IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (Full Version)

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Marshall Ellis -> IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 1:48:44 AM)

Hello all:

I'm going to throw a little issue out for some feedback!

Do you think EiA would be played VIA IP?

I ask this because when I look at most IP games in the market today (most strategy wargame types), I see a game that was designed to be played in one sitting i.e. NOT to save and continue. This is not an absolute BUT definitely a trend. As you guys know, I'm not sure that most people would or could complete an EiA game in one session. This is weighing on me heavily since I simply see the majority playing at a comfortable PBEM type pace.

I realize the easy answer is "We want it" but I would like to invest my resources and time wisely in featyres that will be used so I'm aksing you to give me some good OBJECTIVE feedback...

Also, as a follow-up:

If you would not play VIA IP then tell ME why...

Thank you




Sonny -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 2:46:35 AM)

The reason I would not play IP is the same for most other games - not enough free time for a long session and difficulty of scheduling.

Can't tell you how many times I have played 1492 to 1525 in EU2. Once the session is over the liklihood of getting together again seemed to decrease dramatically. And that is with four or five players (including myself).

Additionally the time for some players to make their turn can be quite long (therefore boring for the other players). Timed turns can work but then those needing a long time per turn would not play, further reducing the field of opponents.

One large caveat though - I have never played EIA. My feelings about the game are from reading of others experiences and being told about how great the game is.



oldtimer -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 2:59:45 AM)

If adding IP play is not to difficult then I would add it. But it must be able to stop at some point and then pick up from that point at a later time. I don't ever see a group completing a game of EiA in one session.

Would I play a game using IP probably not. On the other hand it does allow for communication with an empire as they move so you can try and "influence" what they do if you feel it necessary.

Of course it you have IP play then you will need instant messaging and have IM set up so that one can communicate with a particular power secretly.

I just purchased GGWAW and been following its forum and I think you might garner a few more sales with IP play. I personally think playing without it will make this game more fun. Miscommunication, missed emails, lost emails may simulate more the problems rulers had when communicating with other powers. Who knows the email you send to Russia may had been intend for Prussia and well.....



Uncle_Joe -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 7:56:55 AM)

I think it should be added if its not going to add huge amounts of headache. Like oldtimer mentioned, it will add to your sales in the long run.

Personally, I really dont like PBEM as I get too detached every turn and it takes too long for 'reality re-orientation'. I have a solid group that will start a game and save it to play later if the option is given. We've played Civ3 and Space Empires IV via TCP/IP and neither of those is a 'finish in one session' game either.

I also concur that the lack of IP play is something of a sticking point for GGWaW as well. It seems that at the very least, there is a vocal minority wanting to see it included.



Barbu -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 9:11:02 AM)

Simply put, I don't think it's possible to complete an EIA game, even for the shortest scenario, in a single session. That said, I'd prefer to play in sessions i.e. when everyone is available at the same time with real time communication. But at the same time, while I'd prefer that option, I don't think it's realistic to expect that as a standard for a 7 players game that will drag on over several sessions no matter what, so PBEM at least as an option is an absolute must.

So in short, I'd prefer both. But for this type of game, you'll need at least PBEM.



Pippin -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 10:57:57 AM)

I take the tcp/ip over pbem any day. Pbem just can never give you the same dynamics, or ftf diplomacy aspects. When I am allied with someone, I want to WATCH him plot his moves, and offer advice, and consult with him. I also prefer to watch my opponents closely. I love it when they take back a move, re-do it, then change their minds again. It is then you realize he is uncertain of himself. It is at this point I like to send him taunt prompts, just to ensure he does the WRONG move :P

And of course, I can play 1000 games in the same amount of time it would take to play just one pbem. The whole security (anti-cheat) issue with pbem is another issue too. Unless you are using a secure dice server. But even if you get to use secure dice, how do you stop one from peeking at your units and cheating on the FOW, etc...

It is possible in tcp/ip to cheat as well, but often requires quite some advanced reverse engineering.

In any case, not ALL games need tcp/ip. World at War was designed for pbem and the mechanics are designed to do so with ease. However EiA seems much more dynamic. It should also be known a lot of gamers I know didn't want to buy World at War because it had no tcp/ip support.













PeterF -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 4:52:31 PM)

Somewhat off topic is a WaW discussion from the war-historical group apropos of this subject:

quote:

Actually in WaW 1 turn requires 4 email exchanges per turn/season - if
four are participating. I don't think this is onerous provided your
partners are non-flaky types. It would be a stroke of genius if future
game developers offered a provision generating a HOST who could reset
absent players to AI control if necessary.


