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pauk -> PH results (10/2/2005 11:35:08 PM)
greetings, I'm curious about other players achivements on Pearl Harbour attack. In my 6 or 7 (PBEM) start i only once managed to sink capital ship (one BB). I recall that other players stated a better result on turn one, but what i am especially interested is average rate of capital ships sunk at PH. My settings are standard, i guess. All Vals set on airfield attack, and Kates set to 3000 ft...

JJB647 -> RE: PH results (10/2/2005 11:50:44 PM)
I've done 3-4 PBEM games. Never had a ship sunk at PH on turn 1. I stay 2-3 days depending on ships sunk on turn 2. I also use all Vals on airfield and Kates on Port attack at various heights.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: PH results (10/2/2005 11:53:47 PM)
You should be able to sink more ships than this. How close do you get to PH? The shorter the better I would think. Also be sure to get the best leaders you can for your aircraft.

pauk -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 12:10:23 AM)
distance was standard: two hexes.... but leaders could be the key - i never changed daitai leaders because i need PP for something else...however, IIRC, leaders are decent....

WiTP_Dude -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 12:13:36 AM)
I think some of the bombers have fighter leaders IIRC. It might help to give them bomber leaders.

CapAndGown -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 6:12:09 AM)
Why would a leader make a difference? The main variables seem to be whether the Kates use torps or bombs, which is out of your hands, and whether you get penetrating hits with your bombs, which is also out of your hands. Altitude setting could make a difference: lower altitude = more hits. But for individual planes, I would think it would be the pilot of the plane that determined whether they got a hit, not the leader of the formation.

WiTP_Dude -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 6:54:41 AM)
I don't know. The pilot leaders have air ratings so I would guess they do something. I've sunk four battleships once before and usually get a couple on other occasions. I brought two extra CVLs in this AAR example but 7-9 torpedos in several battleships will usually yield you some results: Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 112,68 Japanese aircraft A5M4 Claude x 9 A6M2 Zero x 116 D3A Val x 133 B5N Kate x 161 F1M2 Pete x 8 E13A1 Jake x 4 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 P-26A x 5 P-36A Mohawk x 3 P-40B Tomahawk x 15 Japanese aircraft losses A5M4 Claude: 11 destroyed A6M2 Zero: 1 damaged D3A Val: 12 destroyed, 38 damaged B5N Kate: 34 destroyed, 59 damaged F1M2 Pete: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged E13A1 Jake: 2 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 8 destroyed, 5 damaged P-26A: 14 destroyed P-36A Mohawk: 17 destroyed, 13 damaged P-40B Tomahawk: 79 destroyed, 27 damaged PBY Catalina: 29 destroyed, 34 damaged SBD Dauntless: 19 destroyed, 7 damaged B-18A Bolo: 14 destroyed, 15 damaged A-20B Boston: 9 destroyed, 6 damaged B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged Allied Ships BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 9, on fire, heavy damage BB Nevada, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, on fire CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, on fire BB California, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 2, on fire CA San Francisco, Torpedo hits 1, on fire DMS Perry, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AK Alchiba, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Maryland, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage DD Hull, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Arizona, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 9, on fire, heavy damage DD Shaw, Bomb hits 1, on fire CL Detroit, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage DD Aylwin, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, on fire AK Hirondelle, Torpedo hits 1, on fire DD Dale, Torpedo hits 1, on fire DD Blue, Bomb hits 1, on fire AV Curtiss, Bomb hits 1, on fire CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1

pauk -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 12:13:51 PM)
hmmm.... always learning about this game. It is interesting that i always change leaders and give new leaders with adequate description (bomber leader for bomber group, fighter for fighter, etc...) but never came to idea to do it with KB at the begining of the game (i guess i supposed that default settings will work fine[:(]) thanks for help Dude, i have to experimente with leaders in my next PBEM starts...although i agree with cap, i think it could be a key for it.... what do you rest of guys think? i would like to hear more results from you guys

