How waste works... (Full Version)

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jchastain -> How waste works... (7/12/2005 2:54:53 AM)

For any who missed this burried in another thread, I played around with waste a bit and here is how it seems to work...

First, waste is a result of total production ONLY. It is not impacted by number of provinces, level of feudalism, or anything else.

Next, waste does not seem to impact labor, food or (strangely) wool. (Wool is especially strange since cotton does experience waste - bug?).

There is a threshold level of production for each remaining item below where waste is created. For most items it is 10. For Iron and Cotton, it is 20. So, there is no waste at all on the first 10 of everything produced and the first 20 of iron or cotton produced.

For any production above that threshhold, waste is set at 50% for everything EXCEPT textiles - they experience waste at 90%. So, if you produce 24 horses, the first 10 are below the threshold. The next 14 experience 50% waste so you lose 7 of them to waste.

For any production above 3x the threshold, you lose 90% waste. So any production above 30 for most items and any production above 60 for Iron and Cotton experiences extreme (90%) waste. So, if you produce 40 horses, the first 10 experience no waste, the next 20 experience 50% waste so you lose 10 of them, and the remaining 10 produce 90% waste so you lose 9 more for a total waste of 19. (Textiles waste 90% all the time so the step up doesn't impact them).



Uncle_Joe -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 4:18:09 AM)

Very nice analysis. It confirms what I had already surmised from my 'ball park' calculations...its probably not worth upgrading production on many items because of the severe diminishing returns.

I'm hoping that something changes such that its not simply waste taken off the top, but weighted for production vs territory. In other words, I think more 'efficient' provinces that have developed their pop, factories, roads and other capabilities should suffer considerably less waste than simply adding more provinces that get the same production. For example, a nation producing 50 textiles mainly from 6 or 7 highly developed provinces should suffer a lot less waste than another nation also producing 50 textiles from 15-20 scatter provinces all over the map. Otherwise, there is little incentive to bother with half of the economic upgrades in the game.

As it stands, you get 100% full value out of military upgrades and on resources spent on troops/ships etc. They can go out and conquer provinces. Doing so earns you glory for battles and potentially glory for provinces. Investing in the econ on the other hand, seems to yield few tangible benefits. You are probably looking at a sizeable amount of time before the upgrade would even pay itself off, and even when you are earning more resources, the return becomes less and less due to waste.

I hoping as we go further along the 'upgrade' path rather than bug-hunting, that we can see an overhaul of the waste system.



Ralegh -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 7:30:07 AM)

Good work jchastain - I have cross posted your findings into the pinned Tip Guide thread too.

On your findings: my comment is "YUCK"



Queeg -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 8:36:29 AM)

I don't mind the concept of Waste as a limitation to keep the game challenging. But I question whether it makes sense to have an economic system where 50-90% of your effort is wasted. Why upgrade or trade or even build textiles above a certain amount?

It would make more sense to me to roll back the economy across the board, rather than using phantom numbers. For example, I'd rather see upgrades, etc. increase your production by a smaller amount, but which you keep, rather than by a larger amount, 50-90% of which is wasted. Unless, of course, you can do something to offset waste, which you apparently cannot at present.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 9:41:48 AM)

