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Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix

 
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Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/25/2005 8:05:03 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		It is astonishing to report that Ise and Hyuga, which have special code to convert them to semi-carriers, have no air groups! AFTER conversion, the ORIGINAL air groups remain, so you just sacrificed 1/3 of your heavy guns to get carriers which have 2 E13 type floatplanes assigned to them!
This must be irritating to any player who decided to make carriers out of them.

The historical ships operated the E16 float bomber and the D4Y regular carrier dive bomber: Ise had 14 floatplanes and 8 dive bombers and Hyuga the reverse. Regretfully, the redefined ships seem to be ordinary battleships, so I do not think they will operate any carrier aircraft. But they will operate floatplanes.

I defined the E16 and put it on them - and they seem to be fine. Now since I have this record, it is available to Matrix or anyone who wants an E16 - but I assume that is not hard to create.

Since the bomber squadrons did not finish training until May 1944, I propose the following solution:

Let Ise-1 and Hyuga-1 floatplane units be defined as 2 floatplanes - E8N2 which upgrade to E13A1. They could later upgrade to E16A1. These units are available to the Battleship versions of the ships right away.

Let Ise-2 and Hyuga-2 floatplane units be defined as 20 E16A1 floatplane bombers. Define them as delayed until May 1, 1944. When they appear, the ships then have 22 floatplanes - which is as correct as we can be until someone figures out how to operate D4Ys from them.
Post #: 1
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/25/2005 10:06:20 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I just upgraded the Ise and when it arrived it had Ise-1 (size of 12) and Ise-2 (size of 9).
The group size was adjusted.
Michael
[edit]
Looks like air group re-org has kicked in. Both groups have stablised at max size of 11 each.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 12/25/2005 10:15:56 AM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
Test results - 12/25/2005 1:03:30 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Just for drill, I outfitted Ise with my proposed seaplane groups - one of 2 and one of 20 E16A1. I outfitted Hyuga with 2 C6 recon planes and 20 D4Y carrier bombers. I loaded the area with targets - and no allied fighters - and let the AI have at it. The Ise flew ALL 22 of her E16s - losing 17 of them - in an attack at 2000 feet. The Hyuga did NOT fly. SO the theory seems correct: AI will fly seaplanes from these semicarriers, but not regular CV planes.

Day Air attack on TF, near Osaka/Kobe at 63,42

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 9
A6M2 Zero x 10
A6M5 Zeke x 29
N1K1-J George x 21
B6N Jill x 36
B7A Grace x 3
G4M2 Betty x 23
E16A1 Paul x 22
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 53
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 40
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N Jill: 16 destroyed, 4 damaged
B7A Grace: 3 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 4 destroyed, 11 damaged
E16A1 Paul: 17 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota
BB Iowa
BB Indiana
BB North Carolina
BB New Jersey
BB Washington
BB Alabama

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G4M2 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
8 x G4M2 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B6N Jill bombing at 5000 feet
1 x E16A1 Paul bombing at 2000 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
4 x B6N Jill bombing at 5000 feet

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 3
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/25/2005 1:07:54 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I just upgraded the Ise and when it arrived it had Ise-1 (size of 12) and Ise-2 (size of 9).
The group size was adjusted.
Michael


With WHAT kind of plane? E16 is not in any scenario to play with. And D4Y probably won't fly from these ships. Those were the ONLY planes ever to operate from them.

And WHY would they have these ships in 44 and 45 scenarios with 1 plane air groups if they had defined air groups?

Anyway - 12 and 9 are wrong - that is - the air groups were 14 and 8. So aside from the fact they must have the wrong planes, they got the group size wrong. I do not understand what they were thinking?????

What scenario were you playing????

And what do you mean by "when they show up" - these ships "show up" in 1941.

Sid

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 4
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/25/2005 2:19:26 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

I just upgraded the Ise and when it arrived it had Ise-1 (size of 12) and Ise-2 (size of 9).
The group size was adjusted.
Michael


With WHAT kind of plane? E16 is not in any scenario to play with. And D4Y probably won't fly from these ships. Those were the ONLY planes ever to operate from them.

And WHY would they have these ships in 44 and 45 scenarios with 1 plane air groups if they had defined air groups?

Anyway - 12 and 9 are wrong - that is - the air groups were 14 and 8. So aside from the fact they must have the wrong planes, they got the group size wrong. I do not understand what they were thinking?????

What scenario were you playing????

And what do you mean by "when they show up" - these ships "show up" in 1941.

Sid

May be I was not clear when I said "upgraded". I mean when the "conversion" that you are referring to takes place.

I left the BB Ise in Osaka on 31 Dec 1942, and 180 days later it (the converted Ise) arrived in Tokyo. The planes on the Ise conversion were 1xA6M2-N Rufe (max 12) and 1xE13a1 Jake (max 9). The groups began to fill out on arrival.

Scenario was #14 starting in late 42.
I am only replying to fact that groups do have more than one plane each after conversion.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by michaelm -- 12/25/2005 2:30:04 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 5
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/25/2005 6:25:37 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This is very strange. Different scenarios have different data! They didn't integrate the air groups into the late war scenarios at all!

And the "conversion" air groups are entirely fictional! By that time the A6M2-N is basically worthless -as is the E13A1 - and no one ever contemplated operating either from these ships! Wow. What a concept.


I wonder if there is a way NOT to get the A6M2-N? Maybe kill the Ise-1 unit? Presumably one can upgrade the E13 to E16 - provided it is in your plane list.

