Should I buy Now, or wait (Full Version)

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1LTRambo -> Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 3:54:51 AM)

I have been following the Empires in Arms thread for some time now and recently there was a discussion of CoG which peaked my curiosity. I want another game to play since finishing Europa Universallis and waiting for CEiA. However, I am concerned about some of the problems that I have read in some of these threads.

So, is the game solid enough to get it now or should I wait until the next patch is available?



Gem35 -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 4:45:33 AM)

Solid, the game is alot of fun, go ahead and download it.[:)]



jimwinsor -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 5:32:19 AM)

I concur. I just bought the game online a week ago, and it is quite impressive. And I'm a long time EIA enthusiast myself (bought the original grey flat box ADG version many moons ago, when it first came out).

Go for it! The game's a gem. :)



Grand_Armee -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 7:33:56 AM)

Buy it NOW! Hell, buy it yesterday! This has everything EIA had and more. True, there are minor bugs being worked out, but to tell you the truth I haven't had this much fun in a wargame for a long time...not since I played EIA with 6 fellow Marines back in the late 80's.

This game is more detailed than EIA it's true. And yes, there are some bugs, but none are enough to make the game unenjoyable. Where this game beats EIA is that in EIA if you started with Turks with crappy morale, you finished with Turks with crappy morale. In this game you can take Turkey and put out troops as good or better than anyone else depending how you play.
In this game given enough time and investment you can build a navy to take on the mighty British and win.

Dominant status for anyone but France, Britain, or Russia in EIA was next to impossible...unless you were very, VERY lucky.

I've been playing a TCP/IP game online and find it tons of fun. Now I only need to find 6 other guys and make an 8-player game.

So, yes...buy it!



Ursa MAior -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 10:41:54 AM)

I've been strugling too with this question for a time now. I've read every book about this period I could lay my hands on, and again, but due to time, money and other constraints couldnt make up my mind. Multiplayer is the most important issue for me since usually a historian-to-be -like me- can beat the AI after learning how the interface works. Seeing the problems in this area I can wait a bit longer till they are fixed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grand_Armee
Where this game beats EIA is that in EIA if you started with Turks with crappy morale, you finished with Turks with crappy morale. In this game you can take Turkey and put out troops as good or better than anyone else depending how you play.


Which is completely ahistorical. From the beginning of the 18th century until early 20th century, Kemal Atatürk's reforms, the turks couldnt field any army, which had the slightest chance against contemporary opponents (russians, english, french etc.).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grand_Armee
In this game given enough time and investment you can build a navy to take on the mighty British and win.


Which is also ahistorical although the french had a navy almost equal in number to the Royal Navy, they didnt had the chance to contest RN's control over the seas, mainly due the lack of skilled admirals killed or chased away in the early years of the revolution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grand_Armee
Dominant status for anyone but France, Britain, or Russia in EIA was next to impossible...unless you were very, VERY lucky.


Which is also accurate. Austria had continous problems with its occupied territories (e.g. Hungary) and the turks, Turkey had its own internal problems and Prussia was not big enough to become dominant. Of course when all others have bled themselves to dry they could be always the last man standing. But it is not very likely.

quote:

I've been playing a TCP/IP game online and find it tons of fun. Now I only need to find 6 other guys and make an 8-player game.

So, yes...buy it!


If the MP issue is solved count me in.

I apologize if I seemed picky, but I like a historical game to be as accurate as possible. It is not against you Grand Armee or any of the designers of the game. Being a Boney fan i think I can live with these 'liberties' in the iinterface, until EiA comes out.





ktotwf -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 11:09:04 AM)

I agree with you to a point, Ursa Maior, but no one wants to play a game where you are grimly forced to repeat history over and over. If you want that, read a book.

A little ahistoricality, with a strong backbone of historical realism, is usually best. Although, any simulation of such a short period shouldn't really go too far off.



