Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Scenario Design >> Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack

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Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 5:17:27 AM

Wineguy

Posts: 24
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

Running scenario 157, surprise on, received the following results for turn one at PH, a Japanese nightmare. 38 zeroes down and less allied planes destroyed than Jap. Way different to Historic results. SHould this be considered a lousy dice roll or is someting else amiss?

Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 114,72
>
> Japanese aircraft
> A6M2 Zero x 90
> D3A2 Val x 137
> B5N2 Kate x 157
>
> Allied aircraft
> F4F-3 Wildcat x 1
> P-26A x 6
> P-36A Mohawk x 8
> P-40B Tomahawk x 13
> P-40E Warhawk x 2
>
> Japanese aircraft losses
> A6M2 Zero: 38 destroyed, 14 damaged
> D3A2 Val: 23 destroyed, 91 damaged
> B5N2 Kate: 19 destroyed, 67 damaged
>
> Allied aircraft losses
> F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
> P-26A: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
> P-36A Mohawk: 10 destroyed
> P-40B Tomahawk: 13 destroyed
> P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed
> SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 destroyed
> OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 2 destroyed
> B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed
> PBY Catalina: 14 destroyed
> SB2U Vindicator: 1 destroyed
> B-18A Bolo: 5 destroyed
> B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed
> A-20B Boston: 3 destroyed
> C-47 Dakota: 1 destroyed

Regards, Steve.

Post #: 1

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 5:24:32 AM

Ron Saueracker

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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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Surprise ON? Were your fighters set to strafe? Is this the NikModesque FLAK from HELL version?

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(in reply to Wineguy)

Post #: 2

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 6:04:01 AM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
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From: West Yellowstone, Montana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Surprise ON? Were your fighters set to strafe? Is this the NikModesque FLAK from HELL version?

for the second part, yes 157 has the FLAK from Hell

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(in reply to Ron Saueracker)

Post #: 3

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 7:53:10 AM

akdreemer

Posts: 1028
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Surprise ON? Were your fighters set to strafe? Is this the NikModesque FLAK from HELL version?

for the second part, yes 157 has the FLAK from Hell

The problem seems to be three fold:
1- The US LCU now have their historical weapon quantites, especially in .50 cal MG's.
2- The US LCU's were caught with their pants down around their ankles (Sunday morning and peace time routines)
3- The effectiveness of HMG's is over rated in the game.

Possible solutions:
1- Cannot see much that can be done here except to remove these weapons. Not a real solutions since they really did exist, indeed in greater quatities than in the game. I had often wandered why the US LCU's did not have their correct allotment of M2 Bownings present in the stock scenarios. Ditto for the AAA units.
2- Have the US LCU's come in as reinforcements on 411207 instead of 421206, thus not being present during the attack (Inf, CD, and AAA units).
3- Decrease the effectiveness of all HMG's and set their range out to 1. This would discourage straffing attacks, which historically is what these MG's were for.

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 4

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 8:45:52 AM

Andrew Brown

Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
The problem seems to be three fold:
1- The US LCU now have their historical weapon quantites, especially in .50 cal MG's.
2- The US LCU's were caught with their pants down around their ankles (Sunday morning and peace time routines)
3- The effectiveness of HMG's is over rated in the game.

Actually I am not sure that the HMGs are the problem. I have been running some tests of my own and I have yet to see a result as bad as the one posted by Wineguy.

Note that there was one important change in CHS 2.04 I forgot to add to the documentation - all AA MGs had their ceilings reduced to 1/3 their previous value.

Here are the Japanese aircraft losses from my latest batch of tests with CHS 2.04. I ran three tests with each of the following scenarios:

- Scenario 15 (stock)
- CHS 1.02
- CHS 2.04 standard
- CHS 2.04 "Nik Mod"
- CHS 2.04 experimental

Here are my results:

Stock Scenario 15:
Test number 1:
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed, 11 damaged
D3A Val: 5 destroyed, 43 damaged
B5N Kate: 14 destroyed, 36 damaged

Test number 2:
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
D3A Val: 9 destroyed, 51 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 destroyed, 28 damaged

Test number 3:
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 6 damaged
D3A Val: 12 destroyed, 42 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 destroyed, 29 damaged

CHS 1.02:
Test number 1:
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 9 damaged
D3A2 Val: 4 destroyed, 46 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed, 30 damaged