I see no way to operate the D4Y from these ships short of defining them as CVs - in which case the E16 won't work.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 6
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/26/2005 4:36:58 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Tested some more of the Ise conversion.
As part of the hard-coded "conversion", the first air group changes its plane type to that of the 2nd aircraft slot.
In the official scenario, that is the A6M2-N.

An alternative approach might be to add a "float" version of the D4Y in that slot to satisfy the program. That would then allow the Ise to operate them.

I changed the 2nd slot to a D4Y and the Ise-1 group changed to that on "conversion".
One problem might be what other "conversions' might convert groups to slot 2.
Also, all current groups with A6M2-N would need to be changed to point to a new slot for the A6M2-N. I don't a carrier-capable slot is needed as they are float planes, do I?

The group sizes are not ship-specific but seem to be generalised. In the Ise case, the split seems to be 50-50.

Michael

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 7
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/26/2005 7:31:32 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I think the efforts y'all are doing to try and enhance the accuracy is grand. I will just add (for accuracy's sake) that, I believe that the Judys were were a one-way trip squadron. The intent was for them to be able to take off from Ise, but they would land at a local land base. But trying to land when at the end of the deck is a pagoda mast, is problematic to say the least. I believe the decks were too short to land with to begin with anyways.

But I could be wrong.

===

In Scen 15, Ise upgrades to class #513. It's got upgraded AAA, but still the 14" turrets. However, #513 deadends at 513. It doesn't go to 514, which is Ise with the rear deck. You could change the value of #513 to upgrad to #514 (with the deck), and that would solve that.

The air-groups are assigned to the ship at the beginning of the scenario, in the DB. So the one with the max of 1 or 2, is stuck. You might be able to set the two groups with an "upgrade" date, and then define new squadrons. But I'm not sure if it would work (seems like it should tho).

Defining a "Judy" version of type #11, float plane, would probably work. Be advised that this would give you an organic air group for Ise, whereas historically, I belive it was a 1-way trip (but either way, I still love to see to it work, I don't are if the Judys can relaunch, they're not going to do much anyways).

Regards,
-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 8
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/26/2005 11:19:06 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		The class #514 is a special conversion class which occurs when the BB Ise is disbanded in Osaka at the end of a month from Dec 1942, onwards. It is a program hard-coded "conversion", not a normal ship upgrade. Manual section 13.2.3

Michael

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 9
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/30/2005 6:12:42 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

An alternative approach might be to add a "float" version of the D4Y in that slot to satisfy the program. That would then allow the Ise to operate them.


This is brilliant - insofar as I HAVE added a "float" version to the next set of planes for CHS!!! Turns out it is HISTORICAL!!! Its name is M6A1!!

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 10
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/30/2005 6:16:15 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I think the efforts y'all are doing to try and enhance the accuracy is grand. I will just add (for accuracy's sake) that, I believe that the Judys were were a one-way trip squadron. The intent was for them to be able to take off from Ise, but they would land at a local land base. But trying to land when at the end of the deck is a pagoda mast, is problematic to say the least. I believe the decks were too short to land with to begin with anyways.



You are very right. The ORIGINAL idea was to use ALL D4Ys on these ships!!! But they were to land on land OR on other carriers - one of the ships in the division was Shinano! The use of seaplane bombers was a compromise so the ships could stay in action longer - if one survived it could support ALL the seaplanes from both! But the D4Ys were better performing - so you got both in one package.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 11
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 12/30/2005 6:21:31 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Defining a "Judy" version of type #11, float plane, would probably work. Be advised that this would give you an organic air group for Ise, whereas historically, I belive it was a 1-way trip (but either way, I still love to see to it work, I don't are if the Judys can relaunch, they're not going to do much anyways).


Since there really IS a float version of Judy (M6A1), and since it really could relaunch, this is a BETTER choice for the air group anyway - one that is really possible. Why have E16A1 at all? The only problem probably is date of availability - Yep - 12/44 for the plane but the ship is available from 11/43. Even the E16 and D4Y groups took until April 44 to train up. But another half a year is a long time!


(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 12
RE: Ise&Hyuga Air Group Problem and Fix - 1/1/2006 1:16:04 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Between testing and player feedback, I may understand what code does to these ships now. I have created six squadrons for these two ships - and documented them to allow use in ANY scenario:

1) Two -1 squadrons appear on the battleships - each has 2 E13s - and each will convert to E16s IF the ships convert to semi-carriers. These units should convert to M6A1 IF the ships become semicarriers AND IF players want strictly historical play. [M6A1 IS a D4Y1 with floats - floats it can shed!]

2) Two -2 squadrons appear WITH the semi-carriers. These have the right number of E16s. These same units also should be used in 44 and 45 scenarios.

3) Two "carrier" squadrons ONLY used in the 44 and 45 scenarios - they compliment the -2 squadrons. In those scenarios the -1 units are set NOT to appear. By "compliment" I mean the numbers are right - Ise has 14 M6A1 and Hyuga 8 M6A1 - while Ise has 8 E16 and Hyuga has 14. This is the correct number - but one that won't happen in campaign games - because code sets the units a 13 and 9 planes initially, and 11 planes later!

Even so, we have a pretty functional set of air groups. It is even a possible set of air groups. The only thing wrong with it is that M6A1 was not historically available quite soon enough - something I fixed for game purposes. Actually, using ALL M6A1 is better than the historical planes.
Just as the Game use of A6M2-N might be better - IF it was not so obsolete by 1944! But WE have the N1K1 - so theoretically someone could put it on these ships. But not in CHS - because I don't think M6 or E16 will convert to seaplane fighters.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 13
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