RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

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RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/15/2006 9:31:17 PM

ChezDaJez

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From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

Who's talking about the 5th? Feinder, the fellow who started this thread. "What would KB have done if it had discovered a USN CV on say 12-05?" comes straight from his initial post. You made the statement: The original premise was "What if KB encountered a US CV Task Group enroute Pearl Harbor? What would they have done?" I was just quoting the time frame Feinder mentioned.

Ok. Cool.

But if you go back to my first post on the subject, I stated that "Assuming that Nagumo was within 24 hours of striking PH", he would attack the carrier.

Personally, I think any attack by Nagumo prior to the afternoon of the 6th would have been a mistake. If he had been discovered prior to then, he most likely would have maneuvered to break contact. If he failed to break contact, he might have attacked the CV in the late afternoon on the 6th. This would give him the night to slip away and either (1) continue to Pearl or (2) reverse course. Continuing on to Pearl brings up the other questions: "What does the US fleet do in response?" and so forth.

He could also delay his advance and wait until the planned PH attack time to take out the CV because Nagumo also has to consider what effect an early attack would have on the Japanese plans for attacking Malaya and PI. The allied defences would have had severeal more hours to prepare and possibly get into position to inflict major losses on the Japanese, especially if POW and Repulse can engage the transports.

Its an interesting "what if." One that has no easy answers. One must place themselves in Nagumo's position and look at all the options available to him in order to generate an opinion. War is coming and Nagumo can't avoid attacking something significant without a huge loss of honor.

Chez

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(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 91

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/15/2006 9:51:01 PM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

caused the army aircrews to suck up their seat cushions

Ah, where's Platoonist when you need him. Hey! Platoonist! *wanders off in search of him*

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 92

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/15/2006 10:26:35 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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Here is the actual order (translated of course) for the action of The Carrier Striking Task Force date Nov. 23. I believe this was issud by Nagumo.

Carrier Striking Task Force Operations Order No. 1 [6]

23 November 1941
To: Carrier Striking Task Force

1. The Carrier Striking Task Force will proceed to the Hawaiian Area with utmost secrecy and, at the outbreak of the war, will launch a resolute surprise attack on and deal a fatal blow to the enemy fleet in the Hawaiian Area. The initial air attack is scheduled at 0330 hours, X Day. Upon completion of the air attacks, the Task Force will immediately withdraw and return to Japan and, after taking on new supplies, take its position for Second Period Operations. In the event that, during this operation, an enemy fleet attempts to intercept our force or a powerful enemy force is encountered and there is danger of attack, the Task Force will launch a counterattack.

IMHO this answers the question...upon encountering US forces doing recon, they were authorized to "counterattack" before Dec 7

This is interesting too..I didn't know there was a Midway bombardment contingency.

[Page 10]

ordered to return to the home base. Subsequent to the issuance of the order designating X Day (the day of the outbreak of hostilities), the force will proceed to the approaching point (32 N, 157 W).

[Page 11]

Around 0700 hours, X-1 Day the Task Force will turn southward at high speed (approximately 24 knots) from the vicinity of the approaching point. It will arrive at the take-off point (200 nautical miles north of the enemy fleet anchorage) at 0100 hours X Day (0530 Honolulu time) and commit the entire air strength to attack the enemy fleet and important airfields on Oahu.

Upon completion of the air attacks, the Task Force will assemble the aircraft, skirt 800 nautical miles north of Midway, return about X + 15 Day to the western part of the Inland Sea via the assembly point (30 N, 165 E) and prepare for Second Period Operations. In the event of a fuel shortage the Task Force will proceed to Truk via the assembly point.

The force may skirt near Midway in the event that consideration of an enemy counter-attack is unnecessary due to successful air attacks or if such action is necessitated by fuel shortage.

In this event, the 5th Carrier Division with the support of the Kirishima from the 3rd Battleship Division will leave the Task Force on the night of X Day or the early morning of X + 1 Day and carry out air attacks on Midway in the early morning of X + 2 Day.

