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RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/13/2006 10:29:10 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Ok, thanks.

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Post #: 181

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/13/2006 10:57:36 PM

Froonp

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quote:

I am not keen on using anything other than arrows. Fine detail gets lost at lower zoom levels.

Any shade of blue would be problematic since straits symbols often parallel (and are close to) sea area boundaries (e.g., Gibraltar and Frederikshavn).

I am thinking of making the countries boundaries a darker red. Right now they are very bright relative to the rest of the map. That would make the straits and country boundries somewhat different when they are in close proximity.

Yes for the countries borders.
For the straits, why not some arrow with a larger head, and some yellow outline ?

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Post #: 182

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/13/2006 11:25:30 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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This picture will be a surprise for many of you.

I changed the country border colors to match the country names. It looked weird to me for about 5 seconds and then my brain processed that the color maroon was for countries. This makes Rhineland (Ge) and Sudetenland (Ge) make more sense. It also makes the red objective cities jump off the map as important.
I added white shadowing for the names of the major powers. Chris had tried this for all the names on the map but it caused some players difficulty in reading the labels. I like the effect for the major powers and I'm considering using it for all the country names (but no more than that).

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 183

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/13/2006 11:40:37 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed the country border colors to match the country names. It looked weird to me for about 5 seconds and then my brain processed that the color maroon was for countries.

Isn't it possible to have a red that would be between the one of the countries label, and the bright red ? Why not dotted Yellow / dark Red lines ?

quote:

This makes Rhineland (Ge) and Sudetenland (Ge) make more sense. It also makes the red objective cities jump off the map as important.

YEs, definitely, and this is very good.
Too bad that your picture did not show any strait.

quote:

I added white shadowing for the names of the major powers. Chris had tried this for all the names on the map but it caused some players difficulty in reading the labels. I like the effect for the major powers and I'm considering using it for all the country names (but no more than that).

Only for the countries (size 15 and more) but not for the territories.
Wouldn't a black shadowing look better ?

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Post #: 184

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 12:56:19 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I changed the country border colors to match the country names. It looked weird to me for about 5 seconds and then my brain processed that the color maroon was for countries.

Isn't it possible to have a red that would be between the one of the countries label, and the bright red ? Why not dotted Yellow / dark Red lines ?

quote:

This makes Rhineland (Ge) and Sudetenland (Ge) make more sense. It also makes the red objective cities jump off the map as important.

YEs, definitely, and this is very good.
Too bad that your picture did not show any strait.

quote:

I added white shadowing for the names of the major powers. Chris had tried this for all the names on the map but it caused some players difficulty in reading the labels. I like the effect for the major powers and I'm considering using it for all the country names (but no more than that).

Only for the countries (size 15 and more) but not for the territories.
Wouldn't a black shadowing look better ?

Here is black shadowing, applied to labels size 15 and above. I had to double it from 1 to 2 to make it visible.

I like the borders matching the labels. If we change one we should change both. The maroon looks good to me.

Forget about dashed lines, zoom levels makes a mess of them.

I also like the straits symbols. They need merely to be functional, not glitzy.

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Post #: 185

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 12:57:50 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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With white shadows I only need a thickness of 1. I like the results here.

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Post #: 186

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:07:37 AM

lomyrin

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I prefer the white shading.

The straits arrows stand out better now that the country border colors have been darkened.

Lars

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Post #: 187

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 3:14:15 AM

Zorachus99

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Looks more intuitive.

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Post #: 188

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 4:29:53 AM

christo

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white highlights is my vote as well. the black looks too heavy.

Christo

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Post #: 189

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 6:30:08 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Another new page. Did I get this right, Patrice?

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Post #: 190

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 8:19:13 AM

christo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Another new page. Did I get this right, Patrice?

I was under the impression that you were allowed to land move to the NE of Amsterdam because this is a canal not a sea hexside. This obviously has the combat benefit for the defender but does not preclude movement. i agree about the move straight east though as this is the Zuider Zee.

Christo

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Post #: 191

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 8:32:29 AM

lomyrin

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Yes, you can move from Amsterdam to the hex northeast of it across the canal. You can also attack across this canal and then it is treated as a river.

Lars

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Post #: 192

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 9:54:31 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Another new page. Did I get this right, Patrice?

You did and you didnt'.
11.14 says :
***********************************
11.14 Invasions
(...)
You may only invade an enemy controlled coastal hex that has at least 1 all-sea hexside (at least part, but not necessarily all, of this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located). You can only invade with face-up land units on TRSs in the sea area. The TRS must be in the 1, 2, 3 or 4 section of the sea-box. Only infantry class units can invade.
(...)
***********************************
The "must touch upon the sea area where the TRS is located" part does not mean that it must be adjacent with an hexdot from a sea area. There was such a rule in the past, for Pacific scaled hexes, but it disappeared.
This sentence applies to only saying that obviously, you can't invade, for example, Hong-Kong from the South China Sea. Your TRS / AMPH must lie in the sea area where the invaded hex is adjacent to.