Test number 2:
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed, 9 damaged
D3A2 Val: 11 destroyed, 44 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 12 destroyed, 49 damaged

Test number 3:
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 6 damaged
D3A2 Val: 12 destroyed, 45 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 5 destroyed, 43 damaged

CHS 2.04 Standard:
Test number 1:
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 9 damaged
D3A2 Val: 9 destroyed, 45 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 9 destroyed, 39 damaged

Test number 2:
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 16 damaged
D3A2 Val: 12 destroyed, 56 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 11 destroyed, 35 damaged

Test number 3:
A6M2 Zero: 13 destroyed, 9 damaged
D3A2 Val: 7 destroyed, 51 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 15 damaged

CHS 2.04 "Nik Mod":
Test number 1:
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 16 damaged
D3A2 Val: 13 destroyed, 68 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed, 52 damaged

Test number 2:
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 16 damaged
D3A2 Val: 7 destroyed, 59 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 16 destroyed, 74 damaged

Test number 3:
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 23 damaged
D3A2 Val: 7 destroyed, 80 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 35 damaged

CHS 2.04 experimental:
Test number 1:
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 12 damaged
D3A2 Val: 5 destroyed, 66 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 18 destroyed, 65 damaged

Test number 2:
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed, 18 damaged
D3A2 Val: 8 destroyed, 81 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 10 destroyed, 39 damaged

Test number 3:
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed, 19 damaged
D3A2 Val: 10 destroyed, 85 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 15 destroyed, 67 damaged

So losses due to AA are higher when the A2A changes are applied, but I have not seen results similar to those posted by Wineguy. Note that the AA losses in CHS 2.04 standard are not that different from the old CHS or stock, so I don't think that the LCU OOB changes had much effect, at least at this point in the scenario.

As to whether the increased AA effectiveness is a good thing or a bad thing, I don't have a current opinion on that one way or another.

Andrew

(in reply to akdreemer)

Post #: 5

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 1:57:29 PM

Wineguy

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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

Plane settings were not changed, all zeroes have airfield attack orders, rest port attack. I have the turn pre combat replay and post, would they be any use to you (Andrew) ? Also I assume just rerunning the turn will give identical results so the only way around this freak result would be to suck it up and play on or to redo the first turn from stratch?

Thanks for your help, Steve.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)

Post #: 6

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 2:50:29 PM

Andrew Brown

Posts: 5007
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wineguy

Plane settings were not changed, all zeroes have airfield attack orders, rest port attack. I have the turn pre combat replay and post, would they be any use to you (Andrew) ? Also I assume just rerunning the turn will give identical results so the only way around this freak result would be to suck it up and play on or to redo the first turn from stratch?

Thanks for your help, Steve.

Thanks but I don't think it will help sending me the turn. I think the only thing to do is to see what the results are over a larger number of games. Obviously there is quite a range of possible outcomes, but this is as it should be, at least within reason. As I mention my test results seem to be OK. Time will tell I guess.

Andrew

(in reply to Wineguy)

Post #: 7

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 3:24:26 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

From the original post -

> Allied aircraft
> F4F-3 Wildcat x 1
> P-26A x 6
> P-36A Mohawk x 8
> P-40B Tomahawk x 13
> P-40E Warhawk x 2
>

Just an observation from the peanut gallery...shouldn't most of the US planes at PH start at Training - Training Level - Zero.

With one P-40 group set at CAP 10 or maybe 20 and a P-36 group likewise set at CAP 10-20? I do not have the scenario open but it should be the 46th and 47th and Pursuit Squadrons. IIRC only a handful (12) of US planes (P-40's and P-36's) got into the air to contest the Japanese on Dec 7. Even the PBY's should be set at Nav Search - Search Level 10.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Andrew Brown)

Post #: 8

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 3:32:02 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
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Tree,
We are doing a non-historical first turn and I am allowed to adjust the altitude and mission for Allied air force. I have set CAP at a max of 50% with altitude from 15k to 25k. From my observations it hasn't helped much (except in this example) as most of the squadrons are short on pilots and/or have damaged planes. Plus, their morale is in the 50's or lower.

_____________________________

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Post #: 9

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 3:41:15 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

I like the experimental version very much so far. Plays very well.

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 10

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 3:57:29 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Tree,
We are doing a non-historical first turn and I am allowed to adjust the altitude and mission for Allied air force. I have set CAP at a max of 50% with altitude from 15k to 25k. From my observations it hasn't helped much (except in this example) as most of the squadrons are short on pilots and/or have damaged planes. Plus, their morale is in the 50's or lower.

