RE: Another Midway "what-if"

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Another Midway "what-if"

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RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 12:21:15 AM

m10bob

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quote:

Homosensual".

WTF is THAT??????
I was not there, the author seemed to know his story was pretty fantastic, but he was privy to more then, than I am now..
The author indicated a massive cover-up, (as might be expected if our atomic program had suffered mishap.)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/6/2006 12:28:51 AM >

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RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 12:22:37 AM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Whenever I hear about problems with a local society, and their ills, I must feel they are accepted by the masses, based on their elected representatives.
Palosi comes to mind...................

Ref: I BOAT SKIPPER...I recall he indicated the real reason the Mutsu blew up was because it had been working on a secret weapon which would have been similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet.
Since several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.), its' not really such an unbelievable idea.
The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)

Umm, I wouldn't put much into that Mutsu claim. Battleships have been spontanteously exploding since the introduction of gunpowder to naval combat.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Mutsu.html

OT: There was an explosion on the Iowa (in the 1980's?) during a gun shoot. The USN, maybe in an attempt to find a scapegoat, blamed a suicidal (and homosensual) sailor. I think the final verdict was touchy propellant and possible "overram". What an embarassment (the scapgoating, that is) that was. Notice the parrallel "beauracratic" responses to the cases...

I recall this incident. You got to love politics.

A. We have an event we're completely embarrased about and need a scapegoat.
B. We have a problem we don't like in the Navy and are embarrased about.
C. Hey let's blame one on the other and pretend it will go away.

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Post #: 32

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 12:30:01 AM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
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From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

Whenever I hear about problems with a local society

Problems with a local society? Try one of the highest standards of living in the country, good pay, clean environment, well planned cities (you can actually get around), somewhat reasonable housing prices, fairly low crime rates. Granted, there aren't really all that many jobs - stagnant job market where there aren't many layoffs, but also not much new hiring. Then again, if there was a job surplus you'd have a huge influx of people. Doesn't sound like a terrible trade-off to let someone pump your gas for you. I remember when people bitched that they had to START pumping there own gas in the first place.

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Post #: 33

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 12:39:57 AM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

Homosensual".

WTF is THAT??????
I was not there, the author seemed to know his story was pretty fantastic, but he was privy to more then, than I am now..
The author indicated a massive cover-up, (as might be expected if our atomic program had suffered mishap.)

What was what? "Homosensual"? My attempt to get around any language filters. (Other forums have them, and those systems would filter out "grapes" because r.ap.e is detected.

The author indicates a cover up was in play.

I suggest that the cover up (In both of the cases I pointed out above) was the Navy Ordnance Bureau claiming that it couldn't have been an ammo explosion, because "hey, the ammo is safe, so it must have been sabotage!". To admit that the ammo actually has a chance of "cooking off" would make them responsible for the deaths of those in these kinds of accidents.

Another famous "spontaneous" combustion: The USS Maine blows up in Havanna. (1898?) The folks who want a war with Spain successfully blame a Spanish Mine/sabotage/sneak attack. But it also has been suggested (and is now more widely accepted that) that a smoldering fire in a coal bunker sparked the explosion.

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 34

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 3:52:45 AM

el cid again

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

I recall he indicated the real reason the Mutsu blew up was because it had been working on a secret weapon which would have been similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet.
Since several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.), its' not really such an unbelievable idea.
The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)

Umm, I wouldn't put much into that Mutsu claim. Battleships have been spontanteously exploding since the introduction of gunpowder to naval combat.

It is remarkable how many battleships blew up - due to magazine explosions (as with Mutsu) and also in an earlier age due to coal dust. Dreadnaught records it was as many as 4% - which seems a lot. Imagine players had this happen in a game! It would be historical, but would they howl.

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Post #: 35

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 3:54:02 AM

el cid again

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quote:

Another famous "spontaneous" combustion: The USS Maine blows up in Havanna. (1898?) The folks who want a war with Spain successfully blame a Spanish Mine/sabotage/sneak attack. But it also has been suggested (and is now more widely accepted that) that a smoldering fire in a coal bunker sparked the explosion.

The latest study is by Adm Rickover - a technical expert if we ever had one. No evidence for saboteurs.

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Post #: 36

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 4:25:11 AM

whippleofd

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The Admiral made many changes to the conventional Navy, esp in the venue of damage control, (red lights for night time vice blue, a better emergency power conection, etc) before takeing over the nuclear navy. I HIGHLY recomend his biography for those interested in the "stories you have never heard before" part of the USN.

Whipple

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Post #: 37

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 5:49:50 AM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

Another famous "spontaneous" combustion: The USS Maine blows up in Havanna. (1898?) The folks who want a war with Spain successfully blame a Spanish Mine/sabotage/sneak attack. But it also has been suggested (and is now more widely accepted that) that a smoldering fire in a coal bunker sparked the explosion.

The latest study is by Adm Rickover - a technical expert if we ever had one. No evidence for saboteurs.

In 1998 the National Geographic Society commisioned a study as well. I seem to remember watching a TV documentary where guys with pocket protectors heat up structural steel with a coal fed fire on one side to see if the heat on the other side can get hot enough to cause wood to combust. It did. But they did not have the stones, in that show, to say conclusively that that was the cause.

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 38

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 5:58:35 AM

rtrapasso

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quote:

The latest study is by Adm Rickover - a technical expert if we ever had one. No evidence for saboteurs.

The evidence was strange. Rickover concluded that the plates were bent inward (into the hull) by a peculiar mechanism... after reading his explanation and conclusions, i was not convinced, and many others were not either. Seeing the pictures of the plates bent into the hull sure made it look like the explosion came from outside the ship.

