Darwin and PM defensible? (Full Version)

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Crimguy -> Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 9:27:58 PM)

TO MY OPPONENTS KINDLY DO NOT READ THIS MESSAGE. THANKS FOR YOUR HONESTY.
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I am playing two pbems as the Allies, one is at 12/30/1941. I received SigInts that my opponent has loaded divisions set for Port Moresby and Darwin. I have the 40th USA on board AP's destined for Noumea, and currently located pretty close to their destination. Is it too early to mount a defense of these positions?

I figure the 40th can put up a decent fight, but the Japs surely can reinforce with two more divisions faster than I can get them from the States, or get the PP to convert an Aussie division or two.



jrlans -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 9:45:20 PM)

Hmm depends on the forces in the area. Have you evaced any DEI forces? Whats your navy like in darwin is POW and Repluse anywhere nearby?. Where is KB?

If your oppenet splits KB you could be in for trouble if however he hasnt you might be able to defend one or the other also how many A/C do you have ready to oppose any landings?

All these thing need to be accounted for also if you think you have time you could run the american CVs over at flank and drop there AC off at either base for a "fun" little surprise for you opponet. (Serves 2 purposes gets you realy good ace pilots for later and chews up some of your opponets good pilots without risking your cap ships)

Also where do you think your opponet is going is he going to try to take out all of OZ? Or is he just after darwin and the northern OZ bases?



Yamato hugger -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 9:50:41 PM)

Darwin doesnt really do him any good. You can easily re-take it whenever you want, or if he tries to hold it, you simply go around him and up into the SRA and leave him behind.

Edit: All the Jap is going to do in northern Aus is train your ground units for you. Yes, he can keep you from bombing a few minor resource centers (which he doesnt need anyway), but he isnt going to do you any serious harm.

Morseby on the other hand is another kettle of fish. Unless you have had a chance to get there in force (ie 2 - 3 divisions), if the Jap wants it he is going to take it.



pauk -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 10:04:12 PM)

hm, little bit off topic, but this idea comes to my mind... I guess that you get something like this "x division is loaded and heads towards PM"?

What exactly intel reports in this case:?

a) division with PP points for (example) PM loaded and sent to any other base?

b) division with PP for any other base and sent to PM?

if the answer is b) then this would be nice trick. Just imagine, you are planing to invade Noumea but you sent your invasion fleet towards Auckland or Fiji - you can switch target latter.

Of course, if you know that divsion x prepares for Noumea but heads for Auckland, you wont be folished with this....



Feinder -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 10:41:00 PM)

Short answer is that he will take PM if he wants it. However, you can just B-17 it to death in the future.

Darwin, he could take also, but as stated, you can take it back sooner than later. It would take a lot of effort for him to hold it, because you've got something like 6 Aussie Divs. It will take a month or so for them to even get there, but you can grind him down.

-F-



Oliver Heindorf -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 10:55:24 PM)

a quick strike to both locations - you cant face it now . PM is more hopeloss then Darwin. At OZ just try to stop him - in 8/42 you have enough land troops sto stop him and counter attack. mass tropps and aircraft for defense asap at darwin and you might be in the opportunity to sent 250+ aircraft against him. against 250 aircraft changed on a daily basia from other bases he cant do much. sveint and later rob tried it - they failed.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/11/2005 11:30:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

TO MY OPPONENTS KINDLY DO NOT READ THIS MESSAGE. THANKS FOR YOUR HONESTY.
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I am playing two pbems as the Allies, one is at 12/30/1941. I received SigInts that my opponent has loaded divisions set for Port Moresby and Darwin. I have the 40th USA on board AP's destined for Noumea, and currently located pretty close to their destination. Is it too early to mount a defense of these positions?

I figure the 40th can put up a decent fight, but the Japs surely can reinforce with two more divisions faster than I can get them from the States, or get the PP to convert an Aussie division or two.


Crimguy, I would agree with the above statements. I am at about the same date in my PBEM game and I figure if the Japs want to take a particular base they are going to do it. I would make him fight for both though. If he is throwing multiple divisions at PM and Darwin at least he is probably not attacking the South Pacific giving you time for a build up there.

