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RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 12:22:08 AM   
TheElf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

One thing i've learned over time when it comes to features....never assume.

I'm still trying to figure out what morale does in BTR.....not much from what i've seen


I guess I should have said " I assume these ideas WILL have pros and Cons." If we ask for a system that codes pros and Cons into these options hopefully that is what we will get.


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Post #: 61
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 12:30:11 AM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		Another thing - someone's going to have to bonk me on the head if I post too much - I won't hold it against you if I never have to set the altitudes for my squadrons again. I trust my squadrion commanders, I really do.

Perhaps the mission, the commander's aggression, and the fatigue of the unit could determine this. I know this is an anal, micro-managey group (I say that with admiration!) so maybe this could be an optional thing for slackers like me.

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Post #: 62
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 3:14:09 AM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		As an addition to the limited strike size the computer could take into account the types of aircraft involved and the range to target. For example a B-24 strike which has a target barely out of escort range could have a larger strike because it would carry enough fuel for a longer form up time because it is not going more than 270 miles etc.

This may be overkill but as long as the it involves no micromanagement on the players part the computer should be able to handle it.

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Post #: 63
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 4:31:42 AM   
tsimmonds


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quote:

someone's going to have to bonk me on the head if I post too much

Bro, you got miles to go before you come anywhere close to some of the spam-meisters on this board. Post away!

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Post #: 64
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 1:48:28 PM   
Hipper

 

Posts: 254
Joined: 6/15/2004
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quote:

Eliminate air group leader ratings entirely.

Can anyone name a single American USAAF, USN, USMC, or Japanese air strike in WW2 that was not flown because the group leader lost their nerve or escort failed to materialize? How often did this happen anyhow?


For WW II no data to hand however on october 18th and 21st 1951 the 98th Bomb wing B29's "turned away from Taechon and bombed a secondary target away from mig Alley"
because the did not meet up with their fighter escort,

source Crimson Sky the air battle for Korea superb book

its got some nice figures for claimed shoot downs vs actual shoot downs as well

Cheers !

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Post #: 65
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 2:04:54 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
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From: Reading, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
I'm still trying to figure out what morale does in BTR.....not much from what i've seen


It does......

Try flying BG's that have low morale (20ish). You'll find that they have to suffer lower losses before they turn back home.


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Post #: 66
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 3:53:51 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Yes, i know you've said it but i'm still able to fly low morale groups without much ill effect, including the units with morale <50. There is some turn back at the start of the mission but it's been negligable. (i'm hoping it will be looked at in the upcoming edition)


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Post #: 67
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 3:56:52 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi,

Groups will still fly the mission but if they encounter opposition you'll notice they'll head back home more often.

A lot of stuff is being looked at. I'll mention it though.

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Post #: 68
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 4:02:43 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		yes. I understand. Its not happening or not happening nearly enough. Get to work GEEZER! fix my game dammit. Don't make me come back to the UK and subject your people to an American who drives on the correct side of the road regardless of what you blokes are doing.



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Post #: 69
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 6:03:31 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Pfffft. Pay me and i'll fix it. Dog gammit.

Please come to Reading. I'll have a welcoming commitee

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Post #: 70
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/22/2006 6:23:29 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		One thing that always left me scratching my head was "How is that pilot all over the sky?" is when I see multiple strikes going in and Uber Pilot X is running up kills against all of them. Maybe there is some way to limit how many times any one plane/pilot can engage in one air phase.

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Post #: 71
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/23/2006 3:13:48 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

One thing that always left me scratching my head was "How is that pilot all over the sky?" is when I see multiple strikes going in and Uber Pilot X is running up kills against all of them. Maybe there is some way to limit how many times any one plane/pilot can engage in one air phase.


Agreed, but the potential should always be there. However small the likelyhood though, "Ace in a Day" DID happen in real life. The circumstances would have to be right. I'm talking the Sun and moon are aligned with Jupiter on the Equinox of a leap year, but nevertheless possible.

For example in a branching Air Model the Highly skilled pilot in question would have to begin the engagement with an Altitude, Airspeed, and general performance advantage over the opposing group. This initiative advantage would translate from one successful attack to another by virtue of consecutive successful attacks against a low EXP, poor performing(aircraft), Suprised group of opponents.

Luck would have a lot to do with it in the form of the pilot passing multiple SA (Situational Awareness) attribute and Follow on combat rolls where his initial advantage and the benefit of his high EXP and gunnery skills allowed several opportunities where he could execute Boom and Zoom tactics (high "tactics" skill) and be lethal to several different opponents. His high EXP and Gunnery skills would also mean he is efficient with his ammo, and uses short bursts rather than long bursts.

Other bonuses that could act in his favor are that his wingman stays with him through out the encounter and allows him to focus on the business at hand. This would depend greatly on his wingman's natural ability to fly perhaps modified by his SA attribute and EXP.

Just an idea...