There was no credible proposed mechanism for how the Spanish mined it though. After all was said and done, the cause of the sinking is still not conclusively known.

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 39

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 6:52:32 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Whenever I hear about problems with a local society, and their ills, I must feel they are accepted by the masses, based on their elected representatives.
Palosi comes to mind...................

Ref: I BOAT SKIPPER...I recall he indicated the real reason the Mutsu blew up was because it had been working on a secret weapon which would have been similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet.
Since several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.), its' not really such an unbelievable idea.
The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)

"its' not really such an unbelievable idea." YES.., IT IS! It's completely assinine. The Japanese, who in 1944 had already abandoned the small atomic research program they did have---are testing an atomic cannon design the US (with the only successfull atomic research program of WWII) couldn't develope until 8 years after the war? Why do supposedly intelligent people keep repeating such stupidities? What it the point of siezing on the rediculous to explain the ordinary? Explosive propellants are dangerous substances. If not handled carefully and correctly, they can and do explode. It has happened before, and it will happen again. No need for "little green men" or imaginary "experimental atomic research programs"

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RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 6:56:20 AM

Feinder

Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
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Why don't you just tell us how you really feel Mike...

-F-

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Post #: 41

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 7:01:21 AM

rtrapasso

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quote:

No need for "little green men" or ...

Mulder is going to be really upset...

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Post #: 42

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 7:27:38 AM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Ref: I BOAT SKIPPER...I recall he indicated the real reason the Mutsu blew up was because it had been working on a secret weapon which would have been similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet.
Since several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.), its' not really such an unbelievable idea.
The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)

"its' not really such an unbelievable idea." YES.., IT IS! It's completely assinine. The Japanese, who in 1944 had already abandoned the small atomic research program they did have---are testing an atomic cannon design the US (with the only successfull atomic research program of WWII) couldn't develope until 8 years after the war? Why do supposedly intelligent people keep repeating such stupidities? What it the point of siezing on the rediculous to explain the ordinary? Explosive propellants are dangerous substances. If not handled carefully and correctly, they can and do explode. It has happened before, and it will happen again. No need for "little green men" or imaginary "experimental atomic research programs"

quote:

"would have been similar"

Here ya' go Mike...This is the part yuh missed......

Did not say WAS atomic, you jumped at a "little green man", Mike..
I was trying to recall a book I read some time ago, and was not trying to lay groundwork for a new weapon for the game.
Hope your day gets better Mike, you still have a lot to contribute to the forum.........

For what its' worth, Mike, I don't think you are qualified to tell me about explosives, if that's what the lecture was about..
I started this thread surmising how a sub failing to rendezvous with a seaplane effected Midway..
We all kinda got off topic, (some more passionate than others?)

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Post #: 43

RE: Another Midway "what-if" - 4/6/2006 8:05:45 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Ref: I BOAT SKIPPER...I recall he indicated the real reason the Mutsu blew up was because it had been working on a secret weapon which would have been similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet.
Since several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.), its' not really such an unbelievable idea.
The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)

"its' not really such an unbelievable idea." YES.., IT IS! It's completely assinine. The Japanese, who in 1944 had already abandoned the small atomic research program they did have---are testing an atomic cannon design the US (with the only successfull atomic research program of WWII) couldn't develope until 8 years after the war? Why do supposedly intelligent people keep repeating such stupidities? What it the point of siezing on the rediculous to explain the ordinary? Explosive propellants are dangerous substances. If not handled carefully and correctly, they can and do explode. It has happened before, and it will happen again. No need for "little green men" or imaginary "experimental atomic research programs"

quote:

"would have been similar"

Here ya' go Mike...This is the part yuh missed......

Did not say WAS atomic, you jumped at a "little green man", Mike..
I was trying to recall a book I read some time ago, and was not trying to lay groundwork for a new weapon for the game.
Hope your day gets better Mike, you still have a lot to contribute to the forum.........

For what its' worth, Mike, I don't think you are qualified to tell me about explosives, if that's what the lecture was about..
I started this thread surmising how a sub failing to rendezvous with a seaplane effected Midway..
We all kinda got off topic, (some more passionate than others?)

OK. You "Did not say WAS atomic"? You said "similar to an atomic cannon, a shell to be fired over an enemy fleet, which would destroy the entire fleet". And "several nations were working on similar projects, (heavy water,etc.)"

Now just what kind of weapon involves "heavy water" and can "destroy and entire fleet"? Sounds pretty nuclear to my ears. You didn't SAY "experimental Atomic Cannon", you simply IMPLIED a weapon that COULDN'T be anything else. And at a time when the development of the miniaturization needed to reduce it to a size that could be delivered by a cannon hadn't even begun.

I will admit that I may have over-reacted..., I find these specious arguments tremendously aggrivating and insulting. From the clowns who claim that my ancestors were "too stupid" to pile rocks into a pyrimid without the help of "space invadors"; to the zealous gamers who claim the Japanese had masses of "secret weapons" (jet fighters, death rays) days away from deployment". Why can't reality ever be enough?

If you weren't offering the I-BOAT SKIPPER reference as a serious alternative to an "accidental Magazine explosion", I appologise for my remarks. But what you wrote certainly gave that impression, right down to "The U.S. was certainly using cannons as an atomic delivery vehicle soon thereafter, (by the fifties.)"

And I will agree that this thread (as most seem to) has wandered quite far afield. Tell you the truth, I hardly look at the thread titles anymore. I just click on the last entry, take a look at some of the preceeding posts, and comment on whatever the current subject seem to have become if I find it interesting.

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 44

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