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RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 12:10:17 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Hi, OK for about the 1000th time. REMOVE ALL THE RD FACTORIES AT START AND SET THEM TO SIZE 0!!!!!! Now the Japanese player will not reach production numbers anywhere near those posted. I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories. (EARLY 2003!!!)

I for one do not touch RD factories unless it is to convert them to production of an available aircraft (which in effect resets it to zero). And even then I do it very sparingly. My whole goal is a slow but steady expansion thats keep my HI pool as high as possible.

In my PBEM, it is June 42 and I doubt that I have expanded total aircraft production of certain models by more than 25 percent from the start. I turn off many factories that produce aircraft for which I have minimal need such as the Pete. I think I have one producing at the rate of about 10 a month. Some of those factories have been or will be converted to fighter production (I like to have a lot of smaller factories rather than 1 or 2 big ones for dispersal reasons). I haven't as yet touched bomber factories though I will need to later.

I generally like to attain a production rate of about 125% above my needs. I calculate my needs by determining how many squadrons are due to arrive in the next 6 months and by estimating losses for the same period. That way I slowly build a pool of replacements that will provide a small cushion in case the allies get uppity yet I won't have so many in the pool that I can't ever use them when a new type comes out. I also turn off factories when the pool has a decent level.

I think my logistics plan mirrors Mogami's pretty close though we have differing operational strategies.

Chez

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Post #: 151

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 1:54:53 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Hi, OK for about the 1000th time. REMOVE ALL THE RD FACTORIES AT START AND SET THEM TO SIZE 0!!!!!! Now the Japanese player will not reach production numbers anywhere near those posted. I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories. (EARLY 2003!!!)

I for one do not touch RD factories unless it is to convert them to production of an available aircraft

I'm not even reading the rest of your post because this right here is EXACTLY what Mogami is telling NOT TO DO!

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Post #: 152

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 2:13:52 AM

ChezDaJez

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The point was that I don't increase RD but I do convert many of them to other aircraft.

Chez

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Post #: 153

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 2:17:47 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

The point was that I don't increase RD but I do convert many of them to other aircraft.

Chez

Which is EXACTLY WHAT HE'S SAYING IS THE PROBLEM!!!! Those R&D factories shouldn't exist. The ONLY reason they exist in the game is for the AI. They were not intended to be available for the player to use to build more planes with!

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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Post #: 154

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 2:36:48 AM

pompack

Posts: 2582
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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

� I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories.� (EARLY 2003!!!)

It/s a little difficult to grasp what Mog is saying

but I think he is saying

keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories

This probably is intended to mean, don't increase them, don't change them to another a/c, and don't get dog hair on the screen.

His real solution is a mod that zeros their production maximum, but if you are playing stock or the usual mods people should
keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories

At least I think that's what he said

(in reply to mogami)

Post #: 155

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 2:37:41 AM

Nikademus

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Rather than shouting at each other, there's a ready made scenario available that mostly eliminates RD and consolidates mini factories in order to reduce the ability to expand RD and existing production at the same time. Some people i've talked too feel its unnecessary, others such some on this thread have stated, feel it is. I'd like to get some comparisons from players.

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Post #: 156

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 3:21:04 AM

dtravel

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Nah, I'd rather yell at Chez.

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Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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Post #: 157

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 3:27:59 AM

mogami

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Hi, do not touch the RD facotries in stock scenarios. resetting them to available aircraft does not reset them to 0 (changing 100 RD factories results in 90 production factories-thats a free 90,000 points worth of production. If you want to use that factory modifiy the scenario and set them to 0. Now spend 90,000 supply to get 90 points of factory (that still need to spend supply and time to repair before they produce) (when you change RD you only need to spend the repair supply and repair time Japan gets 33 percent more production in 90 days at no cost. To build this actual production should cost 500,000+ supply and then still require the repair supply and repair time. Understand?

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Post #: 158

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 3:39:43 AM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

� Nah, I'd rather yell at Chez.�

ok.

never hurts to try. Pray, continue...

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Post #: 159

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 3:41:29 AM

mogami

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"I for one do not touch RD factories unless it is to convert them to production of an available aircraft (which in effect resets it to zero)."

Hi, when I read that I realized I had failed to make my point.

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Post #: 160

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 4:00:29 AM

Nikademus

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on this board??!

GET OUTTA TOWN!

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Post #: 161

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 4:06:22 AM

denisonh

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Not only out of town, but deploy to Iraq........

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Post #: 162

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 5:29:37 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Nah, I'd rather yell at Chez.

Ooooh, beat me, beat me... yeah, that's it... harder!