If a powerful enemy force intercepts our return route, the Task Force will break through the Hawaiian Islands area southward and proceed to the Marshall Islands.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/jm-097.html#3

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 93

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/16/2006 1:01:16 AM

YankeeAirRat

Posts: 633
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi all,

Does anyone know how close any ship was in coming near to KB during it's voyage? Transports? Steamers? Subs? Neutrals etc?

Steven

Most evidence states that they steamed outside of normal shipping channels between the US and Japan. There was an article in the December 1991 issue of Naval History published by the USNI, about the USS Threasher meeting some of the screening ships for the KB on the evening of the 6th. The article was written, if my faulty memory serves me right, by the engineering officer on the Threasher. He remembers they were hooked by an anchor or some sort of other large hook and the Japanese ship attempted to bring them up. This was after sighting the KB. The captain was debating what to do, ie whether to go in and take pictures or shadow and send of sighting reports, when the tug of war started and after breaking free the ship beat feet back to PH. By the time that they got back was a few hours after the radio traffic came through about the attack on PH. The thing that the article made clear was that the US and the Japanese were operating on the same sort of terms as the US and Soviets did during the Cold War. In that they would harrass each other and maybe trade paint, lodge formal diplomatic complaints and that was about it. Most everyone was thinking of when the fleet would go to war against the Germans.

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Post #: 94

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/16/2006 5:39:22 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Who's talking about the 5th? Feinder, the fellow who started this thread. "What would KB have done if it had discovered a USN CV on say 12-05?" comes straight from his initial post. You made the statement: The original premise was "What if KB encountered a US CV Task Group enroute Pearl Harbor? What would they have done?" I was just quoting the time frame Feinder mentioned.

Ok. Cool.
But if you go back to my first post on the subject, I stated that "Assuming that Nagumo was within 24 hours of striking PH", he would attack the carrier. Its an interesting "what if." One that has no easy answers. One must place themselves in Nagumo's position and look at all the options available to him in order to generate an opinion. War is coming and Nagumo can't avoid attacking something significant without a huge loss of honor.
Chez

And my original point was that given what we know about the course of KB and that of the only two US CV's in the area, it would be an extrordinarily unlikely occurance for them to have encountered one another. And that the only likely way for a US CV to have had such an encounter would be if the Enterprise group had not been delayed 24 hours in it's return to Pearl Harbor and had arrived on the evening of the 6th rather than the evening of the 7th.

The only ship encountered by Kido Butai on it's route was a Japanese merchantman..., and the only Allied shipping they were likely to encounter in December would have been another merchantman.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 95

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/16/2006 10:23:58 AM

Nikademus

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lol.....i've seen many an example of people talking past each other on this and other forums, but i'm not sure i've seen a better example than this one.

the question posed by the poster was "What would KB have done if it had discovered a USN CV on say 12-05?"

To me, the poster is posing a hypothetical situation and asking a simple question. We all know where the USN CV's were on dec 5th. The poster is simply asking people what they think would happened had a CV been discovered by KB.....and "suggested" a date shortly before the attack for this event to occur.

Now if the poster had asked. "How likely was it for KB to have discovered a USN CV on say 12-05?" Then i'd see your viewpoint Mike since we know that the USN CV's were off doing chores that week and were saved from having to find out.

I see nothing that hints of any smacking of "fanboyism" involved in posing a hypothetical question based on a hypothetical positioning of USN assets on a given date. Given that such a scenerio happened to me in one WitP game (only two days after PH) I think i can give a likely answer too.

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Post #: 96

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/17/2006 4:49:14 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
the question posed by the poster was "What would KB have done if it had discovered a USN CV on say 12-05?"

To me, the poster is posing a hypothetical situation and asking a simple question. We all know where the USN CV's were on dec 5th. The poster is simply asking people what they think would happened had a CV been discovered by KB.....and "suggested" a date shortly before the attack for this event to occur.

Very well. And had the original question been "What would KB have done had KAGA hit an iceberg and sank on the way to PH?" of course no one would have pointed out that there ARE no icebergs along the 43rd parallel in the North Pacific in December. It would all have been "Well, the Titanic his an iceberg, so it IS possible." It's certainly a hypothetical situation, and a simple question. My point was that it was a silly hypothetical, and the questioner would have done better to postulate something more reasonable....