Apollo11 -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 1:57:09 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: pauk hmmm.... always learning about this game. It is interesting that i always change leaders and give new leaders with adequate description (bomber leader for bomber group, fighter for fighter, etc...) but never came to idea to do it with KB at the begining of the game (i guess i supposed that default settings will work fine[:(]) thanks for help Dude, i have to experimente with leaders in my next PBEM starts...although i agree with cap, i think it could be a key for it.... what do you rest of guys think? i would like to hear more results from you guys If you look at my XLS (Excel) with all leaders you can see that KB leaders are top notch (Fighter, Dive Bomber and Torpedo Bomber) and that there is almost no use to change them for someone else... What happened above is that new CVLs are introduced and with those new torpedo bomber squadrons are present - more squadrons means more chance that some of them will use torpedoes instead of bombs... Leo "Apollo1"

WiTP_Dude -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 3:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apollo11 Hi all, If you look at my XLS (Excel) with all leaders you can see that KB leaders are top notch (Fighter, Dive Bomber and Torpedo Bomber) and that there is almost no use to change them for someone else... What happened above is that new CVLs are introduced and with those new torpedo bomber squadrons are present - more squadrons means more chance that some of them will use torpedoes instead of bombs... Leo "Apollo1" I don't know if it is that easy. This would mean 6 CVs will usually sink 0 or 1 BB but 6 CVs and 2 CVL will sink 3-5 BB. The 2 CVL only carry a handful of bombers and can't make that much of a difference IMO.

Apollo11 -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 3:46:48 PM)
Hi all, We were told that it's a dice roll. More groups = more chance that you roll the dice... Leo "Apollo11"

Yamato hugger -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 6:10:28 PM)
I dont know, but its been my experience that the 800kg bomb does just as much damage as the torpedo in the game. Real life. 2 BBs were "sunk" (in game terms anyway, sunk meaning out of the war) at PH. 1 to torps, 1 to a 800kg bomb.

Feinder -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 6:14:31 PM)
LtFighter just sank 3x BBs in our PBEM game. Damaged the other 5. I think all the Kates carried torps (a LOT of torp hits). -F-

pauk -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 8:50:02 PM)
ah, my PH attacks are something like this: 1. Allied Ships BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, on fire BB California, Bomb hits 5, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3 BB Nevada, Bomb hits 7, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire AVD Hulbert, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DD Helm, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 5, on fire CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1, on fire Allied ground losses: 284 casualties reported Guns lost 5 Airbase hits 34 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 117 Aircraft Attacking: 16 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 26 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 26 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 17 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 16 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 18 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 16 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 24 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 26 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 2. (copied from AAR) Allied Ships AE Pyro, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage DD Cummings, Bomb hits 1, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Nevada, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB California, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2 BB Maryland, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1 DD Hull, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1 AK Manini, Bomb hits 1 CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, on fire DD Mugford, Bomb hits 1, on fire CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Aylwin, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage I'm problably just most unfortunate player in the world....

Yamato hugger -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 9:48:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pauk ah, my PH attacks are something like this: 1. Allied Ships BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, on fire BB California, Bomb hits 5, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3 BB Nevada, Bomb hits 7, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire AVD Hulbert, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DD Helm, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 5, on fire CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1, on fire Allied ground losses: 284 casualties reported Guns lost 5 Airbase hits 34 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 117 Aircraft Attacking: 16 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 26 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 26 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 17 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 16 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 18 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 16 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 24 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 26 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 2. (copied from AAR) Allied Ships AE Pyro, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage DD Cummings, Bomb hits 1, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Nevada, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB California, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2 BB Maryland, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1 DD Hull, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1 AK Manini, Bomb hits 1 CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, on fire DD Mugford, Bomb hits 1, on fire CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Aylwin, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage I'm problably just most unfortunate player in the world.... None of this means a thing without a post from the other side stating what the actual damage was.