Chez

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Post #: 163

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 5:38:44 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

resetting them to available aircraft does not reset them to 0 (changing 100 RD factories results in 90 production factories-

Actually it doesn't. Anytime you change a factory from one type aircraft to another, it ALWAYS resets to zero and you have to build it up. Doesn't matter whether its a RD factory or any other.

Besides RD factories start at zero to begin with. So you don't need to edit anything.

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 8/25/2006 6:28:01 AM >

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Post #: 164

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 5:43:15 AM

FeurerKrieg

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No, the only go down a bit. They are all damaged, but that is not the point.

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Post #: 165

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 5:59:35 AM

ChezDaJez

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Here is a screenshot from my stock scenario 15 PBEM with Andy. Date is 12/7/42. Note the Ki-43-III RD factory. Its starting at ZERO!

That means you have to expend points to build it up.

Chez

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 166

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 6:03:06 AM

ChezDaJez

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Now here is the same screen 2 weeks later 12/21/41). As you can see, the factory is repairing which costs points.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 8/25/2006 6:10:12 AM >

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Post #: 167

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 6:09:43 AM

ChezDaJez

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Mogami said:

quote:

Hi, do not touch the RD facotries in stock scenarios. resetting them to available aircraft does not reset them to 0 (changing 100 RD factories results in 90 production factories-thats a free 90,000 points worth of production. If you want to use that factory modifiy the scenario and set them to 0. Now spend 90,000 supply to get 90 points of factory (that still need to spend supply and time to repair before they produce) (when you change RD you only need to spend the repair supply and repair time Japan gets 33 percent more production in 90 days at no cost. To build this actual production should cost 500,000+ supply and then still require the repair supply and repair time. Understand?

Now here is the same shot after the factory has been converted to A6M2s. The date is still 12/21/41. Not only is it totally damaged but it also only 70% of its original size.

Where you guys got that 90% figure I haven't a clue. Anytime you reset a factory to another aircraft type, RD or otherwise, it becomes 100% damaged and 30% smaller. No need to go into the editor, no need to pay 90,000 points, no need to do anything other than convert it. Understand?

Ches

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 8/25/2006 6:30:35 AM >

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Post #: 168

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 6:33:40 AM

mogami

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Hi, It is not 0 it is 83 damaged. To build it from 0 you would need to spend 83,000 supply to get 83 damaged and then pay to repair All your doing is paying to repair not build.� Your repairing factories that should not be built.
By set to 0 I mean the factory would look like this (0)0 not (83) 0� do you see what I am talking about? Damaged is not 0 but will repair to 83.� 0 is 0 will repair to 0� you have to pay supply to build DAMAGED points and then repair.� If you use RD to convert to production your converting 500,000 supply points worth of factories you never built.�� Modifiey your scenario all those RD factories should be what ever aircraft you want but their starting size is (0) 0 when you then expand you get a factory like this (1)0 you repair and it looks like this (0)1 you expand and it goes to (1) 1 you repair and expand (2) 2 got it?

The way your doing it you pay 83,000 for 83 production when you should pay 166,000

A Japanese who converts all his RD gets a 33 percent increase in production for half the cost he should pay. So he is able to increase his production much sooner and much cheaper then he should. Because to build from 0 to 83 takes much longer then to expand from 83 to 166 (the next expansion for that factory.) By getting all these aircraft sooner he can engage in a much higher combat tempo in 1942 then he could without these free factories. It is a major game impact exploit.

The AI never expands factories. It never changes what they build. So these factories represent Japanese expansion. They are not there for humans to alter in any manner. They should actually be set to never build and never repair if your expanding other factories from start and changing production. The easy simple fix is to keep your hands off them or set them to (0)0 at start.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/25/2006 6:45:01 AM >

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Post #: 169

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 6:52:50 AM

ChezDaJez

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From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

Which is EXACTLY WHAT HE'S SAYING IS THE PROBLEM!!!! Those R&D factories shouldn't exist. The ONLY reason they exist in the game is for the AI. They were not intended to be available for the player to use to build more planes with!

As my screenshot proves, Mogami is wrong when it comes to RD factory conversion costs. There is no problem as converting them costs supply and HI which is what he says should be happening. I convert most of them and the whole world gets upset even though the cost of converting them is the same as expanding existing factories. Go figure.

Chez

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Post #: 170

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 6:56:05 AM

ChezDaJez

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Mogami said:

quote:

Hi, when I read that I realized I had failed to make my point.

You made your point. I just don't see the necessity of it. By changing RD factories to available aircraft you accomplish the same thing with the same costs involved.