< Message edited by TheElf -- 3/23/2006 3:15:24 AM >

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RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/23/2006 6:19:25 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Agreed, but the potential should always be there. However small the likelyhood though, "Ace in a Day" DID happen in real life. The circumstances would have to be right. I'm talking the Sun and moon are aligned with Jupiter on the Equinox of a leap year, but nevertheless possible.


Freaky things do occur. There are cases of multiple - two or even three kills PER BURST in air combat! There is a case - on film! - of a US heavy shooting an enemy fighter - apparently killing the pilot - which fighter then is out of control and completely cuts the tail off a bomber in the formation - which bomber then is lost because there is no way to control it. It is not very damaged - and is in radio contact on the way down! Something like three parachutes appear. There is a case of a US bomber gunner getting a German medal! Because he survived landing without a parachute. Interrogated - they confirmed his story - finding his parachute cage in his rear gunner position. Lots of wierd things happen.

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Post #: 73
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/23/2006 6:20:17 AM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

Don't make me come back to the UK and subject your people to an American who drives on the correct side of the road regardless of what you blokes are doing.


Didn't they change that some years back?

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Post #: 74
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 3/23/2006 11:34:26 AM   
Hipper

 

Posts: 254
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Status: offline 		no Cid we still drive on the left !

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Post #: 75
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/12/2006 5:03:05 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		Bump

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Post #: 76
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/12/2006 6:29:31 AM   
jolly_pillager

 

Posts: 206
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Think someone else mentioned it, but modeling all the aircraft's performance at different altitudes and speeds and then having the model track the altitude/speed of the aircraft in the fight might help.

Ammo limits on the airframes would be nice

More verbose messages during the replay so we know WTF is going on

Eliminate the Wall of CAP effect please. Yes I know about the Turkey SHoot...I also know that leakers (many leakers) made it through off of Okinawa...something unlikely to happen currently.

The ability to set Doctrine for airgroups would be nice...specifically a target priority list for them would put a quick end to the "CV flypaper" tactic for clearing LBA.

Mission specific bomb loadouts...and more bomb types (Incendiary, Parafrags, Tallboys/Daisy Cutters, etc. etc.).

Damaged planes should "rot" away in the jungle...by all accounts Ops losses are not nearly high enough

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Post #: 77
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/12/2006 11:26:01 AM   
zuikaku


Posts: 135
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		I like the idea of being able to pull pilot from one sqouadron and assigning him to another (of the same type ,ofcourse fighter to fighter). Thatway we would be able to create elite sqouadrons in mos endangered areas. I don't like the idea of unit experience. Keep the individual pilot experience!

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Post #: 78
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 2:51:56 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager

Think someone else mentioned it, but modeling all the aircraft's performance at different altitudes and speeds and then having the model track the altitude/speed of the aircraft in the fight might help.

Ammo limits on the airframes would be nice

More verbose messages during the replay so we know WTF is going on

Eliminate the Wall of CAP effect please. Yes I know about the Turkey SHoot...I also know that leakers (many leakers) made it through off of Okinawa...something unlikely to happen currently.

The ability to set Doctrine for airgroups would be nice...specifically a target priority list for them would put a quick end to the "CV flypaper" tactic for clearing LBA.

Mission specific bomb loadouts...and more bomb types (Incendiary, Parafrags, Tallboys/Daisy Cutters, etc. etc.).

Damaged planes should "rot" away in the jungle...by all accounts Ops losses are not nearly high enough


All great ideas, and exactly what I am looking for from this thread. Keep'em coming.

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Post #: 79
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 2:53:34 AM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuikaku

I like the idea of being able to pull pilot from one sqouadron and assigning him to another (of the same type ,ofcourse fighter to fighter). Thatway we would be able to create elite sqouadrons in mos endangered areas. I don't like the idea of unit experience. Keep the individual pilot experience!


I do too. I also like the idea of spending political points to designate a unit an "Elite" unit. Lots of benefits could be gained, from high EXP replacements to priority for supply and A/C.

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Post #: 80
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 5:58:12 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
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quote:

I like the idea of being able to pull pilot from one sqouadron and assigning him to another (of the same type ,ofcourse fighter to fighter). Thatway we would be able to create elite sqouadrons in mos endangered areas. I don't like the idea of unit experience. Keep the individual pilot experience!


Just as long as you understand this should be coded NOT to work!
Real life ops caused the Allies to believe this was a bad idea - and the Axis did think this way - and you know what happened to them!
Turns out the model is correct - a unit performs approximately as the best pilot in the unit does - or as the unit leader does. Spreading experience around was the American secret. They sent good pilots back to TEACH what they knew - not get killed. Combat is not a survival activity - do it enough you will die.