I wonder at the reason for attacking Darwin so early in the game and the only thing I could come up with is to restrict your line of retreat from the DEI.

Here's a link to another thread about defending bases in that area - its actually about Rabaul. Maybe something there will help. Good luck.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=939919


[image]local://upfiles/17264/171F50DEAF004DD38F702DC1D71EA668.gif[/image]



Tom Hunter -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 12:27:31 AM)

They key to having any chance of holding PM is building up the bases at Cooktown and Thursday Island.

Do you have units heading for those two locations? Supply on the way, is the Australian armor heading to Cooktown to speed up the completion of the airstrip?

If the answer to these questions is no, then fly some Wirraways into Port Moresby, bomb him as he lands and then give up on the place.

In WitP if you want to hold something you have to start preparing the defense months in advance. If your not doing this your going to have real trouble.



John 3rd -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 12:36:10 AM)

Some players simply abandon these posts as 'undefensable.' I, generally, do not agree with that thoughtline. As the Allies, you KNOW you will eventually have overwelming power. It is far better to contest every inch and bleed the Japanese instead of letting them waltz in and get a simple victory.

The other point to add is that if the Japanese get early 'freebies' then they have more time, with complete, non-disrupted units, to dig in and make things worse later on when the Allied counter-attack starts.



Tom Hunter -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 12:58:07 AM)

I'm a very strong advocate of fighting for everything.

But there is a real art to that. Sending the 40th division into a location that you cannot supply and has no supporting bases in range is not fighting for everything, it's just stupid.

But sending it when you have supporting bases, airpower in the area, supply on the way and have a plan that could work to win the battle can be smart.

Crim did not really say which set of circumstances he was in, hence my post



Slotermeyer -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 1:27:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

I figure the 40th can put up a decent fight, but the Japs surely can reinforce with two more divisions faster than I can get them from the States, or get the PP to convert an Aussie division or two.

You don't need PP to convert Aussie divisions that march overland to Darwin or other points in Australia. Unless you're using CHS, you can use the railroad to move divisions to Darwin quickly.

_____________________________

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Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 1:54:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

They key to having any chance of holding PM is building up the bases at Cooktown and Thursday Island.

Do you have units heading for those two locations? Supply on the way, is the Australian armor heading to Cooktown to speed up the completion of the airstrip?

If the answer to these questions is no, then fly some Wirraways into Port Moresby, bomb him as he lands and then give up on the place.

In WitP if you want to hold something you have to start preparing the defense months in advance. If your not doing this your going to have real trouble.


Supply and engineers have already been sent to cooktown, most of them savaged from the DEI. I think he is going for Darwin because I've been using it as a base of attack with LBA against his southermost holdings in the DEI, and have invested a bit of troops and supplies to build it up and keep it going. He's been sending recon flights for a week.

I'm going to bug out of PM - I've sent some Wirraways and an engineer batallion there but there services will be more useful elsewhere. I can keep the 40th USA at Brisbane or Noumea and keep the fort down from there.



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 1:58:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slotermeyer
You don't need PP to convert Aussie divisions that march overland to Darwin or other points in Australia. Unless you're using CHS, you can use the railroad to move divisions to Darwin quickly.


Very true - in fact, I am not concerned about the long-term chances in Darwin, but more about PM, and the prospects of defending it. I think I can keep it supplied, but I do not think I can get the needed force (at least 2 divisions) in place in time. My opponent has only taken Lae, but that is a good base for him to have, and he can dominate the skies from there to say the least.

Maybe I'll work up from Guadalcanal before he gets there. Might be a waste if he's not bothereing, but if he is he could be a bit surprised to find 2 divisions sitting there.



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 2:00:06 AM)

It was pretty cool, actually, since I sometimes forget to read my SigInt. On two lines, one after the other, it said something like this:

13th Division is loaded on Jensen Maru and heading for Port Moresby
15th Division is loaded on Kintetsu Maru and heading for Darwin

Trouble is, I don't have intelligence as to where either of these ships or TF's are, so it's unclear how far away they are. The 40th is about 4 days sail from PM or Darwin. POW and Repulse are nearby, my airforce is decimated in that region. All 3 carriers are pretty far away, out of harms reach (I lost both Lex and E on another recent pbem, so I'm a bit conservative with my carriers until they get some real aircraft on board, and the zero bonus disappears).




