RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (Full Version)

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jesperpehrson -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/28/2007 11:10:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

So how can the belgians and the allies hold the dyle? In a no zoc game impossible? either with our without dutch neutrality?

The ZOC/NO ZOC rule must make a big differance to setups as discussed in part already? never used no ZOC myself seems a little too powerful for the axis for my liking is it used much?

my head is beginning to lose count of the possible openings vs bel/holland[:)]




Playing with Zocs in the surpriseimpulse makes WIF a whole different game and to honest a bit daft. Without Zocs setups becomes less important.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/28/2007 11:22:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

So how can the belgians and the allies hold the dyle? In a no zoc game impossible? either with our without dutch neutrality?

The ZOC/NO ZOC rule must make a big differance to setups as discussed in part already? never used no ZOC myself seems a little too powerful for the axis for my liking is it used much?

my head is beginning to lose count of the possible openings vs bel/holland[:)]



I decided a while back to prohibit the use of the optional rule No ZOC During Surprise when playing against the AI. It has way too big an affect to try to design and code for.



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/28/2007 11:53:12 PM)

quote:

Playing with Zocs in the surprise impulse makes WIF a whole different game and to honest a bit daft


I can see it makes a big difference but why is it daft?

It just seems to be an option that makes it very easy early in the game for the axis never thought they needed that much help



Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 12:00:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I decided a while back to prohibit the use of the optional rule No ZOC During Surprise when playing against the AI. It has way too big an affect to try to design and code for.

I tend to agree.
This option is not good for the game, gives the Axis (who are the only one to benefit from it) a too much easy time in the West, and in the East too.

I saw it used twice in a Barb 41, and twice the Dniepr was crossed in the very first impulse of Barb, which was the first big nail into the Russian's coffin. Twice the Russian was puched easily into the Caucasus and the Urals.

Lastly, I played against a guy that showed me that this option also made Germany's life much too easy in the west too, by doing a France first (not very successful, but successful enougth for us to decide to ban this option from our games from then on.



composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 12:10:34 AM)

I've never played with No ZOC on surprise, so it hasn't entered into my calculations.

There is no way to defend Netherlands or Belgium at all if you played with that option. They would both fall instantly to the might of the Wehrmacht.

My own belief is that if the Allies manage to reach and hold the Dyle line in 1940, save for the case of an Allied attack on Belgium, Germany has screwed up somewhere. The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe in 1940 are just too good against the paltry Dutch, Belgian & French armies.



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 12:24:04 AM)

quote:

save for the case of an Allied attack on Belgium

now thats an interesting thought under what circs is that a useful ploy?
My initial thought would be its the last impulse before the end of the turn hoping to get another move at the beginning of the next to advance to the rhine?



Zorachus99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 5:30:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

quote:

save for the case of an Allied attack on Belgium

now thats an interesting thought under what circs is that a useful ploy?
My initial thought would be its the last impulse before the end of the turn hoping to get another move at the beginning of the next to advance to the rhine?


Only useful if Axis is attacking Russia, or things have gone extremely wrong for a newbie German player.



jesperpehrson -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 7:06:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

quote:

Playing with Zocs in the surprise impulse makes WIF a whole different game and to honest a bit daft


I can see it makes a big difference but why is it daft?


Daft is a strong word of course and perhaps exagerated. I meant that your defense against this option is impossible, your hope is doublestacking in cities and pray for poor rolls. You just dont have enough troops to cover the whole front.



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 11:01:10 AM)

Ah I was expecting a justification as to why the no zocs on surprise was a realistic interpretation of the realities of war.
you think that rule is a little too favourable for use in normal play as well? [:)]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 12:17:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Ah I was expecting a justification as to why the no zocs on surprise was a realistic interpretation of the realities of war.
you think that rule is a little too favourable for use in normal play as well? [:)]


Yes.



brian brian -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 6:56:00 PM)

If the Germans have Rotterdam I now lean towards putting the Belgian CAV in Africa and the two INF in Liege. Just maybe they won't have a strong enough force in Rotterdam, ready to occupy Antwerp, that the BEF and the Home Fleet can vaporize them. Unlikely though. Putting the CAV down there in a 1940 set-up then risks a CP back at home, unless you want to put the Belgian FTR at home, which could be a free CW pilot if you put it in Africa. Some like to align Belgium to France though, I do not.

If the Germans don't have Rotterdam I would put the two INF in separate hexes behind Brussels and Antwerp and the CAV in Liege. I think that is the best you can get; the Germans will have the resource hex, and if they occupy that weakly (again unlikely, but Germany could be operating on a shoe-string, especially in S/O 39) the French might have a chance to attack it from a lot of hexes with HQ support, especially in good weather, but that is probably too big a risk. The actual Dyle line is held but the Germans do get a third hex on Brussels w/o a river.