So in the words of the song, "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off." Enought ink has been shed over an idea that really doesn't require or deserve it.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 97

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/17/2006 5:14:55 AM

mogami

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Hi, "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub"?

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Post #: 98

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/17/2006 11:01:42 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub"?

It would have been an interesting artifact...., but as he had no avgas it wouldn't have done him much good.

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 99

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/17/2006 3:27:08 PM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub"?

LOL...THIS MADE MY MORNING!!!

Flipper

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Post #: 100

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/17/2006 7:11:04 PM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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quote:

My point was that it was a silly hypothetical, and the questioner would have done better to postulate something more reasonable....

Wow. So Mr. Scholl, could you offer an example of a more "reasonable what if"?

"What if the Japanese Army and Navy got along better?" (Which they do, in this game, as represented by a single Japanese player. Even the AI is free of this political mess.) This question is, to me, a less likely "what if" than a USN CV operating NE of Midway on the first week of December, '41...

Is it your feeling that all "what if's" are a big waste of time?

'Cause, like, the game's a big "what if", sir. Consider:

First, this game, while enjoyable, is not strictly accurate in some areas to be 100% faithful to historical accuracy. (Ground combat, large A2A combat, prodction/supply models, etc.) Your going to be free to make your plans of world conquest and/or liberation without regard to some of the concerns that the real life commanders had to put up with.

Second, as soon as you take control (whith your many games under your belt), your going to know what strategies "work" in this game, and what don't. The real life commanders had plans, and they had war gamed out some of the scenarios, but I would guess that they were restricted in their thinking by some prewar doctrines that did not pan out. You are free of that.

Edit for more spelling errors.

< Message edited by mlees -- 4/17/2006 7:28:07 PM >

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Post #: 101

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 5:27:17 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

My point was that it was a silly hypothetical, and the questioner would have done better to postulate something more reasonable....

Wow. So Mr. Scholl, could you offer an example of a more "reasonable what if"? As I mentioned in my reply, a more reasonable "what if" would have been the Enterprise Group arriving back at PH when it was scheduled to on the evening of the 6th. That was caused by simple technical difficulties that could have gone either way. A legitimate "what if"...

"What if the Japanese Army and Navy got along better?" (Which they do, in this game, as represented by a single Japanese player. Even the AI is free of this political mess.) This question is, to me, a less likely "what if" than a USN CV operating NE of Midway on the first week of December, '41... I agree that the cooperation of the IJA and the IJN is a problem that "PP's" don't really begin to cover. But short of forcing the Japanese player to be either the IJA or the IJN (with the computer's AI playing the other and cooperating when it decided to), I'm not sure there is an answer...., and I don't envy anyone trying to sell such a game.

Is it your feeling that all "what if's" are a big waste of time? No, I think they can be a lot of fun. I just think that they shouldn't be too far removed from the realms of possibility. The Enterprise being in PH is such a possibility..., as is the off chance of KB having been sighted by something and PH being alerted to some extent. On the other hand, Godzilla smashing up ships, or the NIMITZ being "teleported" back to 1941, or Kido Butai running into a US CV when they were over 100o miles apart in reality? Those belong in the realms of Science Fiction, not historical "what if's"

'Cause, like, the game's a big "what if", sir. Consider:

First, this game, while enjoyable, is not strictly accurate in some areas to be 100% faithful to historical accuracy. (Ground combat, large A2A combat, prodction/supply models, etc.) Your going to be free to make your plans of world conquest and/or liberation without regard to some of the concerns that the real life commanders had to put up with. Here we disaggree. I think you should be "free to make your plans for world conquest" ONLY within the limitations of the historical technology, situation, and limitations". Otherwise, shy play at all? What's the point of re-creating historical conflicts if you ignore historical realities? Just make the whole thing up and pretend you are "John Carter of Mars".