ADavidB -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 2:02:41 AM)

quote:

Supply and engineers have already been sent to cooktown, most of them savaged from the DEI. I think he is going for Darwin because I've been using it as a base of attack with LBA against his southermost holdings in the DEI, and have invested a bit of troops and supplies to build it up and keep it going. He's been sending recon flights for a week.

I'm going to bug out of PM - I've sent some Wirraways and an engineer batallion there but there services will be more useful elsewhere. I can keep the 40th USA at Brisbane or Noumea and keep the fort down from there.


He can cut you off in Darwin if he lands at either side - do you really want to have those troops caught there? Only keep troops there that you can afford to lose.

At this point in your game, your opponent would love to catch your better units out of range of support. be wary of extending too far.

BTW - are you sure that he isn't heading for something more important further down the Australian coast? BTW - where are your carriers? Can you intercept his TFs?

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 2:12:05 AM)

Carriers are getting sun tans south of Pearl. KB disappeared, intact, about 2 days ago from PI, and for all I know could be steaming into that lake of water between Noumea, Port Moresby, and Brisbane.



ADavidB -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 2:18:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Carriers are getting sun tans south of Pearl. KB disappeared, intact, about 2 days ago from PI, and for all I know could be steaming into that lake of water between Noumea, Port Moresby, and Brisbane.


Send your subs out to picket-line the "dead zones". You will find out really quickly where the KB is headed.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi



PimpYourAFV -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 3:33:16 AM)


Very interesting read. Please let us know how the defence goes Crimguy. [:D]



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 4:36:17 AM)

What, specifically do you mean by the Dead Zones? I've been keeping them at straits and other choke points, mostly by the Philippeanes, Batavia, Darwin, and Espiritu Santu.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Carriers are getting sun tans south of Pearl. KB disappeared, intact, about 2 days ago from PI, and for all I know could be steaming into that lake of water between Noumea, Port Moresby, and Brisbane.


Send your subs out to picket-line the "dead zones". You will find out really quickly where the KB is headed.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi



saj42 -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 3:35:06 PM)

I think ADavidB means those gaps between your land based naval search aircraft coverage.

If APs are heading for Darwin & P.M. have a few subs outside the ports to hopefully intercept them (only a small chance to get a torp hit but you might get lucky!). I always keep a PT boat TF at PM to break up shore bombardments etc.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/12/2005 7:29:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

BTW - are you sure that he isn't heading for something more important further down the Australian coast? BTW - where are your carriers? Can you intercept his TFs?

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi


My thought exactly. Is Darwin a feint? Its so ealry in the war I can't see him heading for the east coast of australia for any reason other than a raid.

[image]local://upfiles/17264/5E85E03CB45840DB824DDF7CCEF6BE57.gif[/image]



Ddog -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/13/2005 11:39:01 AM)

Crim

I have to agree with Tom Hunter......It's about being able to supply and support PM. If the Japs have Rabaul, trying to get supply ships to PM without taking losses will be difficult. Remember that it is very important to ensure that you maintain enough points to avoid a Jap victory in 43 (4x your points). Instead of using BB's and CV's I would stick to a Guerilla type warfare using PT's and the like for hit and run attacks.

Just my oppinion [;)] I'm sure there are those that will disagree [:'(]

Cheers



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 9:00:09 AM)

Well, PM fell pretty easily. The Darwin invasion never emerged - it appeared he got cold feet and sent them to PM (3 divisions landed there).

On my other PBEM, that is just a few days ahead, things are much more interesting. He's sunk Lex, E, and yesterday took down POW and Repulse off the coast of Australia. Didn't even see KB coming. It's a slaughter on the high seas.



Raverdave -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 9:27:44 AM)

Not only are they defensible, but IMHO they should never be allowed to fall.

