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RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 2:54:59 AM   
rtrapasso


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"First, many of the witnesses stated that they heard two distinct explosions several seconds apart. If anything else besides a mine had triggered the magazine explosion, then witnesses would have only heard one blast, because the only explosion would have been of the magazines. The only reason that two explosions would have been heard is if something besides the magazine had exploded, such as a mine. A coal bunker fire would have caused the magazines to explode, but it would not have caused an additional explosion.

Another piece of evidence of an external mine was the observations of divers who examined the bottom plates of the Maine. These bottom plates were all bent inward. If an internal explosion had occurred, the bottom plates would have been bent outward, away from the explosion. An external blast would have blown the plates inward, consistent with the evidence. A large hole in the side of the hull was also observed with the edges bent inward. On the floor of Havana Harbor, a large hole was noticed, presumably from the explosion, although it could be argued that an explosion of that magnitude would have put a hole in the harbor floor, regardless of whether the explosion was internal or external."

You could postulate that maybe the bottom plates were bent in from the reflected wave - there is no way this could have happened to a hole in the SIDE of the ship...

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Post #: 91
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 2:56:45 AM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Lastly, we have this:

"In 1999, to commemorate the centennial of the sinking of the Maine, National Geographic Magazine commissioned an analysis by Advanced Marine Enterprises, using computer modeling that was not available for previous investigations. The AME analysis examined both theories and concluded that “it appears more probable than was previously concluded that a mine caused the inward bent bottom structure and the detonation of the magazines.” Some experts, including some of Admiral Rickover’s team and several analysts at AME, do not agree with the conclusion, and the fury over new findings even spurred a heated 90-minute debate at the 124th annual meeting of the U.S. Naval Institute."

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Post #: 92
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 2:58:31 AM   
BrucePowers


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Status: offline 		Robert;
Does this link help.

Bruce

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/lc_maine_salv.html

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Post #: 93
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 3:11:12 AM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Thanks Bruce! Here is one photo of the bottom (but from another site, not the one i remember, though):






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 94
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 3:20:52 AM   
rtrapasso


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Status: offline 		Now, note - i am note saying that a mine definitely sank the Maine... there are real problems with the mining theory, and so i think the whole thing is up in the air.

There are 4 major investigations - 3 say the ship was mined (or probably mined), and one (the Rickover report) says that coal bunker fires heated up the magazines causing them to explode (not coal dust explosion).


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Post #: 95
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 3:20:57 AM   
BrucePowers


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Status: offline 		Here is another web site (Arlington National Cemetary). It gives an overview of what Robert has discussed in better detail. It does point to additional material for those who want to read more.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/ussmaine.htm

Robert;
I did not mean to take the thread so far off topic.

Bruce

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Post #: 96
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 3:24:20 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

Here is another web site (Arlington National Cemetary). It gives an overview of what Robert has discussed in better detail. It does point to additional material for those who want to read more.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/ussmaine.htm

Robert;
I did not mean to take the thread so far off topic.

Bruce


Hey - this is fine by me!

But if anyone does find a ship which survived more than 2 torps in a voyage (and got back to port, or otherwise didn't sink) - let me know!!!

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Post #: 97
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 6:16:14 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Considering that she ate twenty-three heavy-calibre shells, yeah...


It helped that most of the shells exploded prematurely before full penetration.


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Post #: 98
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 1:55:34 PM   
Przemcio231


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Status: offline 		Well the Germans BC's did do a lot better then their Brit Counterpart's who had a tendency to Blow up... 3 in one battle and the 4th over 20 yars later...

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Post #: 99
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 1:58:43 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Considering that she ate twenty-three heavy-calibre shells, yeah...


It helped that most of the shells exploded prematurely before full penetration.



That's always good. Faulty fuze settings or otherwise poor ammo handling plagued the Royal Navy at the time.

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Post #: 100
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 4:35:36 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Well the Germans BC's did do a lot better then their Brit Counterpart's who had a tendency to Blow up... 3 in one battle and the 4th over 20 yars later...


