How about a May Update? (Full Version)

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DavidI -> How about a May Update? (5/9/2005 8:20:57 PM)

Tim,
Throw us hungary tactical Napoleonic fans a bone? Progress? Screenies? Something?
Anything?[&o]
DavidI



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/9/2005 10:51:26 PM)

I believe that in another thread such a release of information or screenshots has been mentioned. The crowd is hushed. [;)]



DavidI -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/10/2005 12:56:56 AM)

Le Tondu,
Tim has been very good about responding to forum questions. I figured he will either cough up some new info, or tell us that he doesn't have anything at present but is working hard on it.[;)]
David



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/10/2005 2:22:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidI

......................but is working hard on it.[;)]
David




On that we can be certain. [8D]



Tim Coakley -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/10/2005 3:25:51 AM)

May update? It's May already?

Not much to "show" this month...more action behind the scenes. I am getting a new version this week...

1) Up to 3800 unit pictures
2) AI scripting interface updated
3) Unit icons, base terrain (minus hexsides) all done
4) New zoom method with reduced bitmap images...easier for modders to create new terrain sets
5) Better hexside images (still in the works)

There are two interface modifications to be made...as long as they are done, I will get up the new shots...I have been waiting until they looked presentable.

Tim



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/10/2005 4:44:13 AM)

Woo Hoooo! Now, I call that a fast return. We'll be waiting.



DavidI -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/10/2005 5:05:27 PM)

Tim,
Thanks for the update. Sounds like you are moving right along. I look forward to seeing your teasers when they are ready. Even more than that I look forward to playing a serious game about Napoleonic tactical warfare. With it's success I hope to see "Warfare in the Age of Enlightenment" and "Rifles and Shot" (or some such) to follow soon thereafter. [&o]
DavidI

PS. I will let you know when it's June.[:D]
di



sabreman1966mcs -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/10/2005 7:03:12 PM)

Thanks for the update, sounds like the one to get this year [:D]



Zap -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/13/2005 1:14:37 AM)

Since there is no US civil war scheduled in the near future I am looking for Napoleanic period. This game may be what I am looking for. I like that period, as a change from WWII



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/13/2005 2:56:50 AM)

Uh oh. We've all been Zapped. [;)]



Zap -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/14/2005 7:23:20 PM)

Hi, Le Tondu I know this thread is your watering hole but suprise! I have played Sid Myers WATERLOO. And the boardgame (of so many years ago) Austerlitz. I do like the napoleanic period. Thanks for the welcome.

Am I right that the Waterloo game by Sid Myers is a Wego system? If thats the case then I will have to give this one a try. The other Napoleonic game being produced might not be a possibility because I can't devote a specific time to sit down at the computer others.

I have not read the threads on this game but maybe Le Tondu, you could give me your first impressions.



sol_invictus -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/14/2005 8:58:09 PM)

Zap, Sid's games were continuous time or some call it realtime. In WEGO games, both sides give orders and then when the turn progression button is pushed, both sides orders are carried out at the same time for a certain period of time. You then progress to the next turn and repeat.



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 12:47:02 AM)

Yeah, "Sid Myers Watterloo" as it is called was put out by Breakaway Games and it is RTS. (Not my cup of tea, btw.)

My first impression of this game ("Black Powder Wars: Battles Of Napoleon ") is pretty good. I just eat up tactical level Napoleonic rule sets. I am a patient man. This game may more "resemble" HPS's Campaign Series of Napoleonic games at first glance. It is being put out by a dedicated fan of the Napoleonic Era. This is not a 3D game like "Combat Mission" or "Les Grognards," which is alright to me. (Personally, I like using my mind's eye in imagining what is happening on the "battlefield."

I expect that it's system requirements will be kind to the older systems that some of us may own. Their desire to add in a Campaign system that will use this tactical level is a very good sign of things to come. I own two of Frank Hunter's ADANAC titles ("1806" & "1805/09") and I was impressed by both of them and I plan to own this one as well once it is released.

Arinvald it spot on about we-go. In my opinion, we-go games are the best and the fairest to both sides.



sabreman1966mcs -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 11:25:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

Yeah, "Sid Myers Watterloo" as it is called was put out by Breakaway Games and it is RTS. (Not my cup of tea, btw.)

My first impression of this game ("Black Powder Wars: Battles Of Napoleon ") is pretty good. I just eat up tactical level Napoleonic rule sets. I am a patient man. This game may more "resemble" HPS's Campaign Series of Napoleonic games at first glance. It is being put out by a dedicated fan of the Napoleonic Era. This is not a 3D game like "Combat Mission" or "Les Grognards," which is alright to me. (Personally, I like using my mind's eye in imagining what is happening on the "battlefield."