Ahhhh so there is the original posters explanation....non-historical play begets non-historical results. If the US aircraft are aloft, flying missions, they are not sitting on the airfield waiting to get whacked...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 11

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 5:03:10 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

What were the historical damage statistics for the Japanese at Pearl Harbor?

I'm doing an ANOVA on the data posted.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Andrew Brown)

Post #: 12

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 6:12:04 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

What were the historical damage statistics for the Japanese at Pearl Harbor?

I'm doing an ANOVA on the data posted.

The Japanese lost 29 planes destroyed, 74 damaged at Pearl Harbor...I'm at work at the moment and will need sometime to dig up the statistics...but it was 9 planes in the first wave and 20 in the second.

< Message edited by treespider -- 6/27/2006 6:13:37 PM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 13

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 6:36:40 PM

treespider

Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
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Found this on the web....
http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Pearl_Harbor.htm

Japanese Aircraft Losses

Kido Butai lost 29 planes to all causes over Pearl Harbour. A total of 55 aviators were lost, including those in aircraft that returned to the carriers. An additional 111 planes were damaged of which twenty were later written off.

The planes lost during the actual attack on Pearl Harbor are broken down as follows:

Wave 1: 9 Planes Lost

Akagi: 1 A6M2
Kaga: 2 A6M2, 5 B5N2
Shokaku: 1 D3A

Wave 2: 20 Planes Lost

Akagi: 4 D3A1
Kaga: 2 A6M2, 6 D3A1
Hiryu: 1 A6M2, 2 D3A1
Soryu: 3 A6M2, 2 D3A1

The breakdown of lost or written-off planes is as follows:

The first wave lost 21 aircraft (3 A6M, 16 B5N and 2 D3A).
The second wave lost 34 aircraft (6 A6M and 28 D3A).

The aircrew losses were as follows:

Carrier Akagi�10 KIA
1st Wave:
Takeshi Hirano A6M
Shigeharu Sugaya B5N
2nd Wave:
Hajime Goto D3A
Kinsuke Homma D3A
Hirokichi Kinoshita D3A
Seiichi Ota D3A
Toshio Oyama D3A
Kiyoshi Sakamoto D3A
Chuji Shimakura D3A
Doshi Utsuki D3A

Carrier Hiryu�5 KIA
2nd Wave
Isamu Kiyomura D3A
Hajime Murao D3A
Shigenori Nishikaichi A6M
Yoshio Shimizu D3A
Korevoshi Sotoyama D3A

Carrier Kaga�31 KIA
1st Wave
Toru Haneda A6M
Syuzo Kitahara B5N
Kenichi Kumamoto B5N
Yoshiharu Machimoto B5N
Yoshizo Masuda B5N
Isamu Matsuda B5N
Tsuneki Morita B5N
Izumi Nagai B5N
Nafikatsu Ohashi B5N
Toshio Onishi B5N
Seinoshin Sano A6M
Yoshio Shimizu B5N
Mitsumori Suzuki B5N
Hidemi Takeda B5N
Tomoharu Takeda B5N
Yonetaro Ueda B5N
Nobuo Umezu B5N

2nd Wave:
Nagaaki Asahi D3A
Toshiaki Bando D3A
Ippei Goto A6M
Fumio Hirshima D3A
Fukumitsu Imai D3A
Tomio Inenaga A6M
Kazuyoshi Kuwabata D3A
Saburo Makino D3A
Tsuneo Minamizaki D3A
Iwao Oka D3A
Shingenori Onikura D3A
Noboru Sakaguchi D3A
Sueo Sukida D3A
Nobuo Tsuda D3A

Carrier Shokaku�2 KIA
1st Wave:
Kunio Iwatsuki D3A
Tetsusaburo Kumazo D3A

Carrier Soryu�7 KIA
2nd Wave:
Shunichi Atsumi A6M
Fusata Iida A6M
Saburo Ishii A6M
Satoru Kawasaki D3A
Hideyasu Kuwabara D3A
Kenji Maruyama D3A
Ryochi Takahashi D3A

These 55 crewmen plus nine men killed and one captured on the minisubmarines were the only Japanese casualties of the battle.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to treespider)

Post #: 14

RE: Help - CHS 2.04 PH attack - 6/27/2006 8:42:33 PM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

Not enough independent runs to conclude anything.

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