RE: This is REALLY SAD...

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RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 2:10:34 AM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
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From: Combat Information Center
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I must concur with Alby on these requests to make changes.

Folks, WE did our research...we loked in books, visited websites, compared data, made decisions. The end result is what you see in the Mod. It's not perfect; there are mistakes and errors in it, which we intend to correct as we find them.

However, we won't be doing research to prove YOUR claim. That's YOUR responsibility; if any of you have differing information that supports your claim, please provide it to us. Book titles and page numbers, web links, etc. YOU must do the research for yourselves.

Better yet, use the tools provided with the game and make your own Mod. If you don't have valid factual data to back up a claim, no problem. Just change what you want to whatever you want in your own version.

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(in reply to Alby)

Post #: 31

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 3:14:57 AM

omegaall

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Joined: 7/28/2003
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reference:
http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/snlf/snlf.html

SNLF units jumped trained in 41. So they should be available at this point. But its only a game!

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 32

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 3:17:59 AM

KG Erwin

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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

However, have you researched into Japanese paratroop ops in China? AFAIK they conducted a few there well before the pacific war started.

Well, don't keep us in suspense -- please educate us.

Oh, this guy is a WiTP fan -- I guess he just dropped in to stir up some sh*t.

Give us some data, man, or just go away.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 6/14/2006 3:22:52 AM >

(in reply to String)

Post #: 33

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 3:29:52 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
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Now Gunny, play nice

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Post #: 34

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 3:34:04 AM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

I just realized the Title of this thread, so NO
the Japanese do not get TransPOT planes.

Ok, let's play nice -- for what-if's, yeah, some transport planes need to be in certain OOBs -- don't know what the Japanese used, but the Marines could borrow some planes from the Army, which is probably what would've happened if they ever needed them.

The Airborne drops in Europe were one thing, but the German experience on Crete convinced the Americans that paratroop drops on a defended island was nothing more than a suicide mission. No go in the Pacific.

I beg your pardon Glenn, but MY old unit was dropped onto Corregidor, by parachute!!
To this day, the 503rd PIR is called "The Rock", and it's regimental emblem shows the eagle over "The Rock"........

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Post #: 35

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 3:38:07 AM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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I just read past Glenn's comment ref "lack of U.S. paradrops in the Pacific" and noted with pleasure somebody had already mentioned the Corregidor jump..Others were made in New Guinea as well....
To coin an airborne phrase, I was ready to "stand in the door" on this one.......

< Message edited by m10bob -- 6/14/2006 3:39:31 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 4:17:49 AM

KG Erwin

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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Well, I see that the guy who started this (Forgorin) has fallen silent.   I think he just wants to keep discussion going, and that's fine.

As for editing the OOBs to match your personal preferences, yes, I've done it, and they MAY or MAY NOT screw up any attempts to play scenarios.   No matter to me --I'm a campaign player.

You shouldn't fear experimenting with the OOBs -- just backup the originals in another folder, and you can do as you please.

Don't expect the mod team to jump each time a pet peeve comes up -- you guys have the same tools as OOB designers have, and you can alter the database to your heart's content.

(in reply to Alby)

Post #: 37

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 4:24:17 AM

Twotribes

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From: Jacksonville NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Just checked the transport is available from Jan 40 to end of 45, the actual formation with the aircraft in it is available from Jan 40 to end of 43.

In 43 the glider becomes available and it remains available through the end of 45.

This was in the enhanced version.

However I have noticed that some countries can buy tranport aircraft as core units and some can not. Japan can not.

You may only buy transports in your Core Force if a) the Campaign routine determines that your nation has air assets available for the date/theater, or b) you change the Air Sections in the Preferences Screen to anything but the default XXX. Each number in this setting, up to a maximum of 25, gets you one Air Section (formation). In the case of a), you may not receive enough Sections to buy enough transports for an entire Core.

This whole problem with transports and core forces is not because of the OOBs; it is a function of the way the Campaign Generator routine is written, and what parameters were set by the programmers for Air Availability for each nation.