So, Stettin is perfectly invadable, the hex east of Bordeaux is too.

The Zuider Zee is another matter. It was clarified by Harry a long time ago :
***********************************
Q. Is the Zuider Zee a part of the sea zone or a lake (is W0936 Invadable?)
A. Lake, no - Canals are river hexsides.
***********************************

So, the waterway NE of Amsterdam is considered as a canal (you should add it to your list of Canals in the other Tutorial page), and the Zuider Zee is considered as a lake. Hexes E and SE of Amsterdam are not adjacent to the North Sea, no shore bombardment here, no invasion, no debarking.

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Post #: 193

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 9:54:57 AM

Froonp

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I like the double white shading of the sea areas.
I prefer the black double shading rathert than the simple white shading.

You are not yet using the latest CSV files where I repositionned Liverpool and Glasgow and Edinburgh Port

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Post #: 194

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 12:14:38 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I like the double white shading of the sea areas.
I prefer the black double shading rathert than the simple white shading.

You are not yet using the latest CSV files where I repositionned Liverpool and Glasgow and Edinburgh Port .

I did all the screen shots for the 3rd tutorial several days ago. I put the text in afterwards.

Is there a name for the Zuider Zee canal? Amsterdam canal? I would like to clearly label it as a canal rather than depend on the visual image (or someone having read Harry's adjudication).

Right now you are being outvoted on the use of thick black versus thin white shadows. Not that voting will necessarily change my mind, but it does have an influence.

"... this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area ..." is really bad phrasing and does not communicate what is intended at all well. I'll try to come up with better words to explain the rule to new players.

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Post #: 195

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:19:15 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Is there a name for the Zuider Zee canal? Amsterdam canal? I would like to clearly label it as a canal rather than depend on the visual image (or someone having read Harry's adjudication).

I don't know if there is a name, and I don't know if it is really a "canal" in reality.
Reality, is that the Zuider Zee is a lake closed from the Sea by a Dam. The Dam was built in 1927-1932.
I'm not even sure that there are locks to allow shipping inside. But, even if there are, invasions and other war-things are impossible.
There is a road on the dam, allowing crossing, a-la river crossing, thus the "Canal" hexside. Representing the "crossing" as a river would not feel right neither, as real geography is not like a river here, so I guess that a canal is the best finally.

quote:

Right now you are being outvoted on the use of thick black versus thin white shadows. Not that voting will necessarily change my mind, but it does have an influence.

No problems.

quote:

"... this coastal hexside must touch upon the sea area ..." is really bad phrasing and does not communicate what is intended at all well. I'll try to come up with better words to explain the rule to new players.

It is bad phrasing, maybe, but "adjacent" would be worse maybe too, because one could argue that you can invade from an adjacent sea area, thus invading Bordeaux from the North Sea, which would be totaly out of the scope of the rule.
"Touch upon" is not that bad, it was understood by me as it was meant to be.
Could have been said : "An hex that is a coastal hex of this sea area". Which is longer and more complicated sentence.

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Post #: 196

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:27:31 PM

Froonp

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About the Zuider Zee.
- Rob need to redraw it as a Lake.
- I need to code this area as a Lake too in the CSV files, this is easy to change.
- I also need to code the "crossing" (the Dam (Afsluitdijk as it seems to be called)) as a canal in the CSV files too, as it is not done.

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Post #: 197

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:27:42 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Two more pages - less controversial I hope.

Clearly there is more to say, but all I am trying to do here is give the players a sense of what the icons mean and a taste of their role during game play.

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Post #: 198

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:29:44 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Second and last in the series. Again this is a only light introduction to the production subsystem.

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Post #: 199

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:31:43 PM

Froonp

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Is there a name for the Zuider Zee canal? Amsterdam canal? I would like to clearly label it as a canal rather than depend on the visual image (or someone having read Harry's adjudication).

I don't know if there is a name, and I don't know if it is really a "canal" in reality.
Reality, is that the Zuider Zee is a lake closed from the Sea by a Dam. The Dam was built in 1927-1932.
I'm not even sure that there are locks to allow shipping inside. But, even if there are, invasions and other war-things are impossible.
There is a road on the dam, allowing crossing, a-la river crossing, thus the "Canal" hexside. Representing the "crossing" as a river would not feel right neither, as real geography is not like a river here, so I guess that a canal is the best finally.

It is called the Afsluitdijk (Closure-dike).
See here for details, and a picture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
Also, there was a battle fought for it in 1940, mentionned in the article, without details.
Also, it mentions a system of locks for the ships to enter it. So making the hexes of Zuider Zee available for debarking units (not invading) and providing supply from the North Sea for the troops who control the Afsluitdijk seems to have a sense, but I do not believe that WiF would have the game mechanic to support this antagonism (not invadable, not bombarbadle, but debarkable and suppliable from the sea).

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/14/2006 1:35:02 PM >

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Post #: 200

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 1:48:19 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Two more pages - less controversial I hope.

