RE: Suggestions for Spain? (Full Version)

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demonterico -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (7/25/2005 3:24:24 AM)

Alot of excellent advice here. But as I have noted for my last 30 years as a gamer,(boardgames, miniatures, and PC) most wargamers tend to under rate Spain. Spain has always been my favorite Napoleonic country. Remember first which country actually won the Napoleonic Wars, Great Britain, the leading naval power. In EinA Spain is the second largest naval power. I tend to think thats a good position to be in. For example if the British fleet is defeated Spain moves to the top of that list.

Don't forget minor fleets; Portugal of course, and possibly Sicily, the Dutch, and with French help even Denmark. Of course its unlikely that all the minor fleets will be acquired, that would be suicide for the British if they allowed the Spanish to do that, but if Spain can acquirer just two minor fleets that will provide enough ships to raise the value of Spanish friendship significantly.

On the land side of the game, do not use your armys fight battles against the French that you can not win. Remember in the real war the French held Madrid for almost the entire 7 years of the war. What good did it do them? Over those 7 years Napoleon lost 250,000 men in Spain, mostly to the guerrillas (a Spanish word) and attrition. You can't collect your taxes but you'll have British subsidies, and the gold convoy. Place your army units in strong garrisons in the distant Spanish port cities like Cadiz so that the French will have to stretch their LOC to the limit if they want to attempt a seige. Then if your concerned that the French might win a seige you can evacuate by sea. If you notice a position where the French are weak use your fleets to land and destroy the French units at that location. Its the Russian strategy, when Napoleon took Moscow the Czar sat back and let the French bleed. He didn't surrender, you don't have to either. One other point if the French get very aggresive you can move your armies to North Africa. Let him try to get at them there.

To finish I wish to revisit my original point. The Napoleonic Wars were not about "Le Grande Arme", they were about the British Navy. Napoleon's deathblow came on Oct. 21, 1805.

Allow me to quote Alfred Mahan; "The world has never seen a more impressive demonstration of the influence of sea power upon its history. Those far distant, storm-beaten ships, upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and dominion of the world."



9thlegere -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (7/26/2005 1:01:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demonterico

The Napoleonic Wars were not about "Le Grande Arme", they were about the British Navy. Napoleon's deathblow came on Oct. 21, 1805.



Although I am not so sure that at the time many contemporary Austrian, Russian and Prussians would agree with you!!



demonterico -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (7/27/2005 12:27:45 AM)

Yes I agree, and I would add, very few Frenchmen would have agreed with me as well, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing.



alar1c -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (9/9/2005 8:55:25 PM)

First off I agree with most of what everyone has to say.

I one thought, with three solid allies running Spain, Russia and Turkey can be a very powerful group.
Russia and Spain can take GB and deal with the french boats.
On the land, Turkey can help the sleeping bear that is Russia with cannon fodder. And Russia gives Turkey some real moral to start a battle.

I'm not saying it's easy, but the 3 can deliver some real pain if working well together.
Al



AdmiralN -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (9/12/2005 9:04:23 PM)

In my opinion Spain should seek a long term alliance with GB more than with France; although I agree when you people say that Spain can add some threats to French plans, France won't lose the chance to hit Spain during continental lapse of war...

I never played Spain, I'm just reporting my observer's thoughts:)

You should toad GB, even if it means losing minors (this is their final use), and enter the continental war at its side in exchange of Portugal and financial aid; try to negociate to get involved after you conquer Portugal. Not because of its ships or manpower, but flatly because by that time France will easily have nearly all its corps far away from you.
Getting into the war will grant you the same lapse of war as central empires', avoiding you to bear a standalone war.
Of course you should keep an open diplomatic channel with Austria to get your slice of Italy in exchange for your help.

About minors: always keep in mind that you win with pps. Minors are useful to build and mantain armys and fleet. Spain doesn't need much manpower to reach a good army size - compared to its depressing max allowance, of course - but it surely needs money to build ships. You better get minors in Northafrica and give them to GB - that desperatly needs every single filthy mp point:) - in exchange of good treaties and bucks.

