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RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:07:54 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Well, I had a small bit of good news today. My company got a reprieve (sp?) and got some funding for the next 3-4 months...which is about as long as it should take for the snow to melt and for me to get to that job interview.

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Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 33871
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:08:29 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

Why would they build it wrong in the first place?


If you are asked to build something to function between say 40 - 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and then someone decides to operate at 0 degrees F, did you build it wrong?

The engineers knew what the design specs were, and warned that they were being exceeded from what i understand. They were ignored, but i hardly think that was their fault, nor the fault of the design per se.

EDIT: IIRC - from reading Feynman's book (autobiography), it was the design specs being exceeded that did in the shuttle. It has been some years since i read it, though. There were problems with the o-rings as you mentioned, but only when they stressed the design beyond the max specs did the catastrophic result occur.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/9/2007 9:23:27 PM >

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 33872
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:08:30 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Sorry to hear that T. You've got to marvel at, if not admire, a boss that can suck the excitement and energy out of a job within two days. Start calling him Count Dracula.


I have a dental hygenist who's been doing my teeth for over 20 years. I always called her Dr. Mengle. My mouth would ache for a couple of days after she was through with me. My wife used to laugh and call me a wimp (true but not in this case), until she got her a year or so ago. She appologized profusely and made it up to me that night.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 33873
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:14:58 PM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: scott1964

Hey Mike
Have you looked at my problem yet?



When did you send it, Scott? I didn't get it.

I resent it again. Sent yesterday afternoon.

_____________________________

Lucky for you, tonight it's just me


Any ship can be a minesweeper..once !! :)

http://suspenseandmystery.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 33874
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:16:46 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Did you send it to michael.solli@us.army.mil ? If not, try that one.


(in reply to scott64)
Post #: 33875
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:17:17 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Damn, now I did it. Now all you crazies know my real name.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 33876
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:20:24 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Expect spam from T shortly.......

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 33877
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:20:34 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Looked up some stuff on the report of the Challenger:

"At a teleconference which took place on the evening of the 27th, Thiokol engineers and managers discussed the weather conditions with NASA managers from Kennedy Space Center and Marshall Space Flight Center. Several engineers—most notably Roger Boisjoly—expressed their concern about the effect of the temperature on the resilience of the rubber O-rings that sealed the joints of the solid rocket boosters. They argued that if the O-rings were colder than 53 degrees F (approximately 11.7 degrees C), there was no guarantee they would seat properly. They also argued that the cold overnight temperatures would almost certainly result in SRB temperatures below their redline of 40 degrees F. However, they were overruled by Morton Thiokol management, and Morton Thiokol recommended that the launch proceed as scheduled."

So, this part was actually not NASA (as i had thought) but Morton Thiokol.



"One of the commission's most well-known members was theoretical physicist Richard Feynman. During a televised hearing, he famously demonstrated how the O-rings became less resilient and subject to seal failures at ice-cold temperatures by immersing a sample of the material in a glass of ice water. He was so critical of flaws in NASA's "safety culture" that he threatened to remove his name from the report unless it included his personal observations on the reliability of the shuttle, which appeared as Appendix F. In the appendix, he argued that the estimates of reliability offered by NASA management were wildly unrealistic, differing as much as a thousandfold from the estimates of working engineers. "

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 33878
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:21:07 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Damn, now I did it. Now all you crazies know my real name.



Yeah, you had concealed it so well until now...

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 33879
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:21:36 PM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Did you send it to michael.solli@us.army.mil ? If not, try that one.



I sent it a wowway account... edit, sent to the mil email.

< Message edited by scott1964 -- 1/9/2007 9:33:17 PM >

_____________________________

Lucky for you, tonight it's just me


Any ship can be a minesweeper..once !! :)

http://suspenseandmystery.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 33880
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:22:33 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Just goes to show you that PHB's can kill you and should be shot first to prevent that from happening.

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Post #: 33881
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:23:32 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline 		Your email is now on the homeland security watchlist, scott.
Spamming military addresses......

< Message edited by Mynok -- 1/9/2007 9:34:20 PM >

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 33882
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:24:39 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I know exactly how you feel Nik. Let me share a story.

My wife and I were married in the summer of 1995. She was almost finished with her nursing degree in SC, and planned to complete it at a small college in the NC town where I was living and working at the time. Moved all her stuff up then went through the application and transfer process. Halfway through, her transcripts arrive and the college says "I'm sorry, but you'll have to retake all your chemistry courses", which in nursing means essentially starting over.

So she ends up having to move back to SC for a year to finish. I stayed in NC. When she finished up in early 1997, I found out that my company got bought. Since I didn't want to work for the new owners, I was on the hunt. The only ones available were either moving far away.......or traveling every week. The latter paid a lot more, so I took it. Leave Sunday night.....return Friday morning. Every week.

It wasn't funny at the time, but we do get a chuckle out of it now.



that does suck. GF unit went through similar to a smaller scale....had to retake all her criminal justice courses at her current college. all around sucky day



_____________________________


(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 33883
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:24:43 PM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		ohh no.... evilgenuis@evilgenius.comnet .........

< Message edited by scott1964 -- 1/9/2007 9:35:24 PM >

_____________________________

Lucky for you, tonight it's just me


Any ship can be a minesweeper..once !! :)

http://suspenseandmystery.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 33884
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:27:12 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Sorry to hear that T. You've got to marvel at, if not admire, a boss that can suck the excitement and energy out of a job within two days. Start calling him Count Dracula.


I'm considering sending Scott Adams an e-mail about it. Maybe he can make a Dilbert comic out of it...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 33885
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:27:36 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I know exactly how you feel Nik. Let me share a story.