Second, as soon as you take control (whith your many games under your belt), your going to know what strategies "work" in this game, and what don't. The real life commanders had plans, and they had war gamed out some of the scenarios, but I would guess that they were restricted in their thinking by some prewar doctrines that did not pan out. You are free of that. And so is my opponant. Yes, we BOTH have to labor under the restrictive bonds of "hindsight". That's the best a "simulation" can hope to achieve. But it doesn't mean either of us wants to add in "little green men" or something else equally far-fetched.

Edit for more spelling errors.

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 102

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 7:06:16 AM

mlees

Posts: 2263
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From: San Diego
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quote:

As I mentioned in my reply, a more reasonable "what if" would have been the Enterprise Group arriving back at PH when it was scheduled to on the evening of the 6th. That was caused by simple technical difficulties that could have gone either way. A legitimate "what if"...

I don't think you are going to find an argument with me about that possibility. Nor will you find an argument with me about what would happen to the ship if it is caught in port during the PH raid.

But, the OP asked, what would the KB do if they were spotted by (and we assume that they knew they were spotted) a USN CV. I think most agree: They would sink it and move on.

The only disagreement here seems to be the likelihood of such a carrier being out that way. You claim zero chance, based soley on real life historical "at start" positions. I disagree that such a chance was that low. Doesn't matter who is "right" here.

The purpose of the "what if", in this thread, as asked by the OP, was to discuss what we thought Naguma (and Halsey/Kimmel) do. He set up a hypothetical meeting. He did not ask what was the most likely reason (or chances of) a carrier being in that location.

quote:

No, I think they can be a lot of fun. I just think that they shouldn't be too far removed from the realms of possibility.

But it only takes 2 days to steam 1000 miles at 25 knots to change that distance. That small difference in schedule (or in mission) just is not reasonably possible?

Those ships did exercise NE of Midway, NW of Hawaii. Just not that week, historically speaking.

quote:

The Enterprise being in PH is such a possibility..., as is the off chance of KB having been sighted by something and PH being alerted to some extent.

I agree, yet you are refusing to believe in the possibility of a carrier doing the spotting, based on their historical positions. We know that, historically, the Lex and Enterprise were too far away, and thank goodness. But there is no reason for the USN to avoid that area. They just happened to chart different real life courses.

quote:

On the other hand, Godzilla smashing up ships, or the NIMITZ being "teleported" back to 1941, or Kido Butai running into a US CV when they were over 100o miles apart in reality? Those belong in the realms of Science Fiction, not historical "what if's".

I was postulating that the Enterprise or Lex TF could have been exercising NE of Midway on 5 December. I am not speculating on the chances of, and effects of, Nimitz class carriers popping outta nowhere (ala "Final Countdown"). Why do you equate them as being the same?

quote:

I think you should be "free to make your plans for world conquest" ONLY within the limitations of the historical technology, situation, and limitations".

You say anything that is possible with the given tech is ok. American carriers can't sail NE of Midway?

The only "change" would be situational. In that, instead of delivering planes to Midway or Wake, the CV in question is exercising NE of Midway, maybe in cooperation with Midway to train their PBY's, as well. You may think that that is sheer fantasy, but I think that is well within the realm of "possible". *shrugs*

quote:

Otherwise, why play at all? What's the point of re-creating historical conflicts if you ignore historical realities? Just make the whole thing up and pretend you are "John Carter of Mars".

There you go again, making an extreme comparison.

quote:

And so is my opponant. Yes, we BOTH have to labor under the restrictive bonds of "hindsight". That's the best a "simulation" can hope to achieve. But it doesn't mean either of us wants to add in "little green men" or something else equally far-fetched.

Stop right there, mister! You can "house rule" out those hindsights, and force the players to use prewar plans and doctrine! (Just joking!)

Once again, a USN CV operating NE of Midway, on 5 December, for whatever reason, is most definately not far fetched.

Yet, we seem to be arguing in circles on that point:

You say "No carriers could have spotted the KB, because they were at position "x" in real life."

I say "True, but what if one of them is at postion "y" instead."