Even setting the air assets number does not allow for air transport as some countries. As Japan the air craft and formation exsist and I have set the air assets group number to no avail. This was in 1940 in China, and no the first mission was not so dark aircraft were not avaialble.

As for the bit about airctraft being a progammer thing, I am well aware of that.

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 38

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 6:32:46 AM

FlashfyreSP

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Well, I just started one. WWII Campaign, 1941, against China, and could buy transports and paratroops.

Lot of factors involved here...check them all. Sometimes one will be in effect when you start the campaign, but not later. Weather, # of air sections, visibility, mission, campaign date and location, etc. If it doesn't work once, try again.

Mission type is critical: you cannot perform air drops unless Advancing or Assaulting. The game will not provide transports for other mission types. And in the generated campaign (not the WWII one), no transports are allowed as core force units. This appears to be another of those coding issues.

So, is everybody clear on the availability of air transports for campaigns now?

< Message edited by FlashfyreSP -- 6/14/2006 6:39:00 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 6:47:14 AM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
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From: Combat Information Center
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quote:

ORIGINAL: omegaall

reference:
http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/snlf/snlf.html

SNLF units jumped trained in 41. So they should be available at this point. But its only a game!

And they are. Paratroops and transports are both available in 1941. That was not in dispute...but claims that Japanese paratroops dropped in China before 1940 are, and will need verification; we found no such evidence.

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Post #: 40

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 8:39:36 AM

chief

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From: Haines City FL, USA
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Gunny: The Malines used Naval Aviation Units for training and for any Airdrops they needed.

Since the Marines are part of the US Navy, oh yes they are, they get their support from the Navy.

Now they don't have to fire from the rigging anymore.

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"God Bless America and All the Young men and women who give their all to protect Her"....chief

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 41

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 11:52:27 AM

Twotribes

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From: Jacksonville NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chief

Gunny: The Malines used Naval Aviation Units for training and for any Airdrops they needed. Since the Marines are part of the US Navy, oh yes they are, they get their support from the Navy. Now they don't have to fire from the rigging anymore.

Using your insistance that Marines are part of the Navy is akin to saying any civilian employed by the Department of the Navy are sailors also. The Marine Corps falls under the Department of the Navy and while afloat is sometimes commanded by Naval officers. No arguement there.

BUT the Marines are NOT part of the Navy. In fact they are a seperate service as you well know.

I guess everyone is really in No military service as they all fall under the Department of Defense. Just one big happy family.

(in reply to chief)

Post #: 42

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 11:58:08 AM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Well, I just started one. WWII Campaign, 1941, against China, and could buy transports and paratroops.

Lot of factors involved here...check them all. Sometimes one will be in effect when you start the campaign, but not later. Weather, # of air sections, visibility, mission, campaign date and location, etc. If it doesn't work once, try again.

Mission type is critical: you cannot perform air drops unless Advancing or Assaulting. The game will not provide transports for other mission types. And in the generated campaign (not the WWII one), no transports are allowed as core force units. This appears to be another of those coding issues.

So, is everybody clear on the availability of air transports for campaigns now?

I am not claiming you or anyone else doing a mod had anything to do with Core units not allowing Airtrans.

In 1940 ( not 1941) the Japanese can not have airtrans in their core units to my knowledge, I have restarted the campaign many times, I have gotten Advances and no Air trans in core force.

I did start one 1941 as japan and also had no air trans in core, but cant remember what the first mission was. This has been true before the enhanced mod came out and I FULLY understand it is a programming issue outside the control of any modder.

If you got them in core then it is simply random which in effect means pointless, unless one wants to restart the campaign over and over until they get lucky enough to get them.

Thanks for the info. I can be stubborn, so once I figure out cost and numbers and formations I will probably do just that, restart over and over till I get what I want.