Oznoyng -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 10:04:57 PM)
I ran 200 trials of PH attacks. The way I did the tests, I set up a head to head game and ran a day at a time, recording sys and float damage each day for each BB at PH for three turns. Yeah, I really did this 200 times. It was pretty boring, but I was morbidly curious since my PH attacks always seemed to suck. The first set of 100 were with no changes to scenario orders at start. Of the 100, 98 or 99 resulted in less than 2 BB sunk. Even with the couple of trials with 2 sunk, neither matched the historical damage done at PH since the BB that did not sink were all lightly damaged compared to the BB that were raised and repaired historically. I ran each trial for three days (three one day turns) and less than 10 of 100 trials exceeded historical results even after 3 days of attacks. The second set of trials, I changed things around. The most important change made was dividing all Kate groups. The results from those trials were better, with average 1st day results still below historical, but with a few better than historical (at least one trial resulted in 5 BB's sunk on the first day). After three days of attacks, the max sunk was 7 BB in one trial. I think there was a pair of trials where 6 BB were sunk. I can't find the sheets I recorded the results on and I'm afraid I might have accidentally thrown them out when I last cleaned my pigp - er study.

Feinder -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 10:11:45 PM)
What does "dividing a Kate group" mean? -F-

Nikademus -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 10:12:28 PM)
4 BB's sunk i believe is my best result. On average its usually 1. I always use half (3 squadrons) of my DB's to bomb the airfields and the other half to port attack along with all the Kates. Destroying all those grounded planes is in some ways even more important than hitting the ships but 3 squadrons is usually enough from my experiences.

Oznoyng -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 10:27:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder What does "dividing a Kate group" mean? -F- [image]local://upfiles/11730/7773C0C6A0AA4D55AC1E40CC673FC528.gif[/image]

ltfightr -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 10:58:25 PM)
I never though of that that would give you 12x more rolls for torpedo attacks.

Oznoyng -> RE: PH results (10/3/2005 11:32:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ltfightr I never though of that that would give you 12x more rolls for torpedo attacks. It gives you 3x as many rolls (12 extra), but each "good roll" is not as good since a good roll means 6 or 7 torp attacks rather than 21 or whatever. The upside is that you aren't as likely to strike out, the downside is you are more likely to hit a double or triple than a home run. Given how often my PH tests seem to strike out with the standard attack settings, I prefer to go for triples, doubles, or even singles. Hitting with torpedos is vital to sinking ships, since float damage is far greater from a torp. When you get few torp hits, your PH generally sucks. This attack option doesn't always work, but on average it the results are far better and even come close to historical losses on occasion.

Charles2222 -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 4:18:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pauk greetings, I'm curious about other players achivements on Pearl Harbour attack. In my 6 or 7 (PBEM) start i only once managed to sink capital ship (one BB). I recall that other players stated a better result on turn one, but what i am especially interested is average rate of capital ships sunk at PH. My settings are standard, i guess. All Vals set on airfield attack, and Kates set to 3000 ft... I did post some time ago a loose account of my restart attempts from the standard scen15 with no changes. Keep in mind that you have only 4 Kate groups 'possibly' attacking with torpedoes, not 6. I found that 90% of the time you will have only one or no Kate groups attack with torps. I had never tested just how many BB's were sank, because most of the time I was too disgusted to check and didn't feel like going through all the trouble of loading up the Allied side, plus a little bit of the mystique of the game vanishes when you know how many were sank right off the bat. If I get one or fewer Kates attacking with torps it's restart time. For the few times I have checked the results of the PH attack, I have not once found a single ship that had fire ratings (after just one day mind you) in double digits (talk about fire control!!!!). Now I'm so used to the PH attack going lousy that I switch off the combat reports and animations for that first turn, and just look at how many torp hits there were on the next turn and go with it if it sounds reasonable.

spence -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 4:42:05 AM)
As Allied in 2 PBEM starts my opponents sank 1 and zero BBs. One AI start had 3 BBs sunk - that is the most in my experience. In all cases there was only one raid on Dec 7 and no follow-up raids.