You say "No, they were here, at position "x"! Or Pearl! Nowhere else!"

I say "Why not position "y"?

You say "Because they were here, at position "x" in real life!"

And around we go.

You act as if the Japanese Fanboy Club (I assure you, I am not a card carrying member of that august organisation) is screaming for an official patch to hand them all of the US carriers on turn one. Or Jets. Or the Abomb. And so on. That is not the case.

I was speculating, based on the OP's question, of post #4. Nothing more.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 103

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 7:12:01 AM

mlees

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Does anyone else feel that I am nuts?

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Post #: 104

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 7:36:06 AM

ChezDaJez

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From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

Does anyone else feel that I am nuts?

Nope, I totally agree with you. IMO, the entire hypothesis was designed to see what players thought Nagumo would have done had that situation occurred and was entirely within the realm of possibility. A change of orders would be all that was required.

Mr. Scholl chose to believe this scenario was as probable as time-warping Nimitz back to the period or bringing in Godzilla. He was the one making the absurd comments. His only argument was that it couldn't happen because the US carriers were "over there" and that this scenario was a JFB creation designed to rid the seas of US ships. Personally, I find it a little sad that Mr. Scholl chooses to see a JFB behind every tree... (well, ok, posting).

But, hey, what do I know? I'm supposed to be a true-blue, dyed-in-the-wool, over-the-top JFB who believes that Japan could easily whip the US with both hands and one foot tied behind her back.

Chez

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Post #: 105

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 8:05:31 AM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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quote:

Nope, I totally agree with you. IMO, the entire hypothesis was designed to see what players thought Nagumo would have done had that situation occurred and was entirely within the realm of possibility. A change of orders would be all that was required.

OK. Thanks. I was getting worried. I don't wish to be unreasonable. I am willing to admit when I am wrong. (It happens more than I wish.) I have yet to hold "grudges" with anybody I met on the few forums I browse.

Mr Scholl, no hard feelings, I hope.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 106

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 8:31:01 AM

Mike Scholl

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From: Kansas City, MO
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No, I think they can be a lot of fun. I just think that they shouldn't be too far removed from the realms of possibility.

But it only takes 2 days to steam 1000 miles at 25 knots to change that distance. That small difference in schedule (or in mission) just is not reasonably possible? Those ships did exercise NE of Midway, NW of Hawaii. Just not that week, historically speaking.

There were three US CV's in the Pacific Basin on December 7th, 1941. We know exactly where they were and what they were doing that weekend. There were also more than 60 US Subs in the Pacific Basin at the time. We know exactly where they were and what they were doing as well. So if you can postulate one of those CV's being somewhere else, doing something else, and running into KB---then it is equally possible that KB would run into/over 20 US Subs along the way. Did anyone suggest that possibility? Nope. On the morning of the 7th, there were more B-17's flying North of Oahu than there were US CV's in the Pacific. Did anyone suggest the possibility of PH getting one to three hours of warning of the incoming airstrike because the B-17's had been blown a bit farther West than they had allowed for? Nope. There were dozens of Allied Steamships "tramping" all over the Pacific Basin that weekend. Did anyone but me suggest that running into one of them would have been much more likely? Nope. You say "Those ships did exercise NE of Midway, NW of Hawaii. Just not that week, historically speaking. " Well, the ships of Kido Butai had spent years operating and docking and training in the Western Pacific and the China Sea. "Just not that week, historically speaking". What struck me was how eager everyone was to sieze on this one more unlikely "speculation" while ignoring or rejecting others ranging from equally unlikely to much more likely. And when I pointed this out, just how eager everyone was to jump on me for saying how unlikely it was.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 107

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 8:48:04 AM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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I did not reject any of the other "what if's" you have mentioned. (That is, tramp steamers, subs, bombers, etc, sighting the KB.)

Now, here is why I focused on a US CV:

The original poster, in post #4, setup the "what if a US CV sights the KB?". He did not mention subs, bombers, merchies, or Godzilla. I restricted my answer to the question as asked.

If you were to ask me, is it more likely that a tramp steamer sights the KB?

