Slitherine

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I have no strong feelings to putting either Tromsø or Bodø on the map, but I think we need to have some kind of consistency when adding ports. If you add ports like Vaasa, Oulu and Luleå then I think it's not wrong to add ports like Tromsø and/or Bodø. I guess there was more action along the Norwegian coast than in the Gulf of Bothnia. If I remember correctly the German battleship of Tirpitz was sunk close to Tromsø hiding in the fjord there.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

About the Clear hex east of the lake, that was proposed to be turned into a mountain :

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I've been all across Norway at work (including Røros) and I know that the terrain here is not very army friendly. It's a 2MP hex (not a 1MP hex).

What about making it Forest ? It is 1 MP for leg units, but 2 MP for motorized units. And Blitz Breakthrough are impossible. Blitz attacks are possible, but not Breakthrough.

Or it can also be made Tundra (2 MP for leg, 3 MP for MOT), but combat is normal.

Well forest is maybe the best compromise, isn't it ?

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

By the way, I still have relatives in the Malmo area. In fact, a couple of my cousins from New Jersey are presently on vacation visiting the old ancestral home in Vitemule (spelling?). I was there once and listened to its "singing sands".

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ORIGINAL: c92nichj

During the latter part of the 20th century the government became more dominated by the finnish people and the finnishification(?) increased in strength this is why the Finnish version of the names are more common in modern maps.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp Here's an update about the votes :

Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 67 % / NO : 33 % City / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Third largest city.

Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) 5 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % City, Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 33 % / NO : 67 % Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 33 % / NO : 67 % Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish.

Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian.

Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 25 % / NO : 75 % Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Removed.

Name of modification : Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 67 % / NO : 33 % Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Add. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Outline needs enhancing No -> Yes

Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Major Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 67 % / NO : 33 % Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Renammed Luleå (Lulea).

Name of modification : Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons.

Name of modification : Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Turku (Åbo) (37,46) (Borger) 4 Voters, YES : 75 % / NO : 25 % Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest Finnish city. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Rail / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail. I don't know this. But I suppose I vote yes if it's true.

Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex NW.

Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 50 % / NO : 50 % Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE.

Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Keep

Name of modification : Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) 5 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between Dannish Helsingor and Swedish Helsingborg. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Mountain. Change to forest is ok, not mountains.

Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 0 % / NO : 100 % Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.

Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 0 % / NO : 100 % Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.

Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become all Sea. No -> Yes

Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) 3 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : This glacier is placed close to Swedish border. Move the ice 1 hex SE.

Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest.

Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) 4 Voters, YES : 100 % / NO : 0 % Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide.

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Why is the 'Boden-hex' not a fortified hex? In the first half of the 20th century, Bodens fästning "The northern lock" was a effective Fortress. With a system of forts encircling 25 km with the city of Boden inside it. It contains roughly of 5 heavy artillery forts supported by flanking batteries and several infantry housing/storage forts some 1200 structures all in all. This supported by a garrison several mobile artillery divisions and infantry totalling about 15 000 men during the war. Built to protect the port of Luleå and the railway lines intersecting in Boden. So I'd would suggest that this fortress that might have been the strongest in northen europe (without a doubt the strongest in scandinavia) at the time warrants an all around fortress hex.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp
Well, why not after all.
Chances are high that Boden sees as much action in the game as in reality, so why not add an all around fortification.

But Toed, comparing Boden Fortifications to the Maginot Line, of the fortifications of Sebastopol, or the Fortifications of Singapore, are you really really sure that Boden would deserve the same fortifications ?
Please note that the Siegfried line is not represented on the WiF FE map, not at all, so are you still sure about Boden ?
Patrice

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

The bit I've highlighted in bold might be a counter argument to having fortifications all around this hex. If the hex has an area of 2500km, then the fort described above is of about 200 square km (if my back-of-the-envelope calculation is correctish), or 8% of the hex's area.

Also, are any of the fortifications in Boden along a hex boundary? I guess typically they are in the case of the Maginot etc, hence the difficulty of attacking into the hex. If not, then perhaps that hexside shouldn't be fortified.