Apollo11 -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 12:12:31 PM)
Hi all, quote: ORIGINAL: Oznoyng I ran 200 trials of PH attacks. The way I did the tests, I set up a head to head game and ran a day at a time, recording sys and float damage each day for each BB at PH for three turns. Yeah, I really did this 200 times. It was pretty boring, but I was morbidly curious since my PH attacks always seemed to suck. The first set of 100 were with no changes to scenario orders at start. Of the 100, 98 or 99 resulted in less than 2 BB sunk. Even with the couple of trials with 2 sunk, neither matched the historical damage done at PH since the BB that did not sink were all lightly damaged compared to the BB that were raised and repaired historically. I ran each trial for three days (three one day turns) and less than 10 of 100 trials exceeded historical results even after 3 days of attacks. The second set of trials, I changed things around. The most important change made was dividing all Kate groups. The results from those trials were better, with average 1st day results still below historical, but with a few better than historical (at least one trial resulted in 5 BB's sunk on the first day). After three days of attacks, the max sunk was 7 BB in one trial. I think there was a pair of trials where 6 BB were sunk. I can't find the sheets I recorded the results on and I'm afraid I might have accidentally thrown them out when I last cleaned my pigp - er study. Division of Kate groups on KB was also my "secret" strategy for turn #1... [;)] BTW, remember to put new leaders for those divided Kate groups! Leo "Apollo11"

pauk -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 12:40:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger quote: ORIGINAL: pauk ah, my PH attacks are something like this: 1. Allied Ships BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, on fire BB California, Bomb hits 5, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3 BB Nevada, Bomb hits 7, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire AVD Hulbert, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage DD Helm, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 5, on fire CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1, on fire Allied ground losses: 284 casualties reported Guns lost 5 Airbase hits 34 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 117 Aircraft Attacking: 16 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 26 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 26 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 17 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 16 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 18 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 16 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 24 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 26 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 25 x B5N Kate bombing at 4000 feet 2. (copied from AAR) Allied Ships AE Pyro, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage DD Cummings, Bomb hits 1, on fire BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire BB Nevada, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage BB California, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2 BB Maryland, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1 DD Hull, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1 AK Manini, Bomb hits 1 CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 2, on fire DD Mugford, Bomb hits 1, on fire CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, on fire DD Aylwin, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage I'm problably just most unfortunate player in the world.... None of this means a thing without a post from the other side stating what the actual damage was. Sorry Yamato but i think it is not going to happend since this is from PBEM. But, i'm pretty sure that none of BB (example 2) had sys damage greater than 65, and for #1 i convinced that the damage is light. How do i know? did some tests... well, it is pretty sad that japanese player have to do "magic" if he want to sink even one crappy BB. I do not count tests against AI and H2H. They offered much better results than PBEM. I dont know why.

Feinder -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 3:16:28 PM)
I do believe folks when they say they have experienced weak PH strikes. But all I can say is that, all of my PH strikes (against me), have been quite painful (LtFighter's most recents ranking #2). But in all my games it's been 2 - 4 BBs sunk, usually another in very bad shape. Usually 2 more with "medium" (far from lethal) damage, and one lightly damaged. -F-

Charles2222 -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 4:07:54 PM)
If the theory I have is correct, you would see significant differences between PBEM and against the AI. I haven't tested being on the Allied end of PH but once, but for all my IJ games against the AI the torpedo amount is usually pretty dreadful. Whether PBEM or not, it looks like both attacks (#1 and #2) were done by only one Kate group (one of them done much worse than the other however). As I said, from the approximately 40-60 laods I've had under the various versions of this game (against the AI always) it's that way 90% of the time, with either one or kate groups attacking with torpedoes. Looks like all that training the IJN did with attacking PH with torps did no good at all.

Nikademus -> RE: PH results (10/4/2005 4:10:05 PM)
There's always Pry's Dec8th start scenario..... [;)]

Charles2222 -> RE: PH results (10/5/2005 1:44:47 PM)
I have tried that once, but for some reason went away from it. I might have a look at it again sometime. Perhaps I thought that the damage done wasn't truly historic. I was probably of the thinking that any alterations that were done were done to scen15, only, when most of the patches came out. I mean do you think that Matrix goes out and changes all 16 scenarois for every new patch? It didn't happen that way with SPWAW.

Andrew Brown -> RE: PH results (10/5/2005 2:22:08 PM)
In my latest PBEM start as the Allies, using CHS 1.06, I had one BB sunk at PH.

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