The eagerly awaited multiple turn PBEM game from Matrix is the
Napoleonic PC port Empire in Arms. I believe 6 or 7 powers are
represented, so PBEM participants may be required to submit character
references guaranteeing timely performance.




donkuchi19 -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/23/2005 5:57:18 PM)

I have never played PBEM games before so I am not all that interested in that. I am more interested as a hotseat type game. My friends and I have gotten together several times to play the boardgame and have never actually finished a game. We set it up, play several months, end the session, and then something happens. We don't get to meet again for a while, a cat, a child, or something else ruins the game. With a computer version, the only thing that could happen is if a save file corrupts.

That said, I would be interested in an IP version of the game. We would be able to continue games from our own homes and still keep playing.

I would not want it to delay the game any longer though. Maybe as an add-on later on.

(We haven't started a game since I discovered this forum about 2 years ago because we keep thinking, if we start it, it will come out and then we would start over. {Kind of like lighting a cigarette right as your food comes})



Forward_March -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/24/2005 12:29:09 AM)

I think IP play should be possible...it is after great fun to square off for some fast gaming. The game file would have to be able to be saved and picked up later, though. I have doubts about the ability of 7 players to get together at any one time, especially when they are from many diverse time zones. The again, if you could make it a 2, 3, or 4 person game with the remaining countries served by the AI, it would be great.

I feel that the game would be too long for successful PBEM play by 7 players...I'm really hoping for a not-too-stupid AI. My personal experience is that for every 20 guys you play in PBEM, 1 or 2 meet you at the pace you like. And when you start a 4 player tournament of a game, it never makes it past the second turn.

In summary, I give tcp/ip 2 thumbs up....but if it will take too long to implement, give us the game when all of the other bugs are ironed out, then send us a patch.



NeverMan -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/24/2005 12:37:47 AM)

First Question: Does TCP/IP play delay the release of this game?

TCP/IP play is so much better than PBEM. The whole game doesn't need to be completed in one sitting. It should be able to be saved and continued later, obviously.

TCP/IP should definitely be considered and implemented in the NEXT release of this game. Delaying this game any further than it has already been delayed is just not a reasonable

If anything, there is a VERY good chance I will not buy this game because it does not have TCP/IP. Is that a good reason?? PBEM is TOO slow and boring. It's for old men who play chess by mail. It's weak and outdated.

People say "TCP/IP games will never be completed". To that I say "Do you think that most PBEM games are ever completed, or for that matter than even most EiA games in general are ever completed". The answer is NO. Stable gamers probably have finished games before, but most likely not without some player changes.



adamflo79 -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/24/2005 3:21:34 AM)

Just for me personally, I will be playing the game with a group of friends on Sunday evening. That is when we always play games. I don't know if there is a hot seat feature in the game or not, but that is the way we would like to play. Being able to communicate with the players, perhaps even make alliances in another room while the other player is doing his turn. So I would like that feature in the game.



eg0master -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/24/2005 6:19:11 PM)

I think IP play is a good idea.
Gettin 7 friends together for EiA once a week seams to be impossible. So PBEM seams to be one solution. IP play is another.

I think at least me and my friends are going to play this game both face to face (for that classic EiA experience) and then use PBEM to keep the game alive between F2F sessions. So if I cannot switch between hotseat (for f2f) and pbem mode (which I don't even dare hope for), IP play might be a solution aswell. once in a while between f2f sessions we can connect from our homes for a few rounds of IP play and then save. For our f2f session we use IP play on a local LAN instead of hotseat or face-2-face-PBEM.

So my summary:
I either want IP play OR the ability to switch between hotseat and PBEM modes during a game. One of these features would solve my (and my friends) problem. Having both is a bonus.



jclauder -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/25/2005 9:38:14 AM)

IP games are the best. It allows the game to be played at a quick pace. Every multiplayer game I have played has been IP. The one time I tried PBEM, it took so long, that we gave up and quit. My vote is to put in IP in the initial release. I'm sure that will add a little time to the delivery date, but not very much. I am very much looking forward to the EIA release.

Jim




kajmakchalan -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/27/2005 5:19:54 AM)

I feel strongly that PBEM is much more realistic than IP play for EiA. I am an experienced EiA player who has played both pbem and IP.

EiA is not designed to be a quick, "let's get in four more turns before bedtime" kind of game. It's a slow, measured game where only 3-4 players are likely to be busy at all at any one time. The other players will be building up their armies or licking their wounds, and not engaged enough to justify IP play.

To play EiA well, some thought and diplomacy needs to go into each players turn. These aren't the kinds of thing that can be carried out well live, on-line. Resolution of the turn is really just the culmination of the planning and diplomacy that has already occured between the players, and is the real game.

