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ORIGINAL: Iridium

Or is it his evil twin?...[:D]

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ORIGINAL: genchoo

And how do you get McArthur out !

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ORIGINAL: Treetop64

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ORIGINAL: genchoo

And how do you get McArthur out !

...Or anybody at all, for that matter!

I was wondering the same thing, as none of the "A-ships" will load troops. The Japanese are bearing down hard on Bataan and Manila, and just about the only things I have left there are the ground personnel; most of the ships and aircraft stationed on Luzon have already been evacuated.

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ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

MacArthur was the bravest of the brave.
We should all have his portrait in a houses, schools, libraries, and hopping centres.
Defending Australia in New Guinea and island hopping could never be bested.

[image]local://upfiles/14378/6FCDE493C9DF4AF390AEE2894B4C124B.jpg[/image]

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I hope that was ironic statement too !!

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ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

MacArthur was the bravest of the brave.
We should all have his portrait in a houses, schools, libraries, and hopping centres.
Defending Australia in New Guinea and island hopping could never be bested.

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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Sharkosaurus rex, he might be the "bravest of the brave" but he was quite crazy too. Didn't he want to use atomic bombs against China? Truman was not crazy (he did not want to start WW3) and got rid of him [:D]

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Macarthur's great sin in modern America is his style and personality. He wasn't particularly humble and wasn't shy about it. Today, in a world where above all you must be "nice" and PC his style is unforgivable sin. It doesn't really matter what he did or didn't do....he's detestable today because he had an ego.

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Oh? "The Bomb" was ok against Japan, but wrong against the nice ChiComs? Obviously you butt wasn't on the line during the Korean War.

Every vet from WWII thinks "The Bomb" probably saved their lives...

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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Macarthur's great sin in modern America is his style and personality. He wasn't particularly humble and wasn't shy about it. Today, in a world where above all you must be "nice" and PC his style is unforgivable sin. It doesn't really matter what he did or didn't do....he's detestable today because he had an ego.

Well, if that is the case, why when you bring Patton's name up doesn't it provoke a similar response?

No, Mac had other problems besides ego.
Some high (or low) points:
1) Treatment of the Veteran's, and direction of troops crushing Hoovertown (he directed some fairly odious things against orders, then later denied and tried to cover it up);
2) Extorting $500,000 from the Philippines government;
3) Failure to adequately prepare the PI against invasion (lack of mining Lingayen gulf, etc.);
4) Debacle at Clarke Field after being warned ("It wasn't MY fault...")
5) Abandoning the PI when ordered to go to a position to where he could best direct defense of the PI (and deciding Australia look like a good position);
6) Advocating (demanding?) the courtmartial of Wainwright when Corregidor fell;
7) Completely disregarding intel reports about the Chinese entering the Korean conflict (leading to the rout of UN forces back past the 38th Parallel);

He did good things too. But no other modern US general i can think of had a list of anything near as bad as this, and still was in a top command position.

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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Oh? "The Bomb" was ok against Japan, but wrong against the nice ChiComs? Obviously you butt wasn't on the line during the Korean War.

Every vet from WWII thinks "The Bomb" probably saved their lives...

That would be because projected casualties in an invasion of Japan were > 1 million, and the TOTAL casualties in Korea were about 1/10th of that. Also because the Russians, who were Allied with the Chinese and Koreans, also had the bomb and the means to deliver it. Remember, Stalin (that great humanitarian) was still in charge of the USSR - think he would have shown a lot of forbearance?

So, whereas the bomb against Japan really risked few American lives and probably saved >200,000 GI lives, bombing China would have risked the lives of millions of US citizens. It certainly would not have saved the lives of >200,000 GIs...

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All true in one way or another - depending on your point of view. But none of those accusations change anything. If your honest with yourself, it was his style that upsets us today, nothing more or less.
If you add to that list his accomplishments and he shines above the rest of his generation.

As for Patton no one wrote tattle tale books about him because he pulled everyone's butt out of the fires of disgrace at Bastogne, all helped by the way Monty alienated the American top command at the time.
In short, Patton didn't live long enough to have his political enemies soil his name after the war.

I'm old enough to remember when Mac still alive, EVERYONE respected him then, it was after he passed away that the books came out and his reputation was under assault - it has been ever since.

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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All true in one way or another - depending on your point of view. But none of those accusations change anything. If your honest with yourself, it was his style that upsets us today, nothing more or less.
If you add to that list his accomplishments and he shines above the rest of his generation.

As for Patton no one wrote tattle tale books about him because he pulled everyone's butt out of the fires of disgrace at Bastogne, all helped by the way Monty alienated the American top command at the time.
In short, Patton didn't live long enough to have his political enemies soil his name after the war.

I'm old enough to remember when Mac still alive, EVERYONE respected him then, it was after he passed away that the books came out and his reputation was under assault - it has been ever since.

Well - after thinking about your comment for a bit, i would still disagree.

I am old enough to remember him dying, and remember he was controversial even then.

I have never read a specific biography just dedicated to him (on my list of things to read), but had formed my opinion about him well before i knew much about his management style and ego. I could NOT figure out just by reading various standard histories of the war why he hadn't been sacked right after Clark field, let alone after his leaving his troops (this was before i understood politics a little better). And of course, there was his brilliantly erratic performance in Korea. I had formed an opinion of him based on these two things before i knew about the other things - (opinion: offensive skill 8.5, defensive skill 2.5, overall rating 6 out of 10 - i.e. just above mediocre.). His other failings solidified my opinion - and i am not particularly concerned about his ego (although i don't consider that a plus) except that his ego-generated assertations are contradicted by the facts.

Again - other generals have had huge egos, and not provoked nearly the controversy of Mac. I will admit, though, that his big ego sort of pours gasoline on the fire.

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The point is, Mac wasn't insane for desiring to use the bomb on China at the time.

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Cheers!
It's all a matter of flavor...

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ORIGINAL: ian77




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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Macarthur's great sin in modern America is his style and personality. He wasn't particularly humble and wasn't shy about it. Today, in a world where above all you must be "nice" and PC his style is unforgivable sin. It doesn't really matter what he did or didn't do....he's detestable today because he had an ego.

Well, if that is the case, why when you bring Patton's name up doesn't it provoke a similar response?

No, Mac had other problems besides ego.
Some high (or low) points:
1) Treatment of the Veteran's, and direction of troops crushing Hoovertown (he directed some fairly odious things against orders, then later denied and tried to cover it up);
2) Extorting $500,000 from the Philippines government;
3) Failure to adequately prepare the PI against invasion (lack of mining Lingayen gulf, etc.);
4) Debacle at Clarke Field after being warned ("It wasn't MY fault...")
5) Abandoning the PI when ordered to go to a position to where he could best direct defense of the PI (and deciding Australia look like a good position);
6) Advocating (demanding?) the courtmartial of Wainwright when Corregidor fell;
7) Completely disregarding intel reports about the Chinese entering the Korean conflict (leading to the rout of UN forces back past the 38th Parallel);

He did good things too. But no other modern US general i can think of had a list of anything near as bad as this, and still was in a top command position.