Hi, Waste means you can only go so far before any further effort is ...well...wasted
Your system is not efficent enough to handle massive outputs. The solution is simple.
Rather then over produce a single item spread out the effort. Once you get those 10 horses in a province don't "produce" any more there.
There are no trains or 18 wheelers or superhighways to move items from productiopn province to point of consumption. What can't be moved or used right away goes to waste.
No canning plants or refrigeration or methods of tracking large volumes of material.
I start my games in 1792 the full scale industrial revolution is still some 56 or so years in the future (although it is forming in states like England and France it is decades away in Russia)
You want to make your economy more productive but don't get trapped into feeling you have to become a modern industrial giant. The way you increase your military strength in 1800 is to form an Alliance or coax one of your enemies partners away. (Really the best way since your faction increases by the amount the enemy faction decreases)
There is only one economic super power in 1792. Britain, with her control of the sea she controls the bulk of the worlds trade. That is why France sought to occupy all her European trading partners.
In COG the players have a few options that were not as ready in the actual event. The Turks allow all kinds of wheeling and dealing. Russia can actually remain Allied with France. (If I was setting up a multi player game the one house rule I would insist on was that France can never be Allied with Britian or Russia (Britian and Russia do not have to be Allied to each other they just can never be Allied with France)
What could be done against a British-French Alliance (nothing the other 6 powers combined would still lose)
What could be done against a French-Russian Alliance (Britian may escape conquest but the 0ther 5 nations are going to be occipied by the enemy)
Lets face it Britian and France and Russia are the players. No ALliance without at least one of these powers has a chance against an Alliance built around one or more. (The British-Russian Alliance is a good basic working Alliance. It should be hard for France to counter. It results in the historic problem France has to Occupy all of Europe and defeat Russia in a land war. The French player has to be darn good to win. (His problem will be keeping his Alliance partners from jumping ship at inoppertune times)
Oh sorry. I meant to say COG is not about production. You can get caught up in trying to squeeze that last horse or bail of cotton out and miss the real game.
Making friends (Allies) and then squeezing the last soldier out of them while preserving your own units.
When are 8 brave souls going to get together and play an online game? Huh? Thats what I'm talking about...[X(]



Uncle_Joe -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 9:53:24 AM)

Mogami,

Well, if the game was designed with that as the intent from the get-go, I think it could work fine. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of province upgrades to consider. If investing in your provinces wont pay off because you need to 'spread the production out', then what would be the point of having all those upgrades?

As I noted, I think the exact opposite effect should occur. There should be a reward for specializing out your econ as it is costing you precious time and resources to do so. Without that reward, the game's econ model will go out the window and many of the things players can do (peacefully) to increase the econ will be wasted.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 12:58:21 PM)

Hi, I think improvments are worth while but you have to remember that in each province there is a point where once reached further efforts are wasted. This is a pre industrial period. Adding weavers to produce more textiles only works to a point. Once you get to where all the textiles that can be handled in a month are being produced and moved more production is pointless.
Generally I have each province producing it's "specialty" However I don't think I max any province out in production. I don't spend a great deal of time trying to optimize production.
Each turn I check to see what food production must be. Then I divide this total by my controlled provinces. (Example if as Sweden I required 60 food next turn I would divide 60 by my 4 controlled provinces and then set each to growing 15 food) I ignore my protected areas because I can't control them so I allow them to produce my surplus.
Then using the labor that is not growing food I produce the "speacialty" item in each province to meet demand. Excess labor is used for developments/labor what ever items I will still be short of or will require to develop province.
I use trade to agument shortages or convert surplus items to cash.
I am not suggesting you should not try to get more production just that there is no point in producing amounts that result in waste. Since it is easier to just produce amounts below the thresh hold that result in waste. If you know in advance that producing more then 10 horse will result in waste just stop at 10 horses and move the labor to another product. You get more items and there is no waste. I don't think I've ever seen any thing in the waste basket



jchastain -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 2:30:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Once you get those 10 horses in a province don't "produce" any more there.


Just for clarity sake, waste is computed on a national level, not on a provincial level. You begin seeing waste whenever you produce more than 10 horses for your nation. It doesn't matter if they all came from a single province or if they were spread out among many.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 5:33:32 PM)

Hi, AH no wonder I never see any waste. You don't actually get a "waste" number (like on National Econ screen for expenses)
You'd have to compute production-use +- stockpile to see what was being wasted. (If I produce 12 use 4 and have 7 added to stockpile I wasted 1)
I don't get that nosey. As long as the number on the bottom (what I will have after I produce/consume/waste) is higher then what I require I leave it alone.



Hard Sarge -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 5:42:44 PM)

Hi Morg
there is a screen that shows what is being wasted (don't remember where it is at, I seen it once and got fed up)




jchastain -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 5:55:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
Hi Morg
there is a screen that shows what is being wasted (don't remember where it is at, I seen it once and got fed up)


It is the economy report. Put the mouse cursor at the bottom of the map and several tabs appear. Click on the one to the far left to bring up the report. The up arrow at the top right makes it consume the majority of the screen so you can see it. Be sure to scroll down to the relevant information.