Another factor weighing against IP play is the difficulty of getting 7 players together, in the same time zone or on the same schedule, to play enough of the game to make it worthwhile.

I have a group of friends already who are committed to playing EiA when it finally comes out, but we are all busy with life, families, and work. Only through pbem will we ever find the time to sit down and resolve our turns.



Scoted01 -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/27/2005 5:56:40 PM)

I'm new to the forum but I have played quite a bit of EiA and agree with the last post by kajmakchalan. There is a lot of diplomacy that goes into the game which shouldn't be rushed and may be easier to pull off by PBEM. I'm sure if you have a committed group for a couple of hours you could get a few PBEM turns in one night. I wouldn't hold up the game release for IP, I'd rather see you focus on expanding the scenarios to include the revolutionary war.

Looking forward to the release!



Marshall Ellis -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (4/27/2005 10:39:39 PM)

Hey guys:

My thinking is that this game has a following that reaches around multiple time zones and PBEM seems to help compensate for this. Almost every PBEM game I've been in (I will admit, we've NEVER finished) had players from around the world that it would be difficult for many to get up at 2:00AM to do a little IP play.

Just a few thoughts...

Thank you



MartNick -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/1/2005 4:13:24 AM)

IP will certainly be the way to go for anybody thinking of playing this on a network, such as LAN parties etc

Just my 2 cents



larrywrose -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/1/2005 8:30:38 AM)

I would say that you can add IP play, but I don't really see it as necessary. The Diplomacy phase alone when I used to play we limited to 20 minutes. This usually involved 3 players sitting around why France talked to Turkey, Spain, Prussia and Austria. This depends a lot on what wars are involved. On the other hand IP play would be awesome in a 2 player game with 5 computer run countries. Two people getting together is easy. Every time you add another player you increase the chance that somebody will not make it. So my suggestion is can the IP part of the game. Release that in the upgrade with better graphics two years after the release date.

Larry W. Rose



Forward_March -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/1/2005 11:15:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larrywrose

I On the other hand IP play would be awesome in a 2 player game with 5 computer run countries. Two people getting together is easy. Every time you add another player you increase the chance that somebody will not make it. So my suggestion is can the IP part of the game. Release that in the upgrade with better graphics two years after the release date.

Larry W. Rose


I agree with you completely, Larry. I don't imagine too many 7 player games done by PBEM will make it to 1806. Yes, I sound pessimistic. But my past experience with multiplayer PBEM games is that one gets busy, forgets his turn, doesn't tell someone he's taking a month-long holiday, or a million other things contribute to game stall.

Don't get me wrong...I'd love to play the thing out with six other war-mongers like myself. I just have too little faith in 5 out of 7 of my fellow war mongers.



Executioner Five -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/1/2005 3:26:01 PM)

I'm surprised no one else has felt the same way I do yet...

I'd like to see it, but NOT, repeat, NOT, at the cost of a delay in release. If it can be patched in later, great...if it's either delay the game's release or no IP play, I'd rather see no IP play. I can live with PBEM :)[:)]



sniperfodder -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/2/2005 1:40:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Executioner Five

I'm surprised no one else has felt the same way I do yet...

I'd like to see it, but NOT, repeat, NOT, at the cost of a delay in release. If it can be patched in later, great...if it's either delay the game's release or no IP play, I'd rather see no IP play. I can live with PBEM :)[:)]



I agree completly.
I woun't mind the ablitly to play both with in one game, ie PBEM during the week, but somehow have it auto sinc if we can link up on the weekend. Again, not at the cost of a delay.

Someone mentioned in game communication. I wouldn't waste time with it. People can use MSN messanger, or Xfire, or ICQ, whatever they want. There are lots of stand alone programs that work fine. Don't try and fit more into the game then is needed.




yammahoper -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/4/2005 3:17:13 AM)

Yes on IP. I have no desire to email game or play with others in many time zones from around the world. I am part of a dedicated gaming group that has been together since the earky eighties, and will play the game togther on our gaming Saturdays or at our occassional LAN's.

For us, in between game time is also game time. Strategy, diplomacy, invasion plans, even chit choices are often decided between sessions (for us, we play every other Saturday, a compromise the spouses enjoy so THEY can have a Saturday of our respective times alos, lol). Certainly while LANing the game we would have no problem pausing and taking as long as we desired for diplomacy, battle resoultions, etc (we debate if we fight the battles with pen and paper or use the provided battle system...we shall wait and see). The nice thing about playing this game in a LAN setting; no need to write down all your forces positions when you pack up and quit for the day, only to reset the board at the next game session; rather, the computer saves the game file and all we have to do s fire it up.