One last thing - actually the most important: make yourself absolutely clear with GB that you'll not tolerate the entire french fleet destruction! If it happens immedialtely set up a coalition with Russia and Turkey and hit GB as hard and soon as you can, no matter what you 3 are doing.
You'll be as worthy as mud to GB if France loses its fleet and unless a Ru-Sp-Tu coalition acts immediately you'll all be single impotent targets to the british.





Groosh -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (9/20/2005 5:34:01 PM)

I think one of the better strategies with Spain is to simple sit on the fence and not commit to anything with either GB or France for as long as possible and to pursue your own goals in the meantime.



Camile Desmoulins -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (9/22/2005 4:07:29 PM)

Play with Spain is quite difficult, but it is one of the countries (together with Great Britain) in those that better you can see the hand of the good or the bad player. Is a diplomatic game, in essential. The better wealth of Spain is her fleet and the impossibility of to be invaded. The fleet you must always conserve her, never to expose it and to protect her with all the possible corps in Cádiz, and from where you can threaten Great Britain. It begins this way a diplomatic game of threats between Great Britain and Spain, and of approach between France and Spain. But you should never take the alliance with France to their last consequences (it will finish betraying you: France only needs your fleet, not your army), and never taking the threat to Great Britain at the end (or you lose the fleet, and then you don't serve France, or you eliminate the British danger, and then you are no longer useful). You can promises a lot, but have tha ability for not signing those like treaties that become turn against you, or of finding excuses that allow you to conserve your value and not-replacing ships and men. Non agression and mutual assistance is the diplomatic system.
It uses this ambiguous posture to negotiate small achievements: takes out money to Great Britain in exchange for not attacking; takes out small territories to France (Italy, free action in the North of África) to France in exchange for continuing on their side. It can be interesting to reinforce the role of Spain associating to the (you don't forget it) third fleet, the Russian, but this movement depends on Russian player's kind..
While this stays this way, Spain will go growing as power and it will maintain safe their powers. But if fails interfering hard in some big campaign (with France or another Great Power) and losing their army or their fleet, Spain turn as a secondary country that won't be able to avoid the Ottoman expansion, will lose the game.

Camille



McGuire -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/3/2005 4:58:45 PM)

I read all of the above with much interest.

Most of which is written above is true from my pont of view.

BUT:
I don't think an ally with GB would be any use for a Spain.
1.
GB has the same interests as Spain! Just think of Portugal, Gibraltar, North Africa, etc.

2.
You don't want France to conquer you! He has the Anti-Guerilla-Step!

3.
What do you have to offer? Nothing to GB except keeping peace. And France: Help against those nasty GB fleets.

From my point of view the best possible alliance would be (from the beginning of the game):
Spain - France - Russia

You three can crush the GB fleets and with only a few troops you and Russia may conquer GB. What's in it for you and your allies?
France:
A quick and victorious end of the war against GB. Removal of the most annoying leader in the game! Free back to advance against Austria and Prussia.
Russia:
He can be garuanteed to get Scandinavia maybe even Denmark and Poland if he gets into the war with Prussia. The required provinces of Austria for getting dominant if he gets into the war with Austria. And maybe a Province of GB [:)]!
Spain:
Of course most important. You may advance in Northern Africa without fearing intervention of the English. You get Portugal! You seize Gibraltar (And with Morokko you can seal of the gate to the Atlantic)! And withe the right diplomacy (with France) you can get Italy and a couple other areas in the Mediterranean (MALTA!). And last bot sure not least! You are THE naval power! And you may even get the dominant status (but do not get into the way of the French)

Afterwards you and Russia may decide to go for Turkey, but that needs to be seen!

First: Crush the GBs with France & Russia!
Second: Get Gibraltar, Poland, Malta, Italy (no need to do it in this order)
Third: Go for northern Africa.

And after GB's finished of it's a win-win situation!