Cheers, Neilster

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ORIGINAL: ullern

I will now propose making the resource hex of Norway a mountain hex. As Borger said some of the hex in the west is likely to be clear. But what is important when deciding the terrain?
-Possibly defending the resource? The resource is in my view representing the heavy water factory which was a rare commodity. The heavy water factory was in the mountains. The resource may also represent some mineral mines in the area. (Titanium I believe? important for aircraft _ but that may not have been exploited until after the war.) In any case defence of the resource would be in mountain.
-Secondly movement. If moving from Kristiansand to Stavanger you have to move through some serious rough terrain which will slow both infantry and motorized severely. There are no other movement directions worth considering.

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I also start thinking about the clear terrain hex in the far northern part of Norway.
I don't think that hex in Finnmark (close to Kautokeino) is terrain suitable for armor
breakthroughs.

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ORIGINAL: ullern

I will now propose making the resource hex of Norway a mountain hex. As Borger said some of the hex in the west is likely to be clear. But what is important when deciding the terrain?
-Possibly defending the resource? The resource is in my view representing the heavy water factory which was a rare commodity. The heavy water factory was in the mountains. The resource may also represent some mineral mines in the area. (Titanium I believe? important for aircraft _ but that may not have been exploited until after the war.) In any case defence of the resource would be in mountain.
-Secondly movement. If moving from Kristiansand to Stavanger you have to move through some serious rough terrain which will slow both infantry and motorized severely. There are no other movement directions worth considering.

I had a look at Google Earth of the area. Google earth doesn’t have much detail in the area though. But you can get a 3d view if you turn on terrain.

I will also suggest making hex (40,34) a sea hex (hex dot). Reason is the following google earth picture.

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
By the way, I still have relatives in the Malmo area. In fact, a couple of my cousins from New Jersey are presently on vacation visiting the old ancestral home in Vitemule (spelling?). I was there once and listened to its "singing sands".

I told you not to take the blue pills with the red pills.

Cheers, Neilster

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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I also start thinking about the clear terrain hex in the far northern part of Norway.
I don't think that hex in Finnmark (close to Kautokeino) is terrain suitable for armor
breakthroughs.

I would make it forest.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

[
The sand in Vitemoula (spelling?) is of a strange granularity. If you scuff your feet while walking along the dry sand, kicking streams of sand along in front of you, the sand on sand interaction produces a whistling sound. Hence the term singing sands.

I also saw black sand on the southern part of the island of Hawaii (a.k.a., Big Island). Solid black sand, somewhat course, making up an entire beach. It's volcanic rock, in the form of very small pebbles, that haven't yet been broken up by the wind and waves into 'normal' sand. That beach has since been mostly (perhaps completely?) destroyed by more recent lava flows.

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And by the way, the thing about the mountain hex. Does your comment mean it's vetoed?

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Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
3 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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And by the way, the thing about the mountain hex. Does your comment mean it's vetoed?

No, it's not, I've got no more rights than you to veto something. For me, only Steve has these rights. I was just expressing that I voted NO to this. I've got the privilege to be able to cast a vote immediately when a new suggestion is made, I was doing that.
In message #79 I included :

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Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
3 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

The 33% is me . The 37% ae you (ullern) and Borger .

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Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 1 (34,39) (Borger) : Change to Mountain.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

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Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland

Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Terrain / Finland

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Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

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Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
1 - Tampere (35,47) (Borger) Yes, it seems incorrect that all the Finnish units have to arrive in Helsinki

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3 - Turku (37,46) (Borger) Yes, but as minor port not as a city

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that it's quite important for Finland to have an alternative city to
place reinforcements.

I also notice that Norway can only place reinforcements in Oslo, but that doesn't matter because Norway will usually be wiped out in the Spring of 1940 or remain neutral if Germany is not attacking. So there aren't many units that would need to arrive. But Finland is an active country for a long part of WW2 and would definitely have several units arriving as reinforcements.

With Tampere as a city then Finland can continue to fight even though Russia has engaged Helsinki and try to outflank it. It forces the Soviet player to send units in the direction of Tampere to prevent Finnish reinforcements to relieve Helsinki. I'm thinking now more on the end-game than the Winter War. During the Winter War I think Finland will agree to an armistice before seeing it's army destroyed and Helsinki captured.