Ursa MAior -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 12:32:51 PM)

As a student of history I search what ifs in historcal games. If a game confronts me with same (or almost the same) decisions, which the historical decisionmakers, faced then it is a game I am looking for.
If the result is more or less always the same, no matter what you do, then the interface isnt flexible enough and it isnt a good game, but LARGE turkish armies in Prussia, or a dominant Austria were NOT historical options.
I agree with you on the last sentence, but havent really see a game (not to mention a good one) which were true to the last words (shouldnt really go too far off).



carnifex -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 3:26:07 PM)

The more complex a system is the easier it is to game it. An AI Turkey will never ever contest Britain on the seas. However, a human player can invest in naval technologies, infrastructure, and eventually crank out enough ships to overwhelm even the toughest AI opponent. If you are a fan of historical what if's, then you should play the country realistically for the time period and you shouldn't have many problems.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 4:03:13 PM)

Good point Carnifex

don't complain about how the game plays, when it is not the game that is doing it

in the game, Turkey is going to have a lousy Army, but if you want to, you can work and try to make it into a good army, that is not unhistoral, you lost that, as soon as you started the game

plus I think you miss the point, France can build a Navy to match Englands, but everything has to work out right, they can't be at war with England, they have to control there borders and improve there Textile making and gain more Timber, and then they can, and if in real life they could of done these things, they could of stood a chance vs the Mighty English Fleets

but over all, it is a game, a very good game, is it real, no, but don't knock it, because you can do things in it that they didn't in real life



elmo3 -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 4:41:10 PM)

To be honest if I had it to do over again I would wait. There were just too many problems out of the box for me. The game is a work in progress and I'm hopeful the bugs will be squashed and a more polished manual will be produced. When that happens I'll give it another try.



thufir -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 5:18:54 PM)

I'd say buy it!

It's not so polished as EU, but EU has had years worth of patching in it, and I think this game is more than just playable, even with its current level of patching. I do hope they fix some of the bugs/issues that are out there, but I've been having a lot of fun with it, and I certainly haven't encountered anything that's anywhere near "game killer" status.

If you do buy the game, I would suggest you keep your armies <= 18 divisions, as this was the workaround to the one bug (or possibly, quirk) that I found most irritating (this was the bug where my Imperial Guards were getting kicked out of Grand Armee I). As someone suggested in the thread "Imperial Guards are No-shows?! ", lowering army size did prove to be an acceptable workaround. Other bugs/limitations I've encountered were perhaps annoying, but nothing that interefered with game play in a significant way.




TexHorns -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 5:34:26 PM)

Deciding whether to buy now or later comes down to how much of a perfectionist you are. Is it a perfect game with no bugs or flaws? No. But name me one game that is.
The current beta patch fixed a lot. As many will atest to, this game is a lot of fun in spite of the few bugs. There is a learning curve involved. I took the manual file and had it printed and bound at Kinko's. The manual does a good job at explaining the mechanics of play and answering questions.

If you want to start having fun now, buy it and get started. If you want to wait and have fun at some undetermined time down the road then wait. You are the one who loses out by waiting. Those who complain and keep waiting for it to be "perfect" can't see the forest because of the trees.

In this genre there is a group of people that are self proclaimed experts on the era. If every detail isn't exactly historical then they claim the game is bad. As I've posted before, it is this particular group of people who will cause EiA to never be completed for computer. Because they all claim to know what the rules are for EiA and what absolutley has to be included in the computer version. Has anyone read the board over there. That poor guy Marshall can't do anything right according to a vocal group over there.

Sorry that I've rambled so and gotten off topic. It just annoy's me when people criticize based on their deluded ideas of superiority.



Ursa MAior -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 9:31:03 PM)

I am not a rules lawyer never were, nor plan to be, if TexHorn refers to me, but there is always big difference between what people should do and what people can do, not mention what they actually do.
In other words there were a theoretical possibility for lets say Turkey to build an army capable of taking on even France, but they never had one (in this period). For reasons unknown to me they hadnt. I am sure their leaders werent all morons, but the society, financial situation and who knows what else prevented them doing it, even though they probably possessed the latest (or most of them) developments.