I expect that it's system requirements will be kind to the older systems that some of us may own. Their desire to add in a Campaign system that will use this tactical level is a very good sign of things to come. I own two of Frank Hunter's ADANAC titles ("1806" & "1805/09") and I was impressed by both of them and I plan to own this one as well once it is released.

Arinvald it spot on about we-go. In my opinion, we-go games are the best and the fairest to both sides.


I started my wargaming life at the tender age of 11 with Napoleonics initially with 25mm miniatures using Bruce Quarrie's 'Napoleons Campaigns in Miniature'. I still have in storage a 15mm Prussian army (von Bulow's Corp at Waterloo) and a partially painted 6mm British and French army (Vittoria campaign).
As far as boardgames go I still have copies of AH's War and Peace (which I would love to see done on the PC) and one of the limited editions that GDW did of La Bataille de la Moskova, which I ended up having to mount on a wall as I didn't have a table large enough for the map [:D]
The only Napoleonic PC game I ever got was Microprose's Fields of Glory which was more RTS than anything else, shame I can't get it to run on this PC. I am toying with the idea of getting a HPS title at the moment as they seem to be the main ones played over at the Blitz. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which one would be the best to get? I definately need a Napoleonics fix to keep me going until BPW comes out [:D]

We-Go is defiantely the way to go. I play both War in the Pacific and Uncommon Valour which use a We-Go system and they work great and certainly bring back the feel of old board and miniature games.



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 6:13:54 PM)

Believe it or nor, HPS has a new Napoleonic title. It is called "Waterloo" and was released two days. After looking it over, I recommend it during the interim wait for BoN. Here is the link :

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/NapBat/waterloo/waterloo.html

Waterloo's Historical Scenarios :

Ligny
Quatre Bras
Soleilmont
Waterloo
Wavre
Twin Battles: Ligny & Quatre Bras
Twin Battles: Waterloo & Wavre
Entire Campaign - single scenario

What If Scenarios Covering:

Braine le Comte
Chatelet
Mons
Nivelles
Plancenoit
The Ridge
Togrinne
And others...

61 scenarios are included in the main section with another 109 being created for the campaign specific situations.

Maps:

There is one main map that They created for the campaign, it measures 560 x 400 hexes (that's 224,000 hexes...) and it covers from Charleroi in the South, to Mons in the West, to Gembloux East and finaly to the village of Waterloo, just south of Brussels. Almost three times more ground than was historically covered, to allow many what if situations to be explored. From this many sub-maps have been created, and can be created for future use.

Some New Game Features:

Weather
Disordered defenders now defend at 2/3 strength instead of full strength.
Disordered attackers now attack at 1/3 strength instead of 1/2 strength.
Cavalry charge continuation
Multiple melees on the same unit are now possible, as an optional rule.
Battle termination feature added for those playing a campaign against the AI.
Random scenario selection within the campaign engine.

Some comments on the weather feature:

Beyond the normal use of this feature to replicate the effects of weather on the terrain and combat they also used it for two other things.

1. To gradually decrease visibility as the major battles progressed. This is to simulate the gathering smoke from the various weapons used.

2. To gradually increase and decrease visibility for dawn and dusk, so that it goes from 1 hex, to 2, then to 3 then 4 and vice versa as the time frame changes

Play options:

play by e-mail (PBEM)
on-line single or multi-play
single play against AI
hotseat

Campaign features

losses carryover between battles
fatigue carryover between battles
leader promotion/replacement
straggler return between battles
limited reconstitution of destroyed regiments



I pray that the size of the campaign map is being noted. Hint: the bigger, the better.

So Saberman1966, you've picked a fairly good time to consider this question while waiting for BoN. I stopped playing John Tiller's games because of their combat system. Maybe some stuff has been fixed. It was the HUGE maps that I liked the most about them though.



sol_invictus -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 6:15:19 PM)

Sabreman, I would also love to see War and Peace ported tp the PC. I still have a copy as well.



sabreman1966mcs -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 6:28:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu

Believe it or nor, HPS has a new Napoleonic title. It is called "Waterloo" and was released two days. After looking it over, I recommend it during the interim wait for BoN.



I had seen that title and have exchanged a couple of messages over at The Blitz with Rich Hamilton as to whether or not it would run on a Windows 2000 PC, as the system requirements, over at the HPS site, don't mention it. All I have to wait for now is the wife to turn her back and sneak the purchase through on the credit card [:D]



sabreman1966mcs -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 6:34:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

Sabreman, I would also love to see War and Peace ported tp the PC. I still have a copy as well.


I last played it about seven years ago [:(] That was a PBEM, to resolve the combat we used to meet in a chatroom once a week that had an automatic dice rolling program, that was the easiest way we found of sorting out the combat phase. I still think there is a War & Peace PBEM mailing list somewhere out there.