For those who do not have a gaming group or freinds who play EiA, I can see whythey would prefer PBEM. For those of us who plan on playing regularly in a local setting, LAN capability is a must (though it could come out in the second version).

yamma



Titi -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/7/2005 4:10:10 AM)

It's funny to see that some basic design decisions are still pending.

Personally i strongly favor TCP/IP over PBEM. Why? Cause spending three hours per week on CEiA, i will probably made three months game time with TCP/IP while doing a phase of a month with PBEM (with an average of a player sending an email per day).

I completely understand that the implement of TCP/IP will delay a little more the game cause some mechanisms need to be changed back (like naval interceptions) and as i already wait a long time, i will be able to wait a lot more [:D].

I don't see any problem with multiples time zone cause it's the second parameter to choose opponents when starting a game, after the language. So, i'm sorry to anounce right now that i won't play with australian players.[;)]

At least, i hope that CWiF will learn fron this.[&o]



Khornish -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/7/2005 4:28:19 AM)

I'd love to have an IP play option.

I've several sons, with my elder two old enough to want to play me EiA.

It would be much preferable for us to set up our local network with 3 computers and play together, than to be forced to email each other or file swap.



Titi -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/7/2005 4:46:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Khornish

I'd love to have an IP play option.

I've several sons, with my elder two old enough to want to play me EiA.

It would be much preferable for us to set up our local network with 3 computers and play together, than to be forced to email each other or file swap.



Do you have some growth hormons to sell? Mine is only 4 years old. I want to initiate him to EiA quicker [:D]



eg0master -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/7/2005 12:43:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Khornish

I'd love to have an IP play option.

I've several sons, with my elder two old enough to want to play me EiA.

It would be much preferable for us to set up our local network with 3 computers and play together, than to be forced to email each other or file swap.


And hotseat is not an option?



gazfun -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/8/2005 4:25:11 AM)

Ive been playing PC Strategy games for a very long time, 20years, weve had many multiplayer games, with LAN PBEM, and IP. Its the setting up time for getting people together that is the problem, the more people to get together the more difficult it becomes. If one or two cant make it it for some reason, then it slows the game etc, then people lose interest. No matter what way you play "THE" game there has to be a GM that will be there (gamemaster) to ensure that if people cant make it, that it will continue, and to ensure that it does continue, which means players will have to provide for when they cant turn up for a paticular event meeting. Its easier for 2 people to get together for an IP game and subsequently the more people the more difficult it is to maintain discipline for meeting. In PBEM games there always the same factor of absenteeism as in IP but the pressure for a paticular day meeting is off. Therefore the GM can ask for a deadline time for orders to be recieved, which if still not complied with by players, and a temporary arrangement can cover for the either replaceing the player or in this case in EiA that I have observed the AI can do that turn for the missing player.
PBEM have a stronger chance of being completed, even if by attrition other players get out because of what ever reason, (losing perhaps)the AI players can take over in this case. You have more chance with the hard core of players left to continue a PBEM game



Khornish -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/8/2005 7:44:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titi

Do you have some growth hormons to sell? Mine is only 4 years old. I want to initiate him to EiA quicker [:D]



It's called "Miracle Grow".

And people only thought it was useful for garden plants...



Khornish -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/8/2005 7:47:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eg0master

[And hotseat is not an option?


No.

Try maintaining the interest of 2 teenagers at a single computer when each of them is told to get away from it for 2/3 of the time to play.

I'd like a game session to last a few hours, but not hotseat it. If we did so, the game would never end as my sons would get fed up with the the delays, and frankly so would I.



Khornish -> RE: IP Play or NOT to IP Play? That is the question! (5/8/2005 7:57:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun

Its the setting up time for getting people together that is the problem, the more people to get together the more difficult it becomes. If one or two cant make it it for some reason, then it slows the game etc, then people lose interest.... Therefore the GM can ask for a deadline time for orders to be recieved, which if still not complied with by players, and a temporary arrangement can cover for the either replaceing the player or in this case in EiA that I have observed the AI can do that turn for the missing player.
PBEM have a stronger chance of being completed, even if by attrition other players get out because of what ever reason, (losing perhaps)the AI players can take over in this case. You have more chance with the hard core of players left to continue a PBEM game



With an IP game, you can just leave it on and complete turns at leisure at least I can, and can several of my friends who are scattered about the country.

An IP option can be supported with turn time limits where the players' actions can be handled by the AI if the timer runs out. Set to where the players can choose to choose to set a time limit or not and where they can choose to have the AI run a timed out turn or not then this gives the players more options for starting and finishing a game. More options tend to lead to better sales due to more customer demands being satisfied...otherwise we'd all be driving the same make, model, and color of automobile.



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