While I disagree with most of TexHorns post he is right in that sense that if you don't start playing you can only blame yourself for missing out the fun of playing a napoleonesque game (which is basically how I feel right now).
BUT. Reading most of the posts in CoG forums I have a feeling that this game is similar to Imperial Glory in a sense that it looks like Napoleonics but it really doesnt feel like it (currently). It leans too much towards what states should have done, reflects what they could have done, but deals little about what they really have done (or what they options really were).

As of EiA I am among those players-to-be, who say that it should be released ASAP even with a crappy AI, because I plan to play mostly in multiplayer. IMHO a grand strategy of this era is mostly about diplomacy and big battles and much less about fine tuning commerce, production etc. So I will definitely buy this game (as second best) when the MP bugs are fixed and EiA will be released in the second half of 2006, if ever.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 10:59:03 PM)

Hi Ursa MAior
well, my basic point or idea is, I for one would give this game a try

I am one of the beta testers on it and know how HARD Eric has worked on it and what he hopes to be able to do

for a programmer/designer, he has some good ideas and is willing to hear what others think/want as opposed to what he says is great

I hope to work with Eric again in the furture and hope that he has a very long career in this field

but all that is hype, the idea is, this is a very good game

before the first patch, it was a good game, before the beta releases, it was a good game, it needs to be balanced now, as the changes the players wanted, changed the balance, but other then that, it is still a good game

not that I think anything I say will change your mind, but

for Turkey, I think I would still have to disagree, yes the leaders were that bad, totally different class then the troops, they didn't care about the troops, who were not "as good" as they were, a good trooper who did well in battle, never raised up to become a commander, maybe small unit, but never large

and as history has shown, the Turks are not lousy fighters, they are not poor troops, the trooper is good, there leaders have been for the most part pretty poor



jimwinsor -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 11:29:50 PM)

Another point that should be made is that it is possible to play an economically historical game like Ursa perfers, and just have the game be a military simulation...simply, set the "advisors" to handle the economy.

As long as all players agree to this, voila! problem solved. Turkey for example will most likely stay with their historical weaknesses, and if that is one's play preferences, then it can be arranged with ease. So, really, there is no downside here. The game is flexible enough to accomodate all historical desires in this respect.



Ursa MAior -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/23/2005 11:48:40 PM)

Please, please dont misunderstand me or look for other meanings behind my words. I am not saying that

1. the designer(s) have done a poor job
2. turks were bad fighters or something

What I am saying is

1. You can never playtest enough (ie prepare for players' creativity) see 15 turkish divs in Prussia -> but you can always patch it later to avoid completely ahostorical results like this one
2. for reasons unknown to me the turks never had! a really good army in this period. Of course quantity above a certain level always wins over quality, but that is their only chance. Period.

If these things are fixed, then count me in or independently from the above if EiA is cancelled or postponed beyond the horizon.

I AM MORE THAN WILLING TO PLAY NAPOLEONIC GRAND STRATEGY, BUT HAVE HIGH EXPECTATIONS, which can go lower as time passes and I am left out of good games.




TexHorns -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/24/2005 12:53:09 AM)

Ursa, my post was not directed at you per se, but to a general group of people who spend too much time complaining and arguing over whether a game is realistic or not in stead of playing the game.

I agree with you that a Napoleonic Grand Strategy game should have little or no economic model, say beyond trade. And I agree with the post above that stated you can have it both ways in COG. If you don't like the economic's of the game just turn on the advisors and forget about it. If you prefer to micro manage your economy turn the advisors off.

But either way it should be recognized that it is what it is, a game. It is not a simulation. I for one like my games to have the outcome in doubt and not predetermined by history. If Turkey has no opportunity to change history, why ever play as Turkey. The idea is to play a side with the idea of improving on what they accomplished historically. Now I can't give you a disertation on the quality and capability of the Turkish army of the 19th century. But if I'm playing Turkey I wan't the capability, if I do the research and investment, of fielding an army better than what was done historically. That is the fun of playing games.