Clearly there is more to say, but all I am trying to do here is give the players a sense of what the icons mean and a taste of their role during game play.

Hope is always good

.

Nit picking : Shouldn't "Iced in" be written "Iced-in" ?

Spelling : End of second Paragraph : "When a major port is damged (...)"

Rules :
- Iced-in also prevent supplying and resource transporting.
- Stacking : Minor ports can have 2 Planes, Major ports can have 3 Planes (not 2).

WiFZen that may be sympathic to explain :
Red Factories represent the global production capacity of a whole Country / Region / Area, not of the single city in which they are represented. That's why they are treated differently in the regards of destruction and usability.

You could also mention here that each functionning factory Produces 1 Production Point (abbreviated PP), and that each Major Power has a production multiple (PM) that simulate the country economy's war involvement, and that the PM is multiplied with the PP to obtain the Built Points (BP) available. And finally that all units to be built have a BP cost to be paid when they are built, in the Production Phase.

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Post #: 201

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 2:13:13 PM

Neilster

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I prefer the black shadow for the major power names. It has more gravitas. The new border colour probably makes sense and looks pretty good.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 202

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 8:33:57 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

About the Zuider Zee.
- Rob need to redraw it as a Lake.
- I need to code this area as a Lake too in the CSV files, this is easy to change.
- I also need to code the "crossing" (the Dam (Afsluitdijk as it seems to be called)) as a canal in the CSV files too, as it is not done.

Yes. But that task for Rob is way down my priority list for him.

Please add the name "Afsluitdijk" to the canal. I assume that "dijk" means dike, so neither the word canal nor dam should be added. I'll discuss it by name in the tutorial page about canals.

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Post #: 203

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 10/14/2006 8:46:14 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Two more pages - less controversial I hope.

Clearly there is more to say, but all I am trying to do here is give the players a sense of what the icons mean and a taste of their role during game play.

Hope is always good .

Nit picking : Shouldn't "Iced in" be written "Iced-in" ?

Spelling : End of second Paragraph : "When a major port is damged (...)"

Rules :
- Iced-in also prevent supplying and resource transporting.
- Stacking : Minor ports can have 2 Planes, Major ports can have 3 Planes (not 2).

WiFZen that may be sympathic to explain :
Red Factories represent the global production capacity of a whole Country / Region / Area, not of the single city in which they are represented. That's why they are treated differently in the regards of destruction and usability.

You could also mention here that each functionning factory Produces 1 Production Point (abbreviated PP), and that each Major Power has a production multiple (PM) that simulate the country economy's war involvement, and that the PM is multiplied with the PP to obtain the Built Points (BP) available. And finally that all units to be built have a BP cost to be paid when they are built, in the Production Phase.

So the word damage was damaged?

I'll fix the stacking information.

Room for text is a major constraint.

I am intentionally only providing partial information on some complex topics. Each of them will be discussed in more detail later (160 more pages remain in the tutorials!). Part of a good teaching style is to give the student some information on a topic without trying to shove every fact into his head all at once. I am trying to establish some important facts, hopefully related to a picture and build on them later.

In the process I will purposefully repeat information, such as I have already done with the types of cities and the definition of an all sea hexside. This is not inefficient, but rather a strategic plan to provide the reader with pieces of information that he can assimilate into preexisting knowledge. I then reinforce that knowledge and provide more detail that he can attach to earlier information/knowledge presented previously.

The WIF FE rule book has a totally different design, intended to present information only once and minimze any necessary repetition.

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Steve

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Post #: 204

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 8/30/2007 2:23:55 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Well, this thread hasn't seen the light of day recently. I am using it for showing the next page of the first tutorial. Only one more page remains for this tutorial.

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Post #: 205

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 8/30/2007 2:40:36 AM

Zorachus99

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I don't see an example of a port with a diagonal line through it to indicate damaged...

word 'dmaged' for 'damaged', second paragraph.

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Post #: 206

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 8/30/2007 2:49:24 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I don't see an example of a port with a diagonal line through it to indicate damaged...

word 'dmaged' for 'damaged', second paragraph.

Check the date on that post (Oct. 2006).

I have since moved the 3rd tutorial to its own thread. They now all have their own threads except for the first - which is why I ressurected this one.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 207

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 8/30/2007 8:40:28 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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My current count on the Introductory Tutorial pages is 111, with 82 done and 29 remaining to be completed.

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Post #: 208

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 9/24/2007 9:36:08 PM

mavraamides

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I am a complete noob and recent convert to the WIF series of games and I have found reading these tutorials EXTREMELY helpful. They have cleared up tons of questions and misunderstandings about the game mechanics for me. They've made the game much more approachable.

Keep up the excellent work!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 209

RE: MWiF Tutorial - 9/24/2007 10:26:13 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

I am a complete noob and recent convert to the WIF series of games and I have found reading these tutorials EXTREMELY helpful. They have cleared up tons of questions and misunderstandings about the game mechanics for me. They've made the game much more approachable.

Keep up the excellent work!

Thanks.