Mainly research for me. (as a game concept it may work but the high specialized research feels just wrong to me). I would like to see the animated replay although in PBEM moves, I like th sound of bullets flying, hoping that my units won´t be damaged etc.

I like the way Production is handeled. I like the historical path which the game mostly takes.

The map menus etc are fine for me. Perhaps I would like that the combat menü won´t pop up ervery time I move with cursor over hte map and would wait until I click there but these are minor disturbances . I even didn´t bother to look them if I could change it.

The manual is great and I enjoyed reading it. The price was more then fair 29,99€ I spend easily the same amount of money for a good book and already I got my money worth of entertainment from the game.

Still I hope for some small improvements through patches . Changing units with upgrades seems to be discussed already, tweaks to game balancing and many good suggestions have been made regarding research IMHO at least , I think the developers will take there time to study these and implement them if possible. If not , well teh game works an dthough far nothing seems really broken.

I really like to possibilty that up to 4 (5 ) players can participate in a game.

I think it is a good game. Great I don´t know yet but I think strategy gamers are a very hard to please crowd.

How many real time games are analyzed to death regarding the maximum punhc of every singel move and upgrade of units?




Paul Vebber -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 3:22:44 PM)

quote:

$175 US to purchase the game!!



Bruce Harpers A World at War is WORTH EVERY PENNY!!!! To me it is the definitive WW2 game. Perfect scope, perfect amount of chrome and rules that cover every significant element of the war in a playbale fashion.

and the best news is it looks like I'm actually gonna get a chance to play it multiplayer - FTF! We just need one more player to commit!




VonTed -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 3:25:47 PM)

I have to agree (somewhat at least) that I am not finding an emotional attachment to playing the game. I am enjoying it, but I don't feel involved with it. I am sure part of this is the way I've been playing....... do my turn, hit end and alt-tab to a window to surf the web while the AI plays its turns.

Unit experience would certainly give it a more personal feeling, but I doubt it would game well.




VonTed -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 3:27:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

quote:

$175 US to purchase the game!!



Bruce Harpers A World at War is WORTH EVERY PENNY!!!! To me it is the definitive WW2 game. Perfect scope, perfect amount of chrome and rules that cover every significant element of the war in a playbale fashion.

and the best news is it looks like I'm actually gonna get a chance to play it multiplayer - FTF! We just need one more player to commit!



Oh man. I'd love to sit down FTF to play one of these games. If only RI wasn't quite so far from NH. :)




aletoledo -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 7:30:46 PM)

I think it would be difficult to produce a wargame on the scale that the majority of wargamers would drool over. not only would it take numerous programmers and artists, but it would take a lot of money. Despite the fact that we all can say we'd pay $100 to see this game made, few of us would truely support the 3-4 year effort and thus only commerically viable games can be backed by a producer.




willycube -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 7:42:57 PM)

Like all of your comments, thank you, but the best comment is about Bruce Harper's A World At War coming to the computer by Matrix games [good lord I hope it won't take forever to do] It looks like 3rd Reich, keep going back to that don't I. If the AI is up to high quality standards it will probably be awsome, my problem is I play too much of MOHA on line, I am addicted and I need a great world war 2 game to get me away from MOHA, again nothing wrong with world at war I just happen to like the 3rd Reich look and playability if it is properly transfered to a computer format from the board game.




Paul Vebber -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/20/2005 8:11:28 PM)

It won't be fast - hopefully not 'foreer'...but the good news the "pbem only" version is available and imporving with every version.

Here is the link

http://www.warplanner.com/




willycube -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 3:50:39 PM)

Paul Vebber I stand corrected about 3rd Reich, there was no learning ability to the units in the computer version but I thought you could change the name of the units. The game by Talon Soft was so poorly done I think I put it on the shelf after two weeks of frustration. This Bruce Harper's world at war could be a life saver for me, I happen to like individual units or divisions of the military. Paul does Harper's game have a Pacific theatre? Is there a target date of any kind? Where could I read about it? { like game mechanics}




Cheesehead -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 5:16:15 PM)

I'm amazed that this discussion on WWII Strategic level games can go on for 17 posts without 'World in Flames' being mentioned once. It is only the greatest grand strategy game ever made IMHO [:D]. If Bruce Harper's aWaW makes it to computer before WiF, I'm sure I will buy it...but WiF on computer is the Holy Grail of grand strategy wargames...Period.




Paul Vebber -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 5:55:16 PM)

Bruce Harpers A World at War is available as a board game from GMT info at www.aworldatwar.com It covers both European and Pacific theaters. The rules are online at the site.

THere is no target date yet for the full computer game - obviously with a game of this complexity it will be some time to get all the rules incorporated and to get a the Ai to at least be a decent training aid.

i think becasue I cut my teeth on 3rd Reich, I just never got into WiF the way I got into 3rd Reich/BHAWAW. I have all the WiF games, and to some extent they remind me of the original squad leader series where the additional chrome just sort created a drag on the system. To me BHAwAW is the Advanced Squad leader of strategic games. All the pieces hang to together without feeling 'tacked on'.

I knew severel folks who feel the other way around - that WiF's specifc rules deal with operational issues much better thean BHAWAW. It takes longer to play because of it, a good thing to some, a liability to others.