PM must and should be fought for tooth and nail, I am yet to loose this vital piece of real estate, and as I live and breath as an allied fan boy, will willing risk the entire war to hold onto it even at the expense of the loss of the South Pacfic Islands. Loosing PM (and therefore PNG) really puts you behind the 8-ball when time comes to start your offensive. However IF you keep PM then you have THE perfect base from which to launch you offensive as early as mid '42.

Darwin should never be allowed to fall simply because it is part of MY homeland.............pride cometh before fall.[;)]



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 11:55:01 AM)

In the vanilla Map, i would be happy if he came for Darwin! No way for the Japanese to hold a foot in Northern Oz for more than 6 months. With the vanilla railroad system you're gonna have 6 australian divisions up there pretty quickly.
With AB map it' damned more tough...

PM? Well it depends on when he comes. If he arrives with 2/4 divisions ( and the entire combined fleet)before March/April there's simply no way to hold it. Remember that even if you've lost it fro Cooktown,Thursday and Cairns you can bomb the place to stoneage. In 3 months of intense bombings with 200/300 4Es PM will be undefendable for the japs



hawker -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 1:54:01 PM)

We will see that GH,we wil see[8D]



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 6:41:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Not only are they defensible, but IMHO they should never be allowed to fall.

PM must and should be fought for tooth and nail, I am yet to loose this vital piece of real estate, and as I live and breath as an allied fan boy, will willing risk the entire war to hold onto it even at the expense of the loss of the South Pacfic Islands. Loosing PM (and therefore PNG) really puts you behind the 8-ball when time comes to start your offensive. However IF you keep PM then you have THE perfect base from which to launch you offensive as early as mid '42.

Darwin should never be allowed to fall simply because it is part of MY homeland.............pride cometh before fall.[;)]


OK, so here's a hypo for you:

It's the start of the war, and things are going pretty much as anticipated. Your opponent is concentrating his forces in Malaya, the PI, and pushing southward through Borneo. You anticipate he's going to land in force at Port Moresby by 1/10/42. How do you stop him? As I see it, you can rally, at most, 4 divisions there, plus AA and CD. However, it is a long trip from all over the Pacific, leaves places such as Midway and Noumea with no defenses, and your ability to provide air cover for the area between Brisbane, Guadalcanal and PM is limited.

How do you do it? I'm not the most experienced player, but it seems impossible against a determined enemy. Bedford Forrest's adage seems to apply here.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 7:06:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

It was pretty cool, actually, since I sometimes forget to read my SigInt. On two lines, one after the other, it said something like this:

13th Division is loaded on Jensen Maru and heading for Port Moresby
15th Division is loaded on Kintetsu Maru and heading for Darwin



Thats very interesting.

Both the 13th and 15th divisions are part of China command. Each costs around 2700 PPs to activate. Unless of course he used the gamey (or at least I consider it gamey) tactic of doing a banzaii charge to disrupt them so he could change commands really cheap. Unless you are mid to late '42 and he didnt use PPs for anything else.

If he is going to do this, I suggest you move about 1/2 of the Chinese army to NE India, and send the Brit divisions to Oz. Good for the goose and all. [:-]



Crimguy -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 7:23:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Thats very interesting.

Both the 13th and 15th divisions are part of China command. Each costs around 2700 PPs to activate. Unless of course he used the gamey (or at least I consider it gamey) tactic of doing a banzaii charge to disrupt them so he could change commands really cheap. Unless you are mid to late '42 and he didnt use PPs for anything else.

If he is going to do this, I suggest you move about 1/2 of the Chinese army to NE India, and send the Brit divisions to Oz. Good for the goose and all. [:-]


The actual divisions were different - I used them to protect the innocent (the enemy is listening!)



Yamato hugger -> RE: Darwin and PM defensible? (10/15/2005 7:29:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

The actual divisions were different - I used them to protect the innocent (the enemy is listening!)


Heh, why lie? He knows what units he has going where [:D]

You should always maintain a list of what Jap units are where. He only has a dozen or so divisions available for mobile operations. And about a half dozen BDEs. If you can keep track of where they are, and where they are going, you have the advantage.



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