Mynok -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 5:59:04 PM)

It's on the economy report Hard Sarge. Near the bottom. (EDIT: Ooops..too slow)

Great (sleepy?) minds think alike, Mogami. I went through and did just that scenario with Turkey last night after I read this thread. Switched from max on primary commodities to getting my total output (upper right of province mgmt screen) to max non-waste levels, then put the rest in labor or development (mostly development for Turkey, as the labor ROI is really low until factories are built).

I trade heavily to turn excess cotton, spice, luxuries and textiles into money. There's a huge demand for cotton from the AI's of the world so I have no problem getting 100+ money coming via trade every month (which is impressive in Turkey's economy--that's almost as much as their tax income).

Now my biggest problem is getting the textiles to make the units needed, as Turkey has lots of military upgrading to do.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 6:11:32 PM)

Hi, I wonder...?? Does population have any effect on waste or is it just straight "produce 10 horses total and then begin to experiance waste on number in excess of 10"
Because if I am experiancing waste it was not enough for me to even notice before (now I have to go check that screen)
I develop in layers. First I increase, farms then the specialty item, and then banks, All the while watching population. When population is maxed I build a road. I'm not a great builder of barracks. (I build them but the program for barracks is 1 in 1 province per year)
When I aquire a new province I build walls and guns (unless it can already hold 4+ Div)
I fiddle with production from turn to turn only to the extent that I make sure I am growing more food then I require. I shift labor around to get what I need for the overall build program. (major provinces might make extra labor 1 turn and increased iron the next)
Every turn my surplus has increased it only goes down when I spend it building a unit or development.



jchastain -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 6:23:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I wonder...?? Does population have any effect on waste or is it just straight "produce 10 horses total and then begin to experiance waste on number in excess of 10"


I ran several scenarios and plotted out the result and it appeared to me that it is a function only of total national production and nothing else. As you state, if you produce more than 10 horses, then you begin to experience waste. That said, my conclusions are based purely upon observation so there might be factors I didn't consider. But I did try changing population, farms, factories, feudalism and a number of other factors and my conclusions held thue through all the tests I performed.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 6:30:13 PM)

Hi, I know feudalism consumes a portion of what is produced. (1 per level of feudalism)
I do away with it as soon as I can (by the end of first year I no longer have any levels)
I don't really like the levies and merchants make up the dues after you have banks.
Of course I doubt I could get rid of it in Turkey or Russia in 1 year.
I have not looked what is the level in France in 1792 (should be pretty low considering the head lopping, I mean who is raising troops and stuff? Any French noble still wearing his powdered wig would be raising troops in Britian. )
I usally run Sweden (it's small and easy to handle)



mogami -> Screen shot (7/12/2005 6:46:14 PM)

Hi, Can someone post a screen shot of this waste menu and how to access it? Thanks
I just looked and could not find it.



Mynok -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 6:48:07 PM)


It's ok to not build barracks in more developed countries like Sweden. For Turkey (and maybe Russia and Spain), getting barracks levels to where decent units can be built (and some upgrades can be had) is A Number One Critical Priority Alpha.




mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 6:56:38 PM)

Hi, Sweden is not developed. But Sweden cannot support expanding the Army right away so the barracks are not required right away. The situation for expanding the Army in Turkey and Russia is even worse. I don't even think about going to war before I have the economy on the rise. Wars cost money.



Hard Sarge -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 7:09:39 PM)

there how that

hmmm according to this Food is also wasted ?



[image]local://upfiles/1438/7C943359FA914788BCEFE2F3B7853EF6.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 7:18:35 PM)

trade screen for the same month



[image]local://upfiles/1438/AF83B6D3C2CE4F4C8B1CAD5A73A2F287.jpg[/image]



jchastain -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 7:23:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

hmmm according to this Food is also wasted ?



You are right! I would suspect it has a similar structure then but the threshold is much higher. With a few more data points we can likely determine the exact formulas.

(EDIT: By the way, the economy report has an "Income Report" that shows how much of each commodity was actually produced. I generally use that as it is actual production versus the estimate that is given below the sliders.)