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 7:12:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabreman1966

I had seen that title and have exchanged a couple of messages over at The Blitz with Rich Hamilton as to whether or not it would run on a Windows 2000 PC, as the system requirements, over at the HPS site, don't mention it. All I have to wait for now is the wife to turn her back and sneak the purchase through on the credit card [:D]


I always thought that Windows XP requirements covered Windows 2000 requirements with no problem.

I too am contemplating the wife's back being turned about. [;)]



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/15/2005 8:00:53 PM)

If I may add something about "Waterloo," it would be this link:

http://hist-sdc.com/waterloo/cpwdoc.html

I am in no way am supporting "Waterloo" over BoN. (I believe that BoN will be much better.)

I do believe that there are some aspects of "Waterloo" that the developers of BoN should take notice of. Mainly, the HUGE size of their campaign map. (Did I say that enough times in this thread?) [;)]

I support all Napoleonic efforts if :

1.) they aren't Realtime. A true misnomer if there ever was one.

2.) they aren't unhistorical. (ie. Prussian Landwehr should never be able to break down an entire battalion into skirmish order like they do in a certain game that purports to break away.) Historical correctness is a must for me.

Pretty much that is it. Napoleonics all the way, man.
[8D]



sol_invictus -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/16/2005 4:32:01 AM)

The last Tiller game I played was Normandy and that was all I could handle. I swore off of the system after that. I must say though, I am very tempted to grab Waterloo. I am absolutely craving some Napoleonics. I have been denied for far to long. When is Crown of Glory coming out again?[;)]



Jagger2002 -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/16/2005 5:40:01 AM)

I had the need for Napoleonics as well...I bought HPS Eckmuhl. It came in this weekend and I spent some time on it.

The interface is absolutely archaic. Why do I have to use those little scrolling bars on the side to move within the map instead of just shifting my mouse or using the scroll key? Everything is driven by way too many mouse keyclicks. What I would give for some hotkeys.

Having said that, I like it right now. The AI is a bit better than I remember it, more aggressive. Sometimes too aggressive...I just watched the French trying approach my lines by wading through a huge swamp rather than use the roads. I doubt if that particular force is going to have much impact on that battle.

The system has changed such that skirmishers don't appear to be so dominant as in the BG system. But then I noticed today a cavalry charge into a mass of routed, disrupted Bavarians resulting in heavy losses by my cavalry...ummm. Regardless, the game seems a better Napoleonic simulation that the old BG series. I also like the shortened phase system which allows for quick PBEM's. When I have time, I am going to have try a PBEM with it. Then I will know if I really like it or not.

The series has made some progress over the last 10 years but not a lot. They were the only PC Napoleonics game in town. I think that is going to change which may not be good for HPS games but should be good for Napoleonics players.



Zap -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/16/2005 10:54:24 AM)

Thanks for the reply. It has been a long spell since playing Sid's game. Yes, Sid's game was hetic now that I recall. I don't like RTS either. At the time, I thought that was all that was available for the computer.
When I bought the game I had recently returned to gaming after a long hietas. I bought what I could find in the stores. Anything Napolenic looked good to me. I had no sources to direct me at that time. I was internet illiterate.
But now I have access to good sources thanks to everyone in these forums.

I haven't owned any of the other titles you mentioned so I could not relate. I will be adding newly produced titles but will be looking with a more discerning eye so that the games I purchase will better fit my likes.

I like accuracy historical/battle/maps - the games can be tactical as well as operational.
I will be popping in and out to see the progress and follow the posts. Thanks again.



Iņaki Harrizabalagatar -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/16/2005 3:28:40 PM)

I bought HPS Wagram some time ago, and the AI is just awful, although misleading, the first turns it seems good (probably there were some scripted movements) but after a few turns the AI start to do so many stupid things as to ruin any feeling about the game.



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/16/2005 5:29:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iņaki Harrizabalagatar

I bought HPS Wagram some time ago, and the AI is just awful, although misleading, the first turns it seems good (probably there were some scripted movements) but after a few turns the AI start to do so many stupid things as to ruin any feeling about the game.



I had Eckmuhl and yes, you are right, but let's admit it. Any computer wargame or strategy game's AI is nothing more than a trainer of sorts. It's job is to get us to the point where we are ready to play against another human being. There are just too many different ways to play a wargame. The way that I look at it, any wargame that goes beyond that is a bonus. Its something extra.

If one thinks about it, there really isn't anything intelligent that comes with anything artificial. Artificial Intelligence is a misnomer. True intelligence belongs to the living. Anything else is just mimicry, in my opinion.



steveh11Matrix -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/17/2005 12:41:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Le Tondu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iņaki Harrizabalagatar

I bought HPS Wagram some time ago, and the AI is just awful, although misleading, the first turns it seems good (probably there were some scripted movements) but after a few turns the AI start to do so many stupid things as to ruin any feeling about the game.