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Post #: 81
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 9:14:24 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
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From: Hungary, EU
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Just as long as you understand this should be coded NOT to work!
Real life ops caused the Allies to believe this was a bad idea - and the Axis did think this way - and you know what happened to them!
Turns out the model is correct - a unit performs approximately as the best pilot in the unit does - or as the unit leader does. Spreading experience around was the American secret. They sent good pilots back to TEACH what they knew - not get killed. Combat is not a survival activity - do it enough you will die.


The germans also sent back their experten to teach. I think you are exegarating the role of this 'secret'. The allied 'secret' was to produce way more planes (and other war material) than your enemy. Plain and simple. After 1943 no wonderweapon/wunderwaffe could have turned the tide, not even an axis A-bomb. After the germans have lost their edge in Russia ther was no way to beat the united industrial strength of the Allied nations.

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RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 12:28:25 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline 		Regarding FOW.

Currently with the combat replays, summaries and text report, you know exactly how many aircraft are involved in an attack (eg LBA airfield raid). With FOW on, this info should not be so accurate, especially if the attack was at high altitude on a cloudy day with no CAP, or even at night. The information we are presented with should be linked directly to the intel available to us, not the complete picture given to us for free by the game's mechanics.
Could we have a 'detection level' set for each incoming raid, using factors such as radar, CAP level, visibility, recon of originating base, maybe even experince, to vary/randomize the reports. This should also be true for the attacker identification of defending CAP.

"Ground attack on BFF Bde by 50+ 2e bombers at 12000ft"
"Attack on PM airfield met by CAP of 30+ fighter, mostly Kittyhawks"

If playing with no FOW (or a low setting) then reports could remain as at present.

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Post #: 83
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 2:22:25 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Just as long as you understand this should be coded NOT to work!
Real life ops caused the Allies to believe this was a bad idea - and the Axis did think this way - and you know what happened to them!
Turns out the model is correct - a unit performs approximately as the best pilot in the unit does - or as the unit leader does. Spreading experience around was the American secret. They sent good pilots back to TEACH what they knew - not get killed. Combat is not a survival activity - do it enough you will die.


The germans also sent back their experten to teach. I think you are exegarating the role of this 'secret'. The allied 'secret' was to produce way more planes (and other war material) than your enemy. Plain and simple. After 1943 no wonderweapon/wunderwaffe could have turned the tide, not even an axis A-bomb. After the germans have lost their edge in Russia ther was no way to beat the united industrial strength of the Allied nations.


The secret was having enough AVGAS to allow the trainees enough time in the air before they hit the front line.

Plus the safe and wide open spaces of OZ, Canada, Southern Africa & the USA to learn in.

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Post #: 84
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/13/2006 5:53:08 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline 		Like it or not the germans lost the war after Kursk, and not after Luftwaffe was broken in early 1944. I dont like the russians but they were the ones who beat the Wehrmacht (with significant british and american help which they loathe to admit).

It is no surprise that even knowing about the jap threat FDR agreed to 'Germany first'. No matter what you do in the air at the end you always have to send the infantry in. See Iraq.


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Post #: 85
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/15/2006 2:01:48 AM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
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From: Somerset, England
Status: offline 		The ability for fighter-bombers in the ground attack role to jettison bombs and go engage defending CAP (a % based on surprise, altitude, experience)

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Post #: 86
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/16/2006 12:53:31 AM   
Herrbear


Posts: 883
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: Glendora, CA
Status: offline 		Not sure this is the right thread, but why have missions limited by plane type. For example, a patrol bomber cannot fly a daylight Naval Attack mission but a Level Bomber can. Why? I can understand that you woudn't want to send a PBY out on a naval attack in daylight (slow, would eat a lot of flak, lower ceiling), but you cannot do it. Why shouldn't you be able to send a fighter out on a recon mission or naval search mission. I know it's not the best use of the fighter but why not? Have all missions choosable.

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Post #: 87
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/16/2006 2:36:41 AM   
Black Mamba 1942


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

Not sure this is the right thread, but why have missions limited by plane type. For example, a patrol bomber cannot fly a daylight Naval Attack mission but a Level Bomber can. Why? I can understand that you woudn't want to send a PBY out on a naval attack in daylight (slow, would eat a lot of flak, lower ceiling), but you cannot do it. Why shouldn't you be able to send a fighter out on a recon mission or naval search mission. I know it's not the best use of the fighter but why not? Have all missions choosable.


Stop trying to make sense!!!



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Post #: 88
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/16/2006 6:46:00 PM   
TheElf


Posts: 3870
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From: Pax River, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyho!

The ability for fighter-bombers in the ground attack role to jettison bombs and go engage defending CAP (a % based on surprise, altitude, experience)


Good idea.

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Post #: 89
RE: WitP II Air To Air model Discussion - 4/16/2006 8:01:42 PM   
Dino


Posts: 1032
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From: Serbia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

Why shouldn't you be able to send a fighter out on a recon mission or naval search mission. I know it's not the best use of the fighter but why not? Have all missions choosable.


Fighters on supply mission... Yummy.

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Post #: 90
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