Mynok -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 7:44:07 PM)


quote:

Hi, Sweden is not developed. But Sweden cannot support expanding the Army right away so the barracks are not required right away. The situation for expanding the Army in Turkey and Russia is even worse. I don't even think about going to war before I have the economy on the rise. Wars cost money.


I'm not talking about expanding the army. I'm talking about building corps so one can defend oneself and building artillery and cavalry so one has a balanced force. That is Turkey's problem. Irr Cav are useless for anything but running down routed enemy and scouting.

Against the AI, it is pretty easy to buy time as Austria and Russia are occupied. Against humans, a smart Russian is going to see easy pickings down south and the Turks will be hard pressed to defend themselves without a combined arms force. Turkey just has no maneuver units to work with and no leaders. Winning battles requires heavy quantitative superiority, which cannot be accomplished within the army structure without corps.



ahauschild -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 9:33:50 PM)

The Turks do have a Moral problem overall, their level of Baracks and general large quantity of Irr or Militia compounds this. Against Russia, unless it is a determind attack this is not so bad, but against the much higher quality Austrian troops a human vs. human engangment would not be pretty.



Montbrun -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 9:49:23 PM)

I can definately see that wastage of food. The ability to store and transport consumables during this period was a major challenge. For example, during the ACW, the Confederacy actually over-produced food stuffs, that, unfortuately, tended to rot in storage at the train depots, for lack of transport....

Brad



jchastain -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 10:06:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

I can definately see that wastage of food. The ability to store and transport consumables during this period was a major challenge. For example, during the ACW, the Confederacy actually over-produced food stuffs, that, unfortuately, tended to rot in storage at the train depots, for lack of transport....

Brad


Unless food is vastly different from other commodities, I suspect that waste happens due to overproduction and not due to overstockpiling. The game tends to "consume" stockpiles of consumer demanded goods.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/12/2005 11:27:55 PM)

Hi, My waste as Sweden in 1798 (1792 scenario)

[image]local://upfiles/944/FBEBAE71C86D496C8E5540A07B02E7DC.jpg[/image]



LaVean -> RE: How waste works... (7/13/2005 10:47:26 PM)

Western Euope had an excellent canal system which is sill in use today...I think that even in present times it would stun you the amount of barage tonnage compared with truck tonnage in Germany.



mogami -> RE: How waste works... (7/13/2005 10:53:50 PM)

Hi, Transport is only part of the problem. How do you move material to the canal and from the canal? hand carts?
Just how much traffic could these canals handle in 1792?
Hauling coal and coke to iron works increased to ludericris levels would result in what impact to canal traffic of food?

I think it makes a huge difference in how we look at game. (Modern economic genius or period National leader)

Modern Genius:"It costs 5 waste to gain 1 extra why bother?"
Period leader"I can get another 1 point? Excellent"



LaVean -> RE: How waste works... (7/13/2005 11:11:33 PM)

Canals were radically expanded during the period the game covers. As an example the Nantes - Brest Canal was built to move Navl Stores from Nantes to Brest without exposing them to the British Ships on Blockade. The Nantes end of the Canal hookd up with the Loire River and was all connect to the Ille and Villane making it possible to go north to Rennes and St Malo. This is just local traffic. It was possible in this time period to go from Brest to Amsterdam via canal an river.

By the end of this period there were very few cities of any consequence that were not on a river or canal.

In answer to your specific question...most industrial facilities were located river or canalside. The only exception to the canal/river situation were places like Aubusson which had some other specific geographc advantages but even still were not all that far from water transport.



Naomi -> RE: How waste works... (7/14/2005 12:06:27 AM)

Inspired by all the threads you guys offered, I came up with an idea about waste. Waste may be just a collective term that represents a range of uncontrollable events that include, besides waste (whether due to natural deterioration, failed/limited storage capacity, or insufficient/improper safeguard against sabotage/theft/disaster), generous doling out to the citizens of the produce as it piles up, corruption, sumptuous court balls/parties, and the like. Even so, it yet remains mysterious that so large a portion of production - up to 90% - has to vanish.

Designers ought to have explained more about it in the manuel, or simply chosen a more suitable term, so as to make us less inclined to argue about it. My suggestion is that waste simply be left out and to let levies and taxes eat more into production. [:'(]



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