My answer would be yes, absolutely. And if he lived long enough to get a message off, I would speculate that it would be received with some scepticism, at first, by Pearl. After all, the steamer is a civilian. "What does he know of ship ID? Next he'll say he saw mermaids! Yuk Yuk!" But later on in the day, some search planes will be sent out.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 108

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 9:51:21 AM

ChezDaJez

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From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

What struck me was how eager everyone was to sieze on this one more unlikely "speculation" while ignoring or rejecting others ranging from equally unlikely to much more likely. And when I pointed this out, just how eager everyone was to jump on me for saying how unlikely it was.

I don't recall anyone rejecting any other hypothesis beyond Godizilla, the Nimitz and little green men junk. If someone had mentioned a sub or an aircraft sighting, I would have spoken about that. But the original hypothesis was "what if KB encountered a US CV?" That's all I answered to. As I said before it could have been a rowboat with a radio, doesn't matter.

I disagree with mlees on the possibility of encountering a steamer. IMO that would have been far less likely given how far out of the merchant shipping lanes KB was than encountering a US naval vessel.

"What ifs" can be a fun exercise but if your thinking is so rigid as to not allow for the possibility of a ship or TG having a different set of orders than was historically issued, then what's the point? That's the whole meaning of a "what if." What if they did "Y" instead of "X", not "they couldn't do "Y" because they were doing "X." Kind of hard to consider the "what if" in that case.

The thing that got me, Mike, was that you chose to just not disagree. You chose to ridicule and to label the hypothesis a JFB conspiracy. What's up with that?

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 4/18/2006 9:53:42 AM >

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Post #: 109

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 12:10:17 PM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi all,

Does anyone know how close any ship was in coming near to KB during it's voyage? Transports? Steamers? Subs? Neutrals etc?

Steven

Most evidence states that they steamed outside of normal shipping channels between the US and Japan. There was an article in the December 1991 issue of Naval History published by the USNI, about the USS Threasher meeting some of the screening ships for the KB on the evening of the 6th. The article was written, if my faulty memory serves me right, by the engineering officer on the Threasher. He remembers they were hooked by an anchor or some sort of other large hook and the Japanese ship attempted to bring them up. This was after sighting the KB. The captain was debating what to do, ie whether to go in and take pictures or shadow and send of sighting reports, when the tug of war started and after breaking free the ship beat feet back to PH. By the time that they got back was a few hours after the radio traffic came through about the attack on PH. The thing that the article made clear was that the US and the Japanese were operating on the same sort of terms as the US and Soviets did during the Cold War. In that they would harrass each other and maybe trade paint, lodge formal diplomatic complaints and that was about it. Most everyone was thinking of when the fleet would go to war against the Germans.

Thanks for the info

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RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 5:42:02 PM

wworld7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I don't recall anyone rejecting any other hypothesis beyond Godizilla
Chez

yeah, but if the USS Langley is cruising with a wing of Mothra's than Godzilla is toast.

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RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 6:22:17 PM

anarchyintheuk

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IMO sending a carrier group to exercise ne of Midway after receiving a war warning isn't reasonable in any respect. Parking your planes in the middle of the runway and failing to maintain an adequate aerial search around your major naval base isn't very reasonable either. Makes for a good 'what if'.

We've had the godzilla v. mothra argument before. No way would one, or even a wing of mothras, kick a giant flame-spewing reptile's arse.

Edited for kicks.

< Message edited by anarchyintheuk -- 4/18/2006 6:23:57 PM >

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RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/18/2006 10:17:45 PM

Rainerle

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Now just imagine the PH Strike had never happened and somebody tried it in a WITP Game

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RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/19/2006 12:38:36 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Now just imagine the PH Strike had never happened and somebody tried it in a WITP Game

I can hear the howls of indignation now!!!

Chez

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RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05? - 4/19/2006 5:42:55 PM

mlees

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quote:

Now just imagine the PH Strike had never happened and somebody tried it in a WITP Game.

There would be cries for a nerf. After all, no air dropped torps could run in such a shallow harbor.

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