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Wondering why I can't crack this base

 
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Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/17/2006 9:28:13 PM   
waynesworld

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		I'm still playing my first campaign with WITP and I'm stumped on how to crack this one fortress...

I'm playing 1.6 and I've got 360,000 raving blood thirsty infantry assulting 70,000 defenders at Canton with a fortress size of 9. I've got two engineering units with them (base forces, not construction types) and I can't get the base to start cracking under the assult at all.

I've broken many other bases with just 2 to 1 odds or even better than 1 to 1 odds but I'm stumped by this one. I keep pooring in more troops and assult the fortress only to show that its holding firm.

What am I missing other than a good nuke?
Post #: 1
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/17/2006 9:40:59 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		A level 9 fort is going to require 11-1 odds or better to take in a single assault. No offense, but I suspect that ain't gonna happen here. So its a siege.

What you need to do is wear the fortifications and the defenders down. First off, Base Forces are not assault units. They don't have the right kind of engineers. Pull them out, send them back to another base where they can do what they are intended for. Which is support aircraft.

Next, surround the base. You need to cut the base off from outside supply. At Canton, this means physically putting a combat unit in the surrounding hexes (combat units because your opponent will attempt to break the siege and you will want to be able to hold). Once the defenders run out of supply, their combat strength drops drastically.

Wearing down the defenders means keeping pressure on them. Bomb them from the air with Ground Attack missions; bomb the airfield to force them to expend supplies repairing it (they don't have a choice about this, game mechanics); use Bombardment attacks from selected units in between assaults.

Wearing down the fortifications requires attacking. Everytime you get 2-1 or better odds (it may be 1-1, getting old and me memory is fading) there is a chance you will reduce the fort level. Launch a deliberate attack, then next turn put most of your units on Defensive Stance to let them recover for a few days while others in better shape make Bombardment attacks. Repeat this and eventually the forts will be destroyed.

There are other things as well, making sure your own forces have sufficient supply, having HQ units to boost your AV and provide support, etc. Read the forum and do some searches, it has been discussed a number of times with lots of good advice given.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 2
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/17/2006 9:44:29 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		It's gonna take awhile. You'll most likely have to reduce the number of forts first. To take a base you need odds of 2 (or maybe 1) over the current fort level (10 or 11:1 with a level 9 fort).

(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 3
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/17/2006 10:02:21 PM   
waynesworld

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		Okay, I hear what you're both saying but I've sacked five other level nine forts with only 2 to 1 odds and once with 1 to 1 odds. Rangoon was at nine - sacked easily by 180,000 to 80,000 defenders. Aykab was level nine when sacked by 230,000 to 110 defenders. Two other Chinese bases by Wuhan were sacked at 100,000 to 80,000 defenders as well - and they were still in supply routes from railways from other Jap bases. Rangoon and Aykab were possible low supply weakened defenders for sure as nothing was getting in via sea to both for months before they were assulted by land.

What is coming into play to make this one base so darn untouchable when the other railroad open bases fell quickly?

(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 4
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/17/2006 11:58:05 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Okay, when you say "2 to 1 odds" are you referring to the numbers of attackers to defenders? Or are you referring to the Assault Value combat odds? It is the Assault Value combat odds that matter.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 5
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/18/2006 1:59:14 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		And you need "Engineer squad"-type of engineers, seen in unit info screen (aka Combat or Assault Engineers). Without those you will have trouble taking down fort levels.Most units have those squads in them, but Chinese units are notoriously short of those troops..and I think some Japanese units too. Those that show as "Engineers" are just construction engineers with no assault value. Shock attacks can also take down fortifications fast...but they can be very very costly against determined defenses.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 6
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/18/2006 4:56:36 PM   
waynesworld

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		Okay - the assult odds are the final results of the combat - like the 0-1 (fort level 9) messages in the combat report or not?

I thought the assult odds are the shifting assult values you see during the ground combat screens that jump all over...if those are the assult values being modified - how do you ever know what they will be other than engaging into combat to see the values?

Great tip on looking for engineering types in combat units - didn't realize some had them in them. No wonder base units don't count towards the 'having an engineer' present when doing assults to reduce forces didn't work with base units. Live and learn - thanks for that pointer.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 7
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/18/2006 5:23:19 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Basicly..you don't know for sure before engaging...

In upcoming patch 1.8 one can at least see the other values than final modified assault value without having animations on. Lot of things modifies the values..for every unit. Fatigue, morale, disruption, experience, leadership..and who knows what else. There just is no way to know for sure before combat.

(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 8
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/18/2006 7:32:27 PM   
saj42


Posts: 1125
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: waynesworld

Okay, I hear what you're both saying but I've sacked five other level nine forts with only 2 to 1 odds and once with 1 to 1 odds. Rangoon was at nine - sacked easily by 180,000 to 80,000 defenders. Aykab was level nine when sacked by 230,000 to 110 defenders. Two other Chinese bases by Wuhan were sacked at 100,000 to 80,000 defenders as well - and they were still in supply routes from railways from other Jap bases. Rangoon and Aykab were possible low supply weakened defenders for sure as nothing was getting in via sea to both for months before they were assulted by land.

What is coming into play to make this one base so darn untouchable when the other railroad open bases fell quickly?


Canton is a city/urban hex (defenders AV is quadrupled), the other bases you attacked were not.

do what the others have stated - surround him, use up his supply, bomb/bombard and attack (with engineer regiments) to reduce fort levels.