I had Eckmuhl and yes, you are right, but let's admit it. Any computer wargame or strategy game's AI is nothing more than a trainer of sorts. It's job is to get us to the point where we are ready to play against another human being.
Interesting, how people fall naturally into two camps on this one. When playing on the computer, I'm almost entirely a "me vs the ai" person. If I play a game - any game, not just wargames - against a human I want it to be more social than competitive. PBEM or it's other MP analogues just turn into horrid nasty games in which anything goes as long as you win, or at least so has been my experience, limited as it's been. Quite aside from the fact that I play when *I* want to play, not at someone else's convenience!

There are exceptions of course, but generally it's down to finding the right people - and the best way of doing that, it seems to me, is to actually meet them, have a beer, and so on. At which point, playing on the computer becomes a very minor thing!

Steve.



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/17/2005 7:42:21 PM)

steveh11Matrix,

Of course you are absolutely right.

MP can turn into something really nasty where it is abuse the rules kind of thing. Anything can have it's negative side, don't you think? This is why I am so firm on having some kind of pre-game discussion as to what type game one wants. Pre-game agreements are a must for me.

MP is a social thing and it is more, in my opinion. Its a chance to re-enact for some folks. With the HUGE Waterloo map for instance, one can play as the army commander and make different choices. Actually, its pretty fun....and that is the whole point, eh?

I say, if it isn't fun, why do it?



DavidI -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/17/2005 11:18:29 PM)

HPS's Games are OK, but they have some horrible problems:
1. The AI SUCKS OUT LOUD! In an Eckmulh Campaign Game I played the French. I withdrew the Bavarian Division with no pressure from the Austrians, a day went by and still no Austrians. I sent a cavalry Brigade down to the Danube River and there watched the Austrian Army, still on their side of the river happily forming line, column, square, changing facing and moving everywhere except across the Bridge! As the Austrians, I crossed the river and killed every man of the Bavarian Division, ran into the next French force and killed every man in it, proceeded to the next French force and killed them off to a man. No challenge at all.
2. Cavalry recon is done by, what I call, "The Little Big Horn Method". It works like this: Cavalry regiment proceeds up the road and runs into an Infantry Regiment in the woods and is stopped by entering it's ZOC. The Infantry fires in the defensive fire phase and empties 100 saddles. Then in your opponent's turn he Offensively fires killing another 120 cavalrymen. In your move you can then move your battered and bleeding Cav Regiment back. "But wait" you say "you could deploy squadrons from the Regiment!" True, but then you lose the squadron to the last man (OK, a savings of 100 men). What should be a matter of a few pickets will lose you Custer's immediate command in 15 minutes. HPS has been repeately called on this problem and has, to date, refused to do anything about it.
Ironic because they already have a solution in the way infantry with skirmishers deployed in their Civil War games can "see" units two hexes out (they identify something is there, but not what). If they just allowed cavalry to do the same thing, the games would be alot better (especially the big games where you do move to contact).
3. There is nothing that prevents you moving your skirmishers as far away from it's parent unit as you want. This becomes particullarly bothersome in big games if your opponent decides to just flood the map trolling for supply units. If you play against a human make sure you establish some sort of agreed upon solution to this.
Enough of my rant,
DavidI



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/18/2005 1:12:06 AM)

DavidI,

1. Yeah, ok. I've seen nothing that says the AI has been improved at all. (Again, my personal preference is playing against another human being.) It could be argued that this game is intentionally set up for MP when you consider the gaming clubs like the Napoleonic Wargaming Club & The Blitz.

2. The elimination of the defensive fire problem that cavalry suffers while doing recon can easily be taken care of ---by simply turning defensive fire off before you start your game. It does show the weakness of turn based games however.

3. You said it buddy. Pre-game agreements are it. I really don't care what game one is playing. Getting to know your "opponent," setting up what type of game you want, and agreeing upon what the rules are is imperative. If you don't that, then you deserve what you get, IMHO. In that situation, players have nothing to whine or complain about.


We all know that HPS's Napoleonic games aren't perfect. (Whose is?) Discussion about them is only happening because one member here wanted to play a Napoleonic game while he was waiting for this wonderful game (BoN) to be released. It is what I've decided to do as well.

To be fair, John Tiller has shown a willingness to listen to his customers and to some make changes and improvements over the years. Granted, he is kind of slow about it, but no one can argue with that.

Anyways, Napoleonic wargaming needs support --in general. I am just grateful that I can participate.



Le Tondu -> RE: How about a May Update? (5/18/2005 1:21:12 AM)

One important word about pre-game agreements. The wording is important.


Example:
Do you want voluntary restrictions on skirmishers to go no further that 3 hexes from the Division, Brigade, Regiment, or parent Battalion. Makes for a BIG difference, I'd say.



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