Pippin -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/4/2005 3:40:42 PM)

Lately as Spain, i've become a fan of demanding huge $$$ from Britain, or I threaten to go to war on her and ally with france. Within a year's time either Spanish or French corps will be sitting in London. If things go bad for us, I can always stockpile in ireland.




1LTRambo -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/8/2005 10:42:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barbu



Rolling back to the early game: Portugal is yours, and so are Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. Naples is yours too, but make sure you do not excessively antagonize the russians over it. You should declare war on both Naples and Portugal on the first turn, get those extra 17 ships in your ranks as soon as possible. Make it very clear that suiciding these minor countries's fleets will be considered a casus belli.




When you refer to gaining a casus belli, are you refering to the Major Power player who is controlling the Minor?



Barbu -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/9/2005 5:41:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1LTRambo


When you refer to gaining a casus belli, are you refering to the Major Power player who is controlling the Minor?



Yes, though not in a reference to any optional rules, since I think there are some that require a power to invoke a casus belli to declare war. I meant that should the controlling minor power suicide the fleet, that it should be considered as an act of war and that a declaration of war from spain to that major power might very well follow soon.



1LTRambo -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/17/2005 11:06:17 PM)

Ok. However, I understood that the person playing a major (France) who is controlling a minor (Portugal) who Spain is going to war with is suppose to be impartial. But in this example, the person playing France uses his position of winning control of the minor to ensure that Spain does not increase the Spanish navy. So are you suggesting that to counter partiality (in this example France) you (as Spain) would threaten war if they suggested sinking the navy?
Also, are there any rules suggesting that a Major Power Player can not do this when controlling a minor?[&:]



Barbu -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/18/2005 1:43:00 AM)

I can't imagine why any sane french player would do that. It's in France's interest that the Spanish navy be as strong as possible. Same with Russia. If that happens, you have bigger problems to contend with than the survival of these minors fleets, but I just don't see it as likely/

GB might want that, and it's possible that british pressure might push a Pr/As/Tu controller to do the same. For all these 4, it's probably not in their best interest to antagonize Spain early with the french issue still unresolved. Of course with diplomacy, anything can happen, but if Spain is firm enough regarding the continued existence of these minors fleets, the controlling powers might balk at going through and destroying the fleets. It's just not worth it.




1LTRambo -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/19/2005 4:32:03 AM)

Ok, now I understand.
Thanks



Roads -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/29/2005 12:06:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuire
From my point of view the best possible alliance would be (from the beginning of the game):
Spain - France - Russia

You three can crush the GB fleets and with only a few troops you and Russia may conquer GB. What's in it for you and your allies?
France:
A quick and victorious end of the war against GB. Removal of the most annoying leader in the game! Free back to advance against Austria and Prussia.
Russia:
He can be garuanteed to get Scandinavia maybe even Denmark and Poland if he gets into the war with Prussia. The required provinces of Austria for getting dominant if he gets into the war with Austria. And maybe a Province of GB [:)]!
Spain:
Of course most important. You may advance in Northern Africa without fearing intervention of the English. You get Portugal! You seize Gibraltar (And with Morokko you can seal of the gate to the Atlantic)! And withe the right diplomacy (with France) you can get Italy and a couple other areas in the Mediterranean (MALTA!). And last bot sure not least! You are THE naval power! And you may even get the dominant status (but do not get into the way of the French)

Afterwards you and Russia may decide to go for Turkey, but that needs to be seen!

First: Crush the GBs with France & Russia!
Second: Get Gibraltar, Poland, Malta, Italy (no need to do it in this order)
Third: Go for northern Africa.

And after GB's finished of it's a win-win situation!

Win-win for France and Russia perhaps. Spain's situation after crushing Britain is more precarious. She will have farflung possesions, most of which Britain wants back. She has no way to maintain naval superiority over France without British help (France can outbuild Spain in a hearbeat if she chooses to). And she presents an excellent punching bag for la Grande Armee at any time. The game is about PPs, and France needs lots of them. Once Britain is disposed of there is no reason not to beat the crap out of Spain for a little while and then make a generous peace.

