Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

No its a fair point new gps do get planes when they arrive but disbanded gps do draw planes when they re appear its only reinforcing gps that get free planes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I took the time to tabulate total allied aircraft production for the entire game. I then separated the US figures from all the rest, so in the first line there are a total of 1656 Allied factories, of which 780 of them produce US planes.

Start date.....Total factories.....US factories.....Upgradeable factories...Months in production

Start............1656...................780................340.............................45
Jan42...........315....................245................150..............................44
Mar42...........50.....................0....................0..................................42
Jun42...........200....................130................100..............................39
Jul42............90.....................90..................0...................................38
Sep42..........30......................0...................0....................................36
Oct42..........100.....................100...............80...................................35
Dec42..........110...................80..................0.....................................33
Jan43..........643....................415................250.................................32
Feb43..........150...................150................0......................................31
Mar43..........20.....................20.................0......................................30
Apr43..........150....................100...............0......................................29
May43.........100....................10.................0......................................28
Jun43..........90......................90.................0......................................27
Jul43...........754....................669................0......................................26
Sep43..........395....................355...............75....................................24
Oct43...........55.....................5...................0......................................23
Nov43...........300...................250...............0......................................22
Dec43...........194...................144...............0......................................21
Jan44............155...................100...............0......................................20
Mar44...........105....................105...............75....................................18
Apr44...........180....................180...............75....................................17
May44...........90.....................0...................0......................................16
Jun44............50.....................0...................0......................................15
Jul44.............50.....................0...................0......................................14
Sep44...........150...................150................75....................................12
Dec44...........40.....................0....................0.....................................9
Jan45...........90.....................40...................0......................................8


Total production is then calculated by multiplying the number of factories times the number of months that factory is in production through Aug45. So for example starting factories are multiplied by 45 months. Edit: I should note upgradeable factories are already included in the first two columns totals so don't count them again. I simply added them as a separate stat line to show how many allied factories eventually turn obsolete.

Total production:

200,069

Total US production:

126,863

Now we know Japans industry can build them about 140,000 total planes through the war given the numbers posted by Admiral Laurent in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1217199&mpage=7&key=

quote:

Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

So this proves beyond a doubt that Japan is far out producing the allies throughout the entire war given the fact that about 80% of allied factories are fixed and end up producing obsolete aircraft for most of the game. While Japans factories stay upgraded and keep producing top line aircraft for the entire game.

Japan is probably out producing the allies in first line aircraft by 2-1 or better for the whole game given the facts of these numbers.

So let’s take the year 1944 for example. Let’s assume all previous upgradeable factories are upgraded to front line equipment. Let’s assume that all factories producing aircraft from Jul43 are also producing front line aircraft.

So we start 1944 off with 1428 regular factories from Jul-Dec 1943 and an additional 920 upgraded factories from prior to Jul 1943. This gives us a total of 2348 factories plus another 155 that go online in Jan 1944 totaling 2503 factories. Here are the production numbers for front line aircraft in 1944 given these assumptions:

Jan44.....2503 factories times 12 months = 30,036
Mar44.....another 105 factories times 10 months = 1050
Apr44.....another 180 factories times 9 months = 720
May44.....another 90 factories times 8 months = 720
Jun44.....another 50 factories times 7 months = 350
Jul44.....another 50 factories times 6 months = 300
Sep44.....another 150 factories times 4 months = 600
Dec44.....another 10 factories

Total 1944 allied production = 33,786

Of this about 18k or so would be US production. I also seriously doubt all of these factories are producing front line equipment.

And according to Admiral Laurent’s figures quoted above, Japan will produce 45k+ aircraft in the same period. Of which 100% is front line equipment due to 100% upgradeable factories.

Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear
What happens if you do the same sort of analysis on pilot "production" and quality?

quote:


In 1942 USN pilot training programs started to ramp up; 10,869 aviators received their wings of gold, almost twice as many as had completed the program in the previous 8 years. In 1943 there were 20,842 graduates; 1944, 21,067; and, with then end of the war in sight, 1945 ended with 8,880 graduates. Thus in the period 1942 to 1945, the USN produced more than 2.5 times the number of pilots as the IJN. And each of those USN pilots went through a program of primary, intermediate, advanced, and, for the carrier pilots combat preparation in RAGs before heading west. New pilots were arriving for action in USN carrier squadrons with as many as 600 hours flying under their belts and as much as 200 hours of that in type.

quote:


As near as I can put together, during the course of the war the IJN trained some 24,000 pilots of all stripes. Roughly 18,900 of them, and their pre-war compatriots, were killed, either in action, training, or operationally. Over 2500 of these were killed in suicide attacks.

quote:


The CPTP/WTS program was phased out in the summer of 1944 but not before 435,165 people, including hundreds of women and African-Americans, had been taught to fly. The CPTP admirably achieved its primary mission, best expressed by the title of aviation historian Dominick Pisano's book—“To fill the skies with pilots.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: DFalcon

I may be missing it in this information but I see no accounting of replacement airgroups. There are a lot of planes entering the game through replacement groups and they should be counted. Replacement groups for the allies do not take planes from the pool so should be added to the number of planes produced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


"Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did. "


And according to Admiral Laurent’s figures quoted above, Japan will produce 45k+ aircraft in the same period. Of which 100% is front line equipment due to 100% upgradeable factories.

Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

I can provide the numbers for CHS: the totals of all Allied AC entering the game through airgroups are:


Total: 16 948

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
All aspects of US production were staggering, the game completely fails to recreate that.
Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: RETIRED

By number it seems to have been about 35%, but by value and construction costs is was less as most of the expensive 4-engined bombers went to Europe (except for the B-29's), while the great majority of Naval A/C went to the Pacific. Approximately 30% overall of the US Production Effort went to the Pacific cost-wise, though it varied from year to year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
Jim's analysis suggested a total of 49405 competitive airframes for the entire war. Is this just fighters or fighters and bombers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Ok I did it, here is the breakdown for the number of fixed factories and upgradable factories:

Start date.....Total factories.....Fixed factories.....Upgradeable factories...Months in production

Start............1656...................1316...................340.............................45
Jan42...........315....................165.....................150..............................44
Mar42...........50.....................50.......................0..................................42
Jun42...........200....................100.....................100..............................39
Jul42............90.....................90.......................0...................................38
Sep42..........30......................30......................0....................................36
Oct42..........100.....................20......................80...................................35
Dec42..........110...................110.....................0.....................................33
Jan43..........643....................393.....................250.................................32
Feb43..........150...................150......................0......................................31
Mar43..........20.....................20.......................0......................................30
Apr43..........150....................150.....................0......................................29
May43.........100....................100.....................0......................................28
Jun43..........90......................90......................0......................................27
Jul43...........754....................754....................0......................................26
Sep43..........395....................320...................75....................................24
Oct43...........55.....................55.....................0......................................23
Nov43...........300...................300...................0......................................22
Dec43...........194...................194...................0......................................21
Jan44............155...................155..................0......................................20
Mar44...........105....................30...................75....................................18
Apr44...........180....................105.................75....................................17
May44...........90.....................90...................0......................................16
Jun44............50.....................50...................0......................................15
Jul44.............50.....................50...................0......................................14
Sep44...........150...................75...................75....................................12
Dec44...........40.....................40...................0.....................................9
Jan45...........90.....................50....................0......................................8

So if we multiply fixed factories by 8 months we get 40,416 air frames. We then get another 41,925 air frames by multiplying non-fixed factories by the total number of months they are in production for a total of 82,341 allied air frames that can be considered competitive air frames at the time of their production.

Don't like the figure of 8 months? Just add or subtract 5,052 air frames by the number of months you want to change that figure by.

Of these about 60% would be US planes for a total US production of about 49,405 competative air frames for the entire game.

Edit: oops caught a mistake numbers have been slightly revised.

Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
but it is probably closer to IRL than you think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

If you want to do a plane by plane comparison YOU DO IT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.

Remember about 80% of those "produced" aircraft are going to be obsolete when they are made. I guess a better example would be to just give a multiple of 6-8 months for fixed non-upgradeable factories. That would be a lot more realistic than multiplying them by the total months in the game I guess.
Jim

quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus
(If you do more analysis, please factor in the +/- 400 planes a month via airgroups.)

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.

Remember about 80% of those "produced" aircraft are going to be obsolete when they are made. I guess a better example would be to just give a multiple of 6-8 months for fixed non-upgradeable factories. That would be a lot more realistic than multiplying them by the total months in the game I guess.
Jim

This seems to be the key "point of contention" in the discussion. Because of the game's idiotic production system, the Allies will get lots of A/C...., and a big pile of them will be useless garbage. What good is having a lot of Brewster Buffalos in the pool in 1944? Some means of deciding just when, and which A/C should be considered "superflous junk" in the totals needs to be arrived at if this matter is to be discussed intelligently. Jim's suggestion of 8 months might or might not be accurate, but it seems to be in the vacinity of the "ballpark". And given that only the Japanese were given much in the way of ability to change and improve their A/C output, 2x3 might have at least gotten the allied production closer to the correct numbers and types arriving at any one time. Calling one another "fanboys" won't solve the basic problem of getting the numbers right.

quote:

Naval Aviation now numbered
41,000 aircraft, 60,000 pilots,
33,000 nonpilot officers, and almost
338,000 enlisted personnel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus
(If you do more analysis, please factor in the +/- 400 planes a month via airgroups.)

I just looked at the Allied Air Unit Reinforcement Schedule. I see only two months in which the Allies get more than around 200 planes. Most months its less than 100.

Quite frankly the numbers of planes the Allies get in their Reinforcement units are a drop in the bucket. They are not a significant factor.