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 43

RE: This is REALLY SAD... - 6/14/2006 12:58:30 PM

Twotribes

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From: Jacksonville NC
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Ok I finally got air trans as core forces in 40. I didnt have them with a visibility of 14 but did get them at a visibility of 16 ( and it was a delay mission at that).

So it would seem by this that the claim that any mission will allow them is true, but that visibilty of that firt mission must be 15 or 16 minimum ( had a mission with a visibility of 14 that didnt allow them it was an Advance)

So totally hit or miss depending on visibility it seems.

Told ya i am stubborn )

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 44

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 1:52:47 PM

String

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From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

However, have you researched into Japanese paratroop ops in China? AFAIK they conducted a few there well before the pacific war started.

Well, don't keep us in suspense -- please educate us.

Oh, this guy is a WiTP fan -- I guess he just dropped in to stir up some sh*t.

Give us some data, man, or just go away.

Hey now, how did I deserve this? Besides, I've been playing SPWAW long before WitP came out.

My claim doesn't have any research to back it up (yet). I had heard that either in the 1st or 2nd (or both) battles of Changsha the japanese had used paratroops. I'll try looking into it.

edit: found a reference *here*, check september 27.

It's much later than I thought.

< Message edited by String -- 6/14/2006 2:01:48 PM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 45

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 2:40:26 PM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
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From: Combat Information Center
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On a related note: There is little benefit to be gained from having air transports in a Core Force for a campaign. They perform equally as well, whether Core or Support. Experience gained does not affect their ability to drop units; "green" pilots will be as successful as "veteran" pilots in dropping their passengers accurately. This was confrmed by Mike Woods; the code does not consider transport experience when conducting drop accuracy checks.

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Post #: 46

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/14/2006 6:17:36 PM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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Well yes, I dont expect any gain by having them. In fact in one sense they are a hinderance as you must pay for them and use up limited troop slots in your core force.

However the advantage is that since I plan to use them as a Battalion with non airborne Support I will always have the airtrans to move my companies.

Basicly I lose 36 units to aircraft and it costs me 642 points I cant use for other things. Also on those missions where I dont drop any Para I will have to either put them somewhere on the map ( unrealistic) or schedule them all empty for a drop at or near the end of the battle.

It takes 12 transport to move a Japanese Airborne Company. Such companies are lacking in anti tank and support weapons ( as are all para units across all countries). There are no gliders to carry heavier equipment and once I switch from China to Pacific the terrain wont be conducive to air drops.

Just something I wanna play with.

(in reply to FlashfyreSP)

Post #: 47

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/15/2006 12:10:39 AM

Alby

Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

However, have you researched into Japanese paratroop ops in China? AFAIK they conducted a few there well before the pacific war started.

Well, don't keep us in suspense -- please educate us.

Oh, this guy is a WiTP fan -- I guess he just dropped in to stir up some sh*t.

Give us some data, man, or just go away.

Hey now, how did I deserve this? Besides, I've been playing SPWAW long before WitP came out.

My claim doesn't have any research to back it up (yet). I had heard that either in the 1st or 2nd (or both) battles of Changsha the japanese had used paratroops. I'll try looking into it.

edit: found a reference *here*, check september 27.

It's much later than I thought.

Sept 27th
1941
see we aint all bad

Good Gaming!

_____________________________

(in reply to String)

Post #: 48

RE: Dont the Japanese rate transpot planes? - 6/15/2006 1:33:16 AM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

However, have you researched into Japanese paratroop ops in China? AFAIK they conducted a few there well before the pacific war started.

Well, don't keep us in suspense -- please educate us.

Oh, this guy is a WiTP fan -- I guess he just dropped in to stir up some sh*t.

Give us some data, man, or just go away.

Hey now, how did I deserve this? Besides, I've been playing SPWAW long before WitP came out.

My claim doesn't have any research to back it up (yet). I had heard that either in the 1st or 2nd (or both) battles of Changsha the japanese had used paratroops. I'll try looking into it.

edit: found a reference *here*, check september 27.

It's much later than I thought.

Sept 27th
1941
see we aint all bad

Good Gaming!