Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: m10bob

Yamamoto did not like going into "the great battle" not knowing where those pesky American flat-tops were, and had planned on having one of his subs station at French Frigate Shoals *to refuel seaplanes* which would rendezvous there, enroute to scout Pearl Harbor.
Due to radio security, he never got the message the sub failed to meet with the planes, and that mission was scrubbed.
Hearing nothing, Yamamoto assumed nothing had been seen at Pearl, so he was still in the dark.
The timing (had it gone off on time) might have revealed the American carriers outbound to Midway!!
As far as WITP is concerned, I wonder if it is possible to refuel anything with subs??
Maybe a submersible CS ??

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Too many Japanese plans were based on the opposition doing exactly what the Japanese wanted them to do. As soon as the other side did something unexpected, the plan started to unravel.

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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What they needed is some sort of submarine that could actually carry a float plane. But that's just a crazy idea

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2) Glenns really do need an isolated and safe bay/lagoon to launch/recover and no such place existed or was considered safe within the Hawaiian Islands. In this case WitP portrays fantasy capabilities for the Glenn (most likely IMHO).

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Actually the mid-ocean launch and recovery of Glenns for generalized search missions is BOGUS. The Glenn itself was likely to be damaged in either take-off or landing even in a protected anchorage. The submarine had no room for either a significant workshop or a decent store of spare parts. That is why the Glenns were used only for reconnaisance of specific locations. More often than not they were ONE-SHOT assets. And in order to have the best possible chance of making the one shot count the submarines sought out an isolated lagoon or protected bay in which conduct their flight operations.

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ORIGINAL: el cid again

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Actually the mid-ocean launch and recovery of Glenns for generalized search missions is BOGUS. The Glenn itself was likely to be damaged in either take-off or landing even in a protected anchorage. The submarine had no room for either a significant workshop or a decent store of spare parts. That is why the Glenns were used only for reconnaisance of specific locations. More often than not they were ONE-SHOT assets. And in order to have the best possible chance of making the one shot count the submarines sought out an isolated lagoon or protected bay in which conduct their flight operations.

That is a bit harsh. Warrant Office Fujida deliberately made two bombing runs in the same Glen, and still returned with it to his submarine, where he proposed (to the exec) what became the I-400 concept.

A more germane comment would be that a Glen cannot operate in a significant sea - and THAT is why MOST WITP missions are bogus. IF the sea is calm enough they can take off and land just fine. Strategic recon is useless if you don't get the plane back - how do you know what it found? In fact, Glens managed PHOTOGRAPHIC runs over Pearl Harbor BOTH before and after the attack which began the war. The deliberate professionalism involved in this - particularly the after sortee - imply a real capability - and the Japanese won't tell us about intel successes - as a matter of principle - unless we figure it out first - and usually not even then. We probably don't know about most similar incidents. But there are many many cases where Glens were indeed lost - which is to be expected operating far from home from a submersable base which might not be in sight - without GPS or other modern navaids. And there were many conditions under which a Glen could not operate at all. But the biggest problem was time - it took too long for anything a Glen learned to get to any distant place - so by the time it got there (information I mean) it was not very useful. It was much more likely to be useful tactically by the submarine itself. Japan was more successful at this than any other nation - and most major subarine powers had tried.

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I just don't see them sticking with a failed weapons system, (like a sub-launched plane that does not work.??
I must believe they had some merit.

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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ORIGINAL: Feinder

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I just don't see them sticking with a failed weapons system, (like a sub-launched plane that does not work.??
I must believe they had some merit.

While I agree with you, try applying the exact same arguement regarding the success of 4e bombers vs. enemy shipping in this forum. Oh the wrath that shall befall thee!



-F-

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Article - Although the B1 type submarines carried an aircraft for reconnaissance purposes, they were also formidable attack boats, armed with 17 torpedoes and a 5.5.-inch thick deck gun.

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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2nd Article - Twenty years after the attack, Fujita was invited to several towns on the southern Oregon Coast near the area of his air attacks. The pilot presented the city of Brookings with a 350-year old samurai sword as a gesture of friendship. Fujita was also made an honorary citizen of Gold Beach. He died in 1997; some of his ashes were scattered on Mount Emily.

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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ORIGINAL: Feinder

"World War Two" - Yep. That's one I've got (by Primedia). There's another one, called "World War 2 History" (or something like that), that as I recall is a little better, but also about 3x the cost. I always get them mixed up.

I wonder what other stations that pilot and crewmember were trained for? I doubt they just rode around on the sub for 4 years, doing nothing except for the missions they flew. Any info on that?

-F-

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ORIGINAL: Feinder

"World War Two" - Yep. That's one I've got (by Primedia). There's another one, called "World War 2 History" (or something like that), that as I recall is a little better, but also about 3x the cost. I always get them mixed up.

I wonder what other stations that pilot and crewmember were trained for? I doubt they just rode around on the sub for 4 years, doing nothing except for the missions they flew. Any info on that?

-F-

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Impressed by his welcome in the United States, Fujita invited three female students from Brookings to Japan in 1985.

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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I had a book once called I-BOAT SKIPPER..Have not read it in years, but IIRC those Glenn flights over Oregon were continuous for a short time. This would indicate the ability for repeat flights?

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Altho, I find it amusing that the residents of Oregon are so forgiving about the whole thing. "Hey thanks for trying to kill us. Come back any time!"

-F-

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I wonder what other stations that pilot and crewmember were trained for? I doubt they just rode around on the sub for 4 years, doing nothing except for the missions they flew. Any info on that?

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and it used to be (pre nuclear) that every one on a sub had to know every station - every last valve - etc. But formally, the pilot and crewmember were responsible for air operations, and things related to it

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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Having lived in Oregon (Beaverton) and worked for its largest employer (Tektronix), I can see you do not quite grasp just how liberal Oregon society is. It is ILLEGAL to fuel your car there - you CANNOT have a self serve pump at a gas station you own - or even a SOFT DRINK CAN! They are now proposing to track cars with computers using mandatory devices in the cars in Portland for some reason. There is nothing very amazing in Oregon.

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

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ORIGINAL: m10bob

Whenever I hear about problems with a local society, and their ills, I must feel they are accepted by the masses, based on their elected representatives.
Palosi comes to mind...................

Ref: I BOAT SKIPPER...I recall he indicated the real reason the Mutsu blew up was because it had been working on a secret weapon which would have been similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet.
Since several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.), its' not really such an unbelievable idea.
The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)