I have played board games with individuals who would decide one third of the way through the game that they can't win and would quit. The point is to play the game and see how it turns out. I guess for me winning is secondary to just playing the game to begin with. Now once I sit down to play, I play to win. But the actual playing it out is part of the gaming experience, as well as the social aspect.

Bottom line I feel that people should step down from the soap boxes and take a break from judging the developers, and try sitting down and enjoying a fun game, which is the point of playing games in the first place.

If Eric was unrepsonsive and refused to put out patches, then we could all gripe. But with the support he has given so far, noone should complain. If you say you are waiting to buy the game after the next patch is put out, you should go ahead and buy the game now. Play the current version with the beta patch. Learn the mechanics, strategy and nuances of the game. Then when the patch comes out you are so much farther ahead of the game. Just my two cents.

BTW, Go Horns Beat the Hell out of those damn poor aggies.[:D]



1LTRambo -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/24/2005 3:51:08 AM)

Sounds like I will buy this game sometime after Thanksgiving.

I understand there is a beta patch out but it is not offical. How soon until the patch is offical and comes with the total package? This will effect my decision on how long I will be willing to wait to get CoG.

Thank you to all of the responses in helping me make my decision. I used this same method to determine my purchase of EU.

I am currently working on my BA in History and am facinated with the 1600-1815 period. I agree the powers during the Napoleonic period made decisions based on the choices available to them based on their circumstances. However, I agree with one of the previous posts that a game becomes Unhistorical as soon as the first decision is made. That is why games can be fun. Just imagine how challenging it can be to take the "Sick Man of Europe" (Turkey for those who don't know the term) and turn them into a dominant force like they were earlier in their history.



Grand_Armee -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/24/2005 8:01:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior


Which is completely ahistorical. From the beginning of the 18th century until early 20th century, Kemal Atatürk's reforms, the turks couldnt field any army, which had the slightest chance against contemporary opponents (russians, english, french etc.).


Which is also ahistorical although the french had a navy almost equal in number to the Royal Navy, they didnt had the chance to contest RN's control over the seas, mainly due the lack of skilled admirals killed or chased away in the early years of the revolution.

Hey Ursa,
I know you think things may be ahistorical, but let me explain. Taking Turkey to this level doesn't happen in a couple of turns. It takes at least a few years to reach the point where your new troop morale equals where the French started...and that comes with some economic sacrifices. It takes just as long to make an economy that is self-supporting.

For ship building, it takes almost a year to build a ship of the line. And time to gather the materials to build it with. A player cannot build everything at once. My test with Turkey took four-five years of non-interventionist, non-expansionist policy. Funding a war would make things take longer.

So, really...you could be Kemal Ataturk...just born a little early. This is the joy of this game.

Another thing...ahistorically.... I've played EIA. As soon as France goes down, the next biggest guy is set to fall. And Britain is so rapacious with her fleets that rarely anyone had a dingy to call their own after a few years play. (I never met anyone I liked less than an invasion-paranoid Anglophone) How warlike were the Europeans between 1815 and 1866? Nowhere near like we were at EIA as soon as the Corsican was gone.

History is great... But heck, if all we need to do for historical accuracy is bring down Napoleon...it'd be a boring game.

Cheers!




Ursa MAior -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/24/2005 9:28:04 AM)

Alright I am convinced. I will write to Santa. [:D] I always felt that these -say- not so realistic options were included to keep the not-so-strong states' players in the game, but couldnt really phrase this feeling. Probably no sooner then Xmas can I get CoG, due to a number of reasons, but I will keep an eye on EiA as well. Who knows two games under the tree? See ya in the newbies questions forum soon.


1LTRAmbo
I am also in the same shoes, but still has two more years to completete. Started the university a bit late (age 32). [;)]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/24/2005 5:01:53 PM)

Kewl
hope you like the game, it is a good game



TexHorns -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/24/2005 6:16:28 PM)

Ursa,

I am confident you will enjoy the game if you approach it from it's a game perspective. Not perfect, but it has a lot more positives than negatives. And with Eric's support will only get better.