Yes, due to poor quality propellant primarily. While the German BC's were better protected, had the RN not at that time been plauged with the before mentioned issue, its likely that none of the 3 BC's with the possible exception of Indefatigable would have been lost.

On the same token, had the British shells preformed to WWII specifications (or closer to the time period...."Greenboy" shells).....its highly likely several German capital ships would have been lost. This is not to take away from the German capital's stout construction reputation....but the RN issues were a major factor in their survival as well as the deaths of the three unfortuanate British captials.

I would also agree that Hipper outfought Beatty who preformed poorly and rashly in stark comparison to Jellicoe's fine handling vs. Scheer's bumbling.

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Post #: 101
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 5:28:54 PM   
Przemcio231


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Status: offline 		Jellico was deamn lucky as he had to chose to deploy fleet left or right... the information provided by Beatty were inacuret he guesed right... and crossed the Sheer's T if he would the other option then the Sheer would croos his T...

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Post #: 102
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 6:01:49 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		No luck involved. Jellicoe analysed the situation and made the right decisions. Scheer was the one who got lucky. Masse's "Castles of Steel" is a great read on Jellicoe. I highly recommend it.

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Post #: 103
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 7:08:32 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Status: offline 		Me too. Fantastic read. Recommend every Military Historian reads it.

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Post #: 104
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 7:52:46 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Status: offline 		Note that British BCs were also able to absorb 20 heavy shells without sinking unless one of them reached magazines. Look at Lion at Dogger Bank.

For me most interesting thing in Jutland Battle is Charge of Arbuthnot's Armoured Cruiser Brigade. What this guy thought about?

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Post #: 105
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 8:09:37 PM   
Przemcio231


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From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Well maybe he wanted to repeat Charge of the Light Brigade...

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Post #: 106
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 8:35:49 PM   
MkXIV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

+ it was discovered that her armored deck was not watertight which caused slow progressive flooding to spread.




Hell of a time to find that out

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Post #: 107
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/21/2006 11:36:38 PM   
mlees


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quote:

For me most interesting thing in Jutland Battle is Charge of Arbuthnot's Armoured Cruiser Brigade. What this guy thought about?


I could be wrong, but I think he was after the German light cruisers (like the Dead in the Water Wiesbaden) that were milling about in between the battle lines.

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Post #: 108
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 12:13:03 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

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Status: offline 		And wasnt noticing nothing else... for example he didnt saw BB Lion, which had to rapidly change course to not ram Arbuthnot's flagship...

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Post #: 109
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 12:19:03 AM   
BrucePowers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

No luck involved. Jellicoe analysed the situation and made the right decisions. Scheer was the one who got lucky. Masse's "Castles of Steel" is a great read on Jellicoe. I highly recommend it.


I agree with Nik. It is a very good book. Another of his books, Dreadnaught, about the leadup to WWI is also very good.

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Post #: 110
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 12:52:44 AM   
mogami


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Status: offline 		Hi, I think there are quite a few examples of ships hit by 2 torpedos that would have survuved. The problem is when a ship can be hit by 2 torpedos it can be hit by 3 or 4 or 5 or 6.  I think there are cases where ships had been hit by 3 or more and were controlling the damage but then they were hit by more.

So it is not a case of ships not being able to survive 2 hits it's being able to limit the amount of hits. (cause the enemy just keeps dropping them till you sink. No one ever seems to run out of torpedos in actual war they always have enough to sink even the largest ships.)

There was a USN DD that survived 5 (count em) kamikaze hits in less then 24 hour period. I'll find the link. (found it when we were working on kamikaze accuracy and damage) But you also have CV/CVE sinking after just 1

< Message edited by Mogami -- 6/22/2006 12:53:21 AM >

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Post #: 111
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 1:09:16 AM   
MkXIV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I think there are quite a few examples of ships hit by 2 torpedos that would have survuved. The problem is when a ship can be hit by 2 torpedos it can be hit by 3 or 4 or 5 or 6.  I think there are cases where ships had been hit by 3 or more and were controlling the damage but then they were hit by more.