Basically this stratagy puts Spain at France's mercy, at least until Britain can rebuild a powerful navy and regain whatever else he lost in the peace. If France is generous she may let Spain prosper. But to win France needs a steady flow of PPs, and the only reason not to get those PPs from Spain is that she has not minors that can be attacked, and France needs her navy to fend of Britain. Crush the British and you're France's plaything.



McGuire -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (11/29/2005 11:27:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roads

Win-win for France and Russia perhaps.



Well actually you're right! There's not toomuch holding back the French to beat the heck out of Spain. But there not mch to gain in doing so either.

Actually I was referring to a game I once played (Prussia).
The alliance (FR-RU-SP) crushed the GB fleet. Russia and Spain invaded GB and forced it to surrender unconditionaly. As result Spain got Ireland.
Afterwards France was making his points with beating AU and me over and over again. Always spend as much as he could spare for manipulation.
Spain got into North Africa and beat TU all the way back to Egypt without too much of a problem. Meanwhile FR got me to surrender (conditionally) and went on crushing AU After this was done FR-RU-SP went against TU and forced him to give up anything but his home-nation (conditional surrender).

After this FR tried to go for GB again. GB let him enter the country and them stopped his supply line. Some big FR losses followed. Only the FR ans SP combined fleets could rescue the FR troops. SP got Italy for this! But afterwars France wasn't strong enough to survive the war I was waging at him. This wasn't because of my troops but because of the RU, who backstabbed him.

In the end, a pretty beaten up GB won the game. But this was just because noone could get enough VPs to win. But SP was pretty close to it!
My guess is that with a little more offensive he could have won the game.

But I guess this is just one possible ending and I agree it's not very likely to happen. But I've seen FR and SP work together throughout a game - an it worked pretty good, too.
Butof course you're right. If FR would have gone for SP and wouldn't have done the mistake going for GB unprepared, he'd probably won.

So, to sum it up:
There is no BEST strategy in this game. Every game is different.
So, see for yourself. Do mistakes and learn! Do other mistakes and learn again!

And in the end, it's just the diplomacy!



Murat -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (8/6/2006 6:38:25 AM)

Some off topic stuff but more input on the Spain question that was buried.



Joisey -> RE: Suggestions for Spain? (8/8/2006 2:14:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Things that worked for me:

Convince the Frog to go for the big attack against the Brits on turn one. You know, Trafalgar, except Nelson loses. If you do the math, you have a more than fair chance of winning the battle and landing in England. It's a high risk, high reward strategy. Unfortunately most Frogs tend to concentrate on the coming land war, preferring to take care of the British later, no matter how urgently you explain that the very BEST chance you have is right at the start, otherwise the Brits build up their fleet with new builds, minor and allied fleets.

Otherwise, protect the fleet at all costs. You will have a difficult time replacing losses, so build some while you can.

Be as aggressive in Africa as possible early on. The weak Brits can't oppose you yet, and Turkey won't make too much of a stink unless you're aiming for Egypt.

Pick an ally and be loyal. I personally prefer to toady up to the French, basically telling them at start that they just lucked out and picked up a super loyal ally who will protect their southern flank and help in any way possible at virtually no cost, except of course for infusions of cash and minors, preferably in Italy (I once formed the KoI that way - that was one sweet Spanish empire har har).

You can toady up to the Brits, but be aware that any time the Frog is looking for easy PP between wars, you will have Nappy and a bunch of corps rampaging through your provinces, and unlike the historical situation, a competent Frog can wrest a surrender from you pretty quickly. With your crappy manpower, even if you win the odd fight, you will still be crippled.


I agree with this assessment 100%

Alot of Spanish players try a "neutral" third way: Battling Turkey quietly on the side for the Title of King of the Sand Dunes! But this is a loser dud of a strategy because you'll never gain enough PP doing this.



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