(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 9
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/18/2006 11:36:45 PM   
waynesworld

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		Darn - must have missed that in my glance over the manual...

Thank you all for the tips - very much appreciated!

(in reply to saj42)
Post #: 10
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/19/2006 2:44:43 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Ah yes, the manual. Well, with the manual AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! *muffled words and thuds as forum veterans pile on to beat me unconcious before I can get started*

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 11
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/19/2006 11:10:12 AM   
afspret


Posts: 851
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Hanahan, SC
Status: offline 		I'm having a problem ejecting invaders from Koepang on Timor. I have mixed bag of Dutch and Aussie Inf units, along with an Aussie Tank Rgt, (totaling just just over 30k troops) facing about 7400 IJA troops, with no armored support and almost no arty. I've been shelling and bombing them on a daily basis for 4 months before launching a shock attack using all my LCUs. The first attack I had a 120 to 1 advantage but only managed to inflict something like 455 casualties (I suffered 230 something). The next attack the combat report said I had 724 to 1 advantage and this time I had more casualties than the AI, which is still holding its ground.

I must point out that Koepang has been under my control since turn 1 and they have not gotten any supplies since I obliderated a re-supply TF about 2 months ago. I can't understand why they haven't died on the vine, or at least fallen back from the Koepang hex.

(in reply to waynesworld)
Post #: 12
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/19/2006 1:32:42 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret
I can't understand why they haven't died on the vine, or at least fallen back from the Koepang hex.


I guess they don't have retreat path so they are stuck there. With current ground combat model it tooks a lot of time to force enemy in open hex (with no retreat path) on surrender


_____________________________


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Post #: 13
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/19/2006 10:30:30 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

I'm having a problem ejecting invaders from Koepang on Timor. I have mixed bag of Dutch and Aussie Inf units, along with an Aussie Tank Rgt, (totaling just just over 30k troops) facing about 7400 IJA troops, with no armored support and almost no arty. I've been shelling and bombing them on a daily basis for 4 months before launching a shock attack using all my LCUs. The first attack I had a 120 to 1 advantage but only managed to inflict something like 455 casualties (I suffered 230 something). The next attack the combat report said I had 724 to 1 advantage and this time I had more casualties than the AI, which is still holding its ground.

I must point out that Koepang has been under my control since turn 1 and they have not gotten any supplies since I obliderated a re-supply TF about 2 months ago. I can't understand why they haven't died on the vine, or at least fallen back from the Koepang hex.


*checks watch, wonders what's taking Ron so long*

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to afspret)
Post #: 14
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/19/2006 10:38:00 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

I guess they don't have retreat path so they are stuck there. With current ground combat model it tooks a lot of time to force enemy in open hex (with no retreat path) on surrender


I think they are in an Allied Base hex that they failed to capture.

It seems that the Allied formations (at least, non chinese) don't seem to have a problem dying or surrendering.

(Antecdotal evidence, I realise.) I just restarted an CHS scenario, and the IJA is having no probs conquering Malaya. Singapore is gonna fall in the 2nd week of January. (One of the reasons I dont play a human is that the AI still is a handfull for me. Or maybe I shouldn't have said that...)

Do AI controlled formations have a better chance at surviving?

Do they (AI controlled LCU's) have lowered supply requirements and effects?

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 15
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/20/2006 12:38:25 AM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees
It seems that the Allied formations (at least, non chinese) don't seem to have a problem dying or surrendering.



greetings....

are you talking about allied base hex strictly? if not, i'm assure that all allied units behaviour as japanese - they don't surrender.....

It took me a quite a long to force surrender of encircled Aussie inf division on open hex (pauk's corner AAR)

_____________________________


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Post #: 16
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/20/2006 12:59:57 AM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

are you talking about allied base hex strictly? if not, i'm assure that all allied units behaviour as japanese - they don't surrender.....


No. I had some units in Malaya caught off from legal retreat paths in a non base hex. The AI playing the IJA killed them with their second shock attack (in two days, one right after another. Move in on day one, shock attack. Day two, shock attack, and the white flags came out.), and they got less than 10-1 odds in thier favor.

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 17
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/20/2006 1:30:37 AM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
hmmm... i do not know about AI but i have similiar situations like you've discribed but in PBEM.... and they did not surrender after one, two or more attacks....it took me a looong time to defeat them....






_____________________________


(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 18
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/20/2006 2:12:02 AM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk


hmmm... i do not know about AI but i have similiar situations like you've discribed but in PBEM.... and they did not surrender after one, two or more attacks....it took me a looong time to defeat them....




That's what I hear. I don't disbelieve those stories. I just wish my units would do the same thing.

Ah well. Builds character, right?

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 19
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/20/2006 4:17:17 AM   
afspret


Posts: 851
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Hanahan, SC
Status: offline 		Never mind, three turns after patching to 1.8 I completely wiped out the IJA 38th Inf Div.
A coincidence, maybe, but I ain't going to complain about!

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 20
RE: Wondering why I can't crack this base - 4/20/2006 2:08:33 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

I must point out that Koepang has been under my control since turn 1 and they have not gotten any supplies since I obliderated a re-supply TF about 2 months ago. I can't understand why they haven't died on the vine, or at least fallen back from the Koepang hex.


AI does use transport planes for airlifting supply. If you don't have CAP in place, that might happen. And barges acan sneak in..but those should at least be spotted. And if you are playing against AI on Very hard, good luck trying to get AI units out of supply. They have *huge* bonus on Very Hard.

(in reply to afspret)
Post #: 21
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