I think the major difference is WiF is more an operational level game with a strategic scope. BHAWAW is focused on the strategic level.

Two different "takes" that attract and appeal to different segments of the community.

That's why I think both can co-exist in the Matrix line without competing too much with each other - just as teh board games have their loyal and enthusiastic following.

My personal choice is probably influenced in large measure by sentimentality, which i think is the point of the thread - the way some games - for reasons you can't easily put your fingers on - "capture your imagination" and others don't.

And what does it for me, may not do it for you. That is why we are looking to provide variety among our offerings. The same sort of thing is in play with Crown of Gory and Empires at Arms in the Napoleonic genre.




Cheesehead -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 8:00:13 PM)

Well said.

I just had to plug my raison d'etre [:)]




SeaMonkey -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 9:14:10 PM)

willycube,

I think what you are looking for is Strategic Command, albeit not a global game, ETO only. Allows for customizing units to certain extent, try the demo at Battlefront and be forwarned SC2 is on the horizon. Now SC2 looks to be the definitive effort in the strategic scale, IMO. An editor with the flexibility of TOAW, a fully developed Diplomatic model, and for sure detailed customization of your fighting units with leaders, tech upgrades, and experience to name a few. Oh yeah, did I mention you can name the units, leaders and give them custom traits. For your customizing needs the editor will be able to create maps, ala global scale, turn periods, climate and scripting features also abound. There's even control over the randomizing factors and talk about a user friendly interface, I have not been exposed to better. Nough said...check it out yourself, you won't go away disappointed.




Dalwin -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 9:38:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Thank you Dalwin and Hardrock, Dalwin I think this game is very good for what it is, as for tweaking, what would you tweak? [would like to know] You mentioned the franchise of 3rd Reich, did you mean the board game too, I don't think 3rd Reich could be played on a massive scale as WaW is played, but I like the idea of units improving as they were victorious in battles, with strategic command 2 on the horizon it might be a better game and with some players who have the ability to mod things they just might be able to create a pacific theatre of war. Hardrock I dont know if I would pay $300 [don't give them any ideas please] but I would pay $100 for a well done 3rd Reich. Thanks for your comments.


What woud I tweak? Mostly the same things that are being looked at now, which is why I am confident that this game is headed in a good direction.

I would make a few changes to the AI so it does a better job of things like protecting the Caucuses for instance.

I would look closely at adjusting a few of the tech world standards if overteching particular things turns into a difficult to counter PBEM strategy.

I would make a couple of minor UI canges. The popup combat bar each time the mouse passes over a contested area is unnecessarily annoying. That bar should only auto popup if you try to end the phase without completing the required combats.




sveint -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/21/2005 10:07:45 PM)

If you want to check out the best WWII board game, forget 3rd Reich or WiF, try AETO: Advanced European Theatre of Operations. APTO coming.




HardRock -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/22/2005 4:18:14 AM)

Paul,
I played some of that open beta of WIF and I know what you mean by operational even though it's a stategic wargame:)

3R is more strategic than operational.

Anyway..what's the chance of BHAWAW being released first without an AI????
I'll pay;-)

Not asking for a release date (right:) but what's a guestimate on BHAWAW? to the nearest 1/2 year :)

Ditto on WIF. A year? less..more?





Paul Vebber -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/22/2005 5:27:14 AM)

http://www.aworldatwar.com/OnlineAWAW.htm

Magnetar would have to comment on the specifics as they have a couple related projects here.

Same with WiF.

C'mon. You know what folks do when dates are bandied about [;)]





Grotius -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/22/2005 5:34:53 AM)

Is BHWaW a global sequel of sorts to Third Reich? The map sure looks like that familiar old 3R map, with BRPs and whatnot.

I also cut my teeth on 3R -- and ASL, PanzerBlitz, and about 30 other Avalon Hill games. I love those games, but I don't see as they have any more or less "soul" than games like GGWaW and WITP. Sure, I sometimes have nostalgia for the actual cardboard counters, the dice, the pretty boards. But PC games don't take 50 square feet of table space, and they're immune from cats. :P




ravinhood -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/22/2005 8:57:07 PM)

quote:

HOI2 will be an excellent game after some major AI revisions.


Lol I see the HOI2 AI suks as much as the HOI AI suked and yah know, they never fixed the origional AI to perfection. It really wasn't even sufficient before they ran of into HOI 2.




ravinhood -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/22/2005 9:06:31 PM)

quote:

quote:

$175 US to purchase the game!!



Sorry, but, NO GAME is worth $175, I don't care if it's "STAIRWAY to HEAVEN", in this case I'm NOT BUYING ONE! hehe




QBeam -> RE: livin in a dream world (4/23/2005 1:41:44 AM)

Oh, jeez, no!

Ok, I admit it, I played it more than any other strategic WWII game. But for much of that time I was highly annoyed by it's WWI-esque mechanics, and perpetually trying to design a better one. I must be a glutton for punishment. Wait, yes, that's true--I've played 6 complete games of GDW's Fire in the East/Scortched Earth. I've never met anyone outside my gaming group that's ever played more than one.




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