Never played with no ZoC surprise and probably never will. Not allowing it against an Allied AI seems wise. Maybe letting the Axis AI have it would be interesting.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/29/2007 8:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
If the Germans have Rotterdam I now lean towards putting the Belgian CAV in Africa and the two INF in Liege. Just maybe they won't have a strong enough force in Rotterdam, ready to occupy Antwerp, that the BEF and the Home Fleet can vaporize them. Unlikely though. Putting the CAV down there in a 1940 set-up then risks a CP back at home, unless you want to put the Belgian FTR at home, which could be a free CW pilot if you put it in Africa. Some like to align Belgium to France though, I do not.

If the Germans don't have Rotterdam I would put the two INF in separate hexes behind Brussels and Antwerp and the CAV in Liege. I think that is the best you can get; the Germans will have the resource hex, and if they occupy that weakly (again unlikely, but Germany could be operating on a shoe-string, especially in S/O 39) the French might have a chance to attack it from a lot of hexes with HQ support, especially in good weather, but that is probably too big a risk. The actual Dyle line is held but the Germans do get a third hex on Brussels w/o a river.

Never played with no ZoC surprise and probably never will. Not allowing it against an Allied AI seems wise. Maybe letting the Axis AI have it would be interesting.

Thanks. This helps me a lot.



composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/30/2007 6:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066
quote:

save for the case of an Allied attack on Belgium

now thats an interesting thought under what circs is that a useful ploy?
My initial thought would be its the last impulse before the end of the turn hoping to get another move at the beginning of the next to advance to the rhine?

Only useful if Axis is attacking Russia, or things have gone extremely wrong for a newbie German player.


I would not necessarily say "only" in these instances can the Allies attack Belgium and get away with it - but a good German player (and hence a good German AI) leaves enough units in the Western theatre in S/O 39 to counter such a move until such time as the Germans have built up to invade Belgium themselves.

dale1066 is onto something with the notion of the plan for an Allied attack on Belgium - you do it late in the turn, with the hopes that it ends and you get to go first in the next turn. As the Germans must either be unprepared or fighting the USSR for an Anglo-French attack on Belgium to succeed, if you want to do it anyway when the Germans are prepared for it, that's how you would do it.

Depending on how you time it, success can save France for a few more turns, or at least force Germany to blow offensive chits where otherwise they would not have been needed. Failure, on the other hand, probably leaves France no worse off than it would have been, and indeed the French will have an extra hex row of space between the front line and Paris and a shorter line (hence deeper line) to boot.



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/30/2007 7:38:11 PM)

quote:

Some like to align Belgium to France though, I do not.


What are the disadvantages/advantages of france or CW aligning with Belguim?




Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/30/2007 7:53:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

quote:

Some like to align Belgium to France though, I do not.


What are the disadvantages/advantages of france or CW aligning with Belguim?

Aligning to the CW
Advantages :
- You setup the Belgian Gladiator in Belgian Congo, make Belgian Congo the new Belgian home country, and get back the Pilot for a CW plane.
- You gain 1 RP in Belgian Congo that is near UK, easy to ship. One extra resource, is one extra OIL you can save with the CW, which is very valuable and well beyond the simple extra RP.

Disadvantages :
- Belgian don't cooperate with French army, which forms the bulk of the army in this area, so counter attacks from Belgian / French areas will be less likely. This is not a big drawback, as counter attacks are already unlikely.

Aligning to France :
Advantages :
- Belgian cooperate with French army, which forms the bulk of the army in this area, so counter attacks from Belgian / French areas are still possible. This is not a big advantage, as counter attacks are not very likely.

Disadvantages :
- Belgian Congo has 90% chances of going Vichy, so you loose the extra Belgian Congo RP for the CW for as long as Vichy will exist. This alone is a reason for me to align Belgium to the CW.
- No extra CW pilot from Belgian AF.



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/30/2007 9:35:43 PM)

Thanks

so its mainly a question of aggressiveness on the part of the french player if they like to have a go at the germans (if given an opportunity) then it may be best for them.

alternatively a safer long term approach is to have the CW in charge

will the AI be capable of recording players moves and working out if they are an aggressive player or more passive and adjust its strategy/tactics accordingly ?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/30/2007 10:11:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Thanks

so its mainly a question of aggressiveness on the part of the french player if they like to have a go at the germans (if given an opportunity) then it may be best for them.

alternatively a safer long term approach is to have the CW in charge

will the AI be capable of recording players moves and working out if they are an aggressive player or more passive and adjust its strategy/tactics accordingly ?


No. It is too easy to game that. The AIO will play the position, not the person.



Froonp -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/30/2007 10:56:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Thanks

so its mainly a question of aggressiveness on the part of the french player if they like to have a go at the germans (if given an opportunity) then it may be best for them.

alternatively a safer long term approach is to have the CW in charge

will the AI be capable of recording players moves and working out if they are an aggressive player or more passive and adjust its strategy/tactics accordingly ?


Well, the whole Belgian army has 11 combat points so talking about "aggressiveness" about taking those units with France is going a bit too far [;)].



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/31/2007 11:41:29 AM)

well I guess its a player pref, as france how much chance of getting counter attacked while flipped do you take 1 in 10, only go for sure things, a risky 50-50 attack
For Germany some times its good to leave a tempting stack for a rash France to have a go at, after all if things do go wrong there are the OC chits as a back up. Or is that too aggressive?



composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/31/2007 7:05:57 PM)

Given the strength of the German army units compared to the French, it would have to be a weak hex indeed for the French to consider attacking it.