So it is not a case of ships not being able to survive 2 hits it's being able to limit the amount of hits. (cause the enemy just keeps dropping them till you sink. No one ever seems to run out of torpedos in actual war they always have enough to sink even the largest ships.)

There was a USN DD that survived 5 (count em) kamikaze hits in less then 24 hour period. I'll find the link. (found it when we were working on kamikaze accuracy and damage) But you also have CV/CVE sinking after just 1



Good point how many did Yorktown take before the I boat finished her? Also look what it took to sink Hornet (albeit she did sink)

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RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 1:20:27 AM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

No luck involved. Jellicoe analysed the situation and made the right decisions. Scheer was the one who got lucky. Masse's "Castles of Steel" is a great read on Jellicoe. I highly recommend it.


Scheer was a guy who could think on his feet. Luck had little to do with it.


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RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 1:39:43 AM   
BrucePowers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

No luck involved. Jellicoe analysed the situation and made the right decisions. Scheer was the one who got lucky. Masse's "Castles of Steel" is a great read on Jellicoe. I highly recommend it.


Scheer was a guy who could think on his feet. Luck had little to do with it.




I also don't think Beatty was the right person for the job.

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Post #: 114
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 4:37:15 AM   
mogami


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Status: offline 		Hi, What was the name of the hard of hearing RN Admiral who when Queen Victoria asked how his wife was doing thought she was asking about his ship and answered "Having her bottom scraped" (Made Vic laugh for quite a while)

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Post #: 115
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 11:20:56 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

OK - here is a question that has come to mind?

What is the most "functioning" torpedoes a ship has been hit with and eventually made it back to port, or if in port, did not sink at its moorings?

By "functioning", i mean torpedoes that hit a ship and had full-order explodsions (not fail to explode, not "squib" explosions.)

Don't give example like "ship x was hit by umpteen torpedoes, but didn't sink until it was hit by umpteen plus one"... Ship has got to survive the experience without settling to the bottom...

EDIT - Oh, yeah - i'm talking real life here, not WITP...



In history?

The Hornet refused to sink when scuttled. The Japanese thought seriously about towing it home.

Based on design?

The Midway class were designed to have a p50 of sinking at 5 hits (standard torpedo warhead of 500 kg); 4 on one side. The Iowa class had a p50 of 9 hits. The Yamatos were in excess of that.

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RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 11:23:46 AM   
herwin

 

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Status: offline 		Why do you show the Kumano in her CL configuration?

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Post #: 117
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 11:26:54 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Considering that she ate twenty-three heavy-calibre shells, yeah...


It helped that most of the shells exploded prematurely before full penetration.



That's always good. Faulty fuze settings or otherwise poor ammo handling plagued the Royal Navy at the time.


Actually, the problem was with the acceptance criteria for ammunition lots. They would fire a random AP shell. If that performed to spec, they accepted the lot. If not, they fired a second shell. Only if both failed did they reject the lot.

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Post #: 118
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 11:42:09 AM   
herwin

 

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ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Ok so i have a little riddle for you... you were searching for torpedo "Magnet"  so maybe some one know what was the smallest amount of ordanance responsible for sinking  a BB it dose not matter Shell's , Torpedos or Mines...


Mutsu. Faulty ammo blew up in her magazine one fine June day in 1943, so the answer is zero.

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Post #: 119
RE: Torpedo Magnet "Record"? - 6/22/2006 1:31:32 PM   
MarcA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Ok so i have a little riddle for you... you were searching for torpedo "Magnet" so maybe some one know what was the smallest amount of ordanance responsible for sinking a BB it dose not matter Shell's , Torpedos or Mines...


Mutsu. Faulty ammo blew up in her magazine one fine June day in 1943, so the answer is zero.


I would say if Mutzu's magazine exploded one day the ammount of ordinance used to sink her was all of it, not zero.

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