My wife and I were married in the summer of 1995. She was almost finished with her nursing degree in SC, and planned to complete it at a small college in the NC town where I was living and working at the time. Moved all her stuff up then went through the application and transfer process. Halfway through, her transcripts arrive and the college says "I'm sorry, but you'll have to retake all your chemistry courses", which in nursing means essentially starting over.

So she ends up having to move back to SC for a year to finish. I stayed in NC. When she finished up in early 1997, I found out that my company got bought. Since I didn't want to work for the new owners, I was on the hunt. The only ones available were either moving far away.......or traveling every week. The latter paid a lot more, so I took it. Leave Sunday night.....return Friday morning. Every week.

It wasn't funny at the time, but we do get a chuckle out of it now.



that does suck. GF unit went through similar to a smaller scale....had to retake all her criminal justice courses at her current college. all around sucky day




I preferred to not live with my wife while she finished up without having to retake courses, vs living with her (and the associated frustration) while she did.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 33886
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:32:29 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scott1964

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Did you send it to michael.solli@us.army.mil ? If not, try that one.



I sent it a wowway account... edit, sent to the mil email.


Got it, Scott. Wowway (home) account is still down due to that damn Bill Gates (the man who knows what's best for us) and his infernal machines. Hopefully, my damn PC will be fixed today.

I'll mess with it tonight on my laptop (another damn PC that's on it's last legs).

(in reply to scott64)
Post #: 33887
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:33:11 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I preferred to not live with my wife while she finished up without having to retake courses, vs living with her (and the associated frustration) while she did.



regrettably, i have no choice for the moment. Course now its her turn to walk on eggshells.... i still want to ram my car into some administrator's Lexus....

_____________________________


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Post #: 33888
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 9:47:23 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Expect spam from T shortly.......


And naked animal pics and nuns.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 33889
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 10:01:32 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Robert, I also read Feynmans book and yes he did harshly critisize NASA's "cultural problems." Thiokol was in error for recommending the flight go forward, but NASA accepted that recommendation because it is what they wanted to hear. Which IMO you could in turn trace back to the politicians and media who scrutinize NASA for scrubbing missions (thus running up the costs) due to bad weather, and other safety concerns.

I will look for it, but IIRC the o-rings were designed to operate within NASA's specs, which were exceeded on the mission, but the basic design principal was still flawed. There were many other design options which would have produced a more robust design, but were decided against on the basis of ease of manufacture...not necessarily a bad decision until you consider the consequences of a catastrophic (sp?) failure. This is why say a civil engineer would design a bridge to a tolerance twice as high as the worst case expected, because you never really can predict the worst case scenario.

Plenty of blame to go around on that one.

My professors point would be proven twice over. Don't generate a faulty design and for goodness sake understand that rubber becomes less maliable at lower temperatures...that's like chem 101.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 33890
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 10:09:41 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

My professors point would be proven twice over. Don't generate a faulty design and for goodness sake understand that rubber becomes less maliable at lower temperatures...that's like chem 101.


Well, i think the engineers were well aware of the second problem - as for the first, i think they were aware of that as well, which is why i included this quote: "estimates of reliability offered by NASA management were wildly unrealistic, differing as much as a thousandfold from the estimates of working engineers. "

From reading the description of the Challenger disaster, some horrible never before and never since conditions applied at the time of the launch - cold temp, and the shuttle was hit with the strongest windshear ever recorded in the program at the moment of disaster. If you have overestimated your safety factor by a factor of 1000 or so, when things go wrong horrible events will follow.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 33891
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 10:10:58 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Expect spam from T shortly.......


And naked animal pics and nuns.


ohboyohboyohboyohboy.......

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 33892
Rambo Log! - 1/9/2007 10:15:16 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		make it naked animals with guns.


lots of guns.



_____________________________


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Post #: 33893
RE: The THREAD!!! - 1/9/2007 10:19:58 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


And Dixie is most likely to have actually taken the shot!

Morning tithe........



Not that shot, but I HAVE seen some interesting photos from our 'colleagues' from 216 Sqn. They've busted one of their jets, whilst landing at Kandahar. Apparantly they just before touching down, they bounced and hit the runway again, smashing the middle engine on the ground
It's a bit of a mess now, and they're a fair way from home too...

_____________________________



Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 33894
RE: Rambo Log! - 1/9/2007 10:32:48 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

make it naked animals with guns.


lots of guns.




Even better.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 33895
RE: Rambo Log! - 1/9/2007 10:34:31 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		and a bazooka....



_____________________________


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Post #: 33896
RE: Rambo Log! - 1/9/2007 10:45:13 PM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		And grenades...

_____________________________

Lucky for you, tonight it's just me


Any ship can be a minesweeper..once !! :)

http://suspenseandmystery.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 33897
RE: Rambo Log! - 1/9/2007 10:50:30 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		well i just received an update from the program administrator. grr.....typical answer... ("its not OUR requirement....it's the other college participating in the program with us!" and "I understand it's frustrating, but things have to change at some point!")

oh thanks....i've just been working my ass off for a year just to get on a stinking wait list. Only small flicker of hope is that she said she'd pursue it with the other college's administrator to see if an exception can be made. I don't have high hopes.

Hope my cubicle neighbors in dead-end job city like Skinny Puppy, cuz i'm crankin the tunes very LOUD right now.....the music fits my mood perfectly.....

_____________________________


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Post #: 33898
RE: Rambo Log! - 1/9/2007 10:57:15 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scott1964

And grenades...


Grenades make a satisfying bang. Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to throw them far enough so you're outside their blast radius.

(in reply to scott64)
Post #: 33899
Thread! - 1/9/2007 10:57:23 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
Time to switch to becoming an RN.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 33900
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