But even then, it would be 6-10 bps of units you're risking, a not inconsiderable amount in 39-40. If I'm going to risk losing units as the Germans, I want to risk them on attacks I'm making, not on attacks the French might make.

And, on the whole, it is a very bad idea for the French to launch attacks that might fail and blow the front wide open (in Germany's favour) during the German attack on Belgium/France. Until the situation is lost, lost, lost, they should try and preserve the army. Only once Germany's victory is clear (i.e., they have captured Paris) should the French should launch suicide attacks with the hope of killing German war materiél.



dale1066 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/31/2007 7:57:27 PM)

Oh I agree whole heartedly with you.

Its just some players are a little more rash than others, including me, especially if its late and the beer cans are piling up [:)]

re suicide attacks post paris I still like to keep enough french army to force Vichyification rather than have all of france conquoured usually a bad idea I think. Would it be useful to discuss tactics at this point in the ger-france battles or has that already been covered in the forums?




Jimm -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/31/2007 8:13:53 PM)

Are the LOC Vichy rules (ie the ones in the 98 annual "in Search of Vichy) an available option? (I had a whizz through the options thread and couldnt see it- apologies if this has been discussed previously)

definitely affects French play vs Germany.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/31/2007 8:18:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimm

Are the LOC Vichy rules (ie the ones in the 98 annual "in Search of Vichy) an available option? (I had a whizz through the options thread and couldnt see it- apologies if this has been discussed previously)

definitely affects French play vs Germany.


Not included. They are not part of RAW August 2004.



Jimm -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (8/31/2007 8:53:55 PM)

Fair comment. One for the expansion version!



cockney -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (10/5/2007 4:56:46 PM)

If the AXIS AI teamed together and If Germany went for a quick win in the east, taking out Poland and then going for the SU, with the help of Japan attacking the SU. Would Germany have any benifit in alligning the minors of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia? Would Turkey and the Finns allign and participate? Would the Italians ease pressure on the western front by attacking France from the south?



Neilster -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (10/5/2007 6:26:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cockney

If the AXIS AI teamed together and If Germany went for a quick win in the east, taking out Poland and then going for the SU, with the help of Japan attacking the SU. Would Germany have any benifit in alligning the minors of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia? Would Turkey and the Finns allign and participate? Would the Italians ease pressure on the western front by attacking France from the south?

It's a very risky strategy. France can defend against Italy quite easily due to Italian weakness and mountainous terrain and Germany usually finds itself in a 2 front war with France and the CW growing stronger every turn. The USSR can afford to take a hit in the Far East to hang in there against Germany. If the USSR survives, Germany is doomed and Japan's gains will be eventually extinguished.

Cheers, Neilster



cockney -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (10/5/2007 11:18:46 PM)

if the french keep to the mountains, the weak italians could try to do an amphib asst between spain and marselle and head in land, if french leave the mountains or the german border it opens up. I would like to try it.



composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (10/5/2007 11:54:14 PM)

If the Italians mass 2-3 divs with shore bombardment & ground support they should able to manage an invasion along the southern French coast without too much trouble, even without the benefit of surprise. Then they can ship in an HQ and another corps with their TRS (if these have survived to this point).

What cockney proposes is high risk indeed, but it has been discussed as a possibility for the Axis AIs and ought not to be totally discounted as an overall strategic plan. That said, it should have a low probability of occurence because of the risk vs. reward payoff.



Incy -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (10/8/2007 3:55:03 AM)

A problem with an incasion to circumvent the french defence is that there are no ports in the area. To maintain supply inland, you need a HQ at the coast, and that only gives supply a few hexes inland. The french can just stay in the mountain line/the ports, screen a bit inland with 1-2 weak units, and any italians will be at severe risk of loosing supply (to manouvre, weather, og having the overseas supply dinked).

For instance, the allies can send out a fleet in west med, dink the supply, flip the HQ on the coast, land a few brits, and pretty much autokill the HQ, starnding any units inland. Rule of thumb, an invasion really can't push inland without a plan to capture a port.

Of course, an invasion isn't completely useless, and might tie up critical units. But the french might choose to ignore the invasion. If the italians try to advance north without proper supply, they are not that much of a threath. If italians go within range of the frenc line OOS, they're vulnerable to getting bombed, followed by france/BEF pulling 1-2 units ont of the line 1 impulse to kill the italians.



composer99 -> RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - INNER STRATEGIES WITHIN GRAND STRATEGY (10/9/2007 8:48:36 PM)

What I would use an invasion for is to support overland attacks across the border, myself.

To be honest, normally if the French are leaving more than three or four corps vs. the Italians in 39-40, they are at great risk of not having enough units up north.

However, if the Germans are gunning for a USSR-first, then the French can easily stuff 5-6 or more corps down there, and the Italians will make no headway whatsoever.

So if Ge does USSR first, I don't think Italy can do much more than play around in the E. Med.

Edit: Now that I think about it, and overriding (and contradicting) an earlier statement of mine on this point.



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