Unfortunately, as I read the EiA board I don't get the feeling we will see that game anytime soon. For those who love EiA maybe an email play of that again would cure what ails ya. I've never played by email before and would be interested if there is someone with experience that could run it.

Happy Thanksgiving to those whom it applies.



jardail -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/28/2005 12:21:48 AM)

Where were you stationed when you played?

I've been looking for some old buddies that I played with in both Camp Lejeune and in Camp Pendleton.

Semper Fi



Grand_Armee -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/28/2005 7:10:32 AM)

Hi Leatherneck_MT,
I played while with 12th Marines in Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii, and while we were on rotation to Okinawa. We had lots of time to play there. Lotsa time to drink, too...but that's another story.

Even when we were out in the field and couldn't play we'd be trying to get players to change sides or stab allies in the back.



jardail -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/28/2005 8:09:37 PM)

Uurah :)

Did you ever know a Sgt Major Pugh there in Kaneohe? I'm pretty sure he was the Brigade SgtMaj. Can't remember when he was there tho. Big guy, coal black hair and a big bushy black moustache.

Damned fine Marine too.

Semper Fi



Grand_Armee -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (11/29/2005 11:32:46 AM)

HI Leatherneck_MT,
SgtMaj Pugh doesn't ring any bells. I was in the Artillery and there were plenty of ground-pounders around. This was 88'-90'. Cripes, a long time ago. Heck, sometimes I'm lucky to remember my CO's name. Some very colorful characters stand out from all of the commands I was in but not that one.



1LTRambo -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (12/1/2005 10:20:30 PM)

Hey Ursa MAior I will be graduating just prior to my 36th birthday. I have been a soldier in the U.S. Army and completing my degree has taken some time. Don't give up, you will eventually get it done.

Grand_Armee and Leatherneck_MT, it is great to find other service members who are interested in these games. I will pick up CoG soon, but hope CEiA is available before I deploy to the "Sandbox" next year.[sm=Evil-210.gif]

Semper Fi

De Oppresso Liber



Grand_Armee -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (12/2/2005 7:36:50 AM)

I did time in the Saudi and Kuwaiti "sandbox"...if that's any relation to the one you're talking about. If it is, make sure you take a sturdy fly-swatter and one of those canvas desert-bags. The worst thing about the desert was the flies. So fast, and so many of them...we learned that to eat we must share with the flies...luckily they have small mouths.



Ursa MAior -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (12/2/2005 2:33:14 PM)

Thanks 1LTRambo. I am only about to complete the 3rd semester out of 8, so almost halfway. Since I intend to become a strategic analyst, there is 'No retreat, no surrender' for me.

It is a bit offtopic but has anybody been recently on a tour of duty in Iraq? As you can see I am literally half-a-world away and only can see what comes through the media (either pro -like US official sources- or con -like CNN- iraqi war). What is the real situation over there? What do the locals say? What did you experience?

As a student of history I've learned to value first hand memoirs, although of course one's story is always a little part of the truth, the big picture is built from millions of smaller ones.

THX in advance.




1LTRambo -> RE: Should I buy Now, or wait (12/2/2005 7:21:13 PM)

Thanks Grand_Armee for the info. I originally served in the first Gulf War and don't know if my deployment will be to OEF or OIF. Either way, I love deployments and have found my military career most rewarding outside of garrison.

Ursa MAior, I know that the mainstream media has a bias against the current American Executive Administration and use the anti-war template that appeared to be successful during America's war in Vietnam to undermine this administration. So what you get is death counts and terrorist successes in the media in the hopes of destroying popular support for the war. Therefore the good that is occuring is being swept under the rug. For example, the media does not report about the new found freedoms that the people of Iraq and Afghanastan have since the war on terror or the frindships that have developed between soldiers and locals. Which is a shame. So I suggest you look at many sources of information before drawing conclusions.



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