Chez

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Post #: 171

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 7:32:26 AM

mogami

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Hi, NO No NO when you change RD you get them at Half cost.� They are disabled yes that is true but they only need to be repaired. They really should not be there at all which means toi get the same disabled factories and then repair them you need to pay twice as much. (building from 0 is twice the cost of repairing from 0)

From the top

If I have a size 0 factory and I want to produce 100xA6M2 I need to spend 200,000 supply.
If I convert RD factories I convert 130 (getting 100 disabled) and then I repair for a cost of 100,000. I just saved 100,000 supply. I saved the 100,000 by converting factories that in reality do not exist for me to convert in the first place. They are there to simulate the AI doing the expansion that it otherwise will not do. (It cheats and gets them at half cost)

If I convert all my RD facotries I get actual aircraft production at half price. and thus I am ahead of where I should be in aircraft production. Now I can upgrade all my obsolete groups and this will make a major impact at the front. (I will have 12 A6M2 daitai when actual Japan only had 6 I will upgrade my Nate to Oscar (and with PDU Tony/Tojo and other types) I should be stuck with Nates into 1944 but instead will have better aircraft all over the map. My modern aircraft will out number the Allied player. If I then also use the miricle training methods I turn Japan into a super power. (And then I can play all the exciting conquer the map games)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/25/2006 7:40:40 AM >

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Post #: 172

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 7:40:23 AM

DFalcon

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I am pretty sure the cost to expand a factory (there by getting a damaged factory) is 100 supply points. So in the above example he is getting 8,300 supply points in free expantion, not 83,000. I do not think the free 100 supply per RD factory converted is a game breaker ether way.

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Post #: 173

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 7:45:11 AM

mogami

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Hi, It also costs 1 manpower and 1 heavy industry PER POINT of expansion. (not repair) Converting RD avoids this manpower and HI cost.� (conversion is not expansion)
You are correct it only costs 100 supply per point for expansion. However this is still a major savings early in war. And don't forget this conversion is factories that should be removed from game at start if player is going to alter them.

To build 600 points from scratch
60000 supply to build plus 600 manpower and 600 HI plus supply to repair

To convert just the repair supply is required.

late 1943 I am producing 1650 ac per month (Japan is producing 687 on Dec 7 1941)
another player is building 5500 per month. (because he converted the RD early on and used the savings to expand the others)

what I am mainly concerned about is impact during 1942. I think if I really tried I could increase production of VITAL aircraft types using normal means. I doubt I'd ever even bother trying to build 5500 per month since my on map totals are less then that. (I don't see any sense in having more aircraft in pool then I can place on map)

If none of this bothers you then....never mind

< Message edited by Mogami -- 8/25/2006 7:56:12 AM >

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Post #: 174

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 7:46:44 AM

bradfordkay

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But doesn't he also get it in half the time? Doesn't it take a day per point built or repaired? Or does he just get it one day faster (built one day, repaired the next while a new one is building)?

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Post #: 175

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 7:57:40 AM

mogami

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Hi, when you expand you get all the new factories that instant. (they are disabled and then require repair)

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Post #: 176

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 8:07:43 AM

ChezDaJez

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quote:

Hi, NO No NO when you change RD you get them at Half cost. They are disabled yes that is true but they only need to be repaired. They really should not be there at all which means toi get the same disabled factories and then repair them you need to pay twice as much. (building from 0 is twice the cost of repairing from 0)

Ok, maybe I'm dense here but I'm not following real easy here. I'm not understanding where the "twice the cost factor" comes from.

Take my example here:

I have two factories. One is an RD factory with 10 production units. I convert the RD factory to Zero. It now has 10 disabled units.

The other is a A6M2 factory with 10 production units. I expand it to 20 resulting in 10 disabled units and 10 production units.

Does it not cost the same 10,000 supply to repair each set of disabled units?

The only way I can understand your position is if you think that the player should pay the initial building cost it would have taken if players were being charged to build factories instead of expanding them. And then charge them a "repair" fee on top of that. That's the part I don't understand if I follow you. Why should a player pay to build a factory when he doesn't have to pay for other existing ones? Why should he pay to repair a brand new building? When you "build" a new factory, you shouldn't be spending points to repair it. It should come on line when completed.

If WitP factory locations were accurate and of the right size, I might agree with you. However, as I have to pay the same amount of supply whether I convert an RD factory or expand an existing one by the same size, I just don't see any difference.

Chez

EDIT: You've posted a couple of times while I was typing this. I think I'm starting to see where you are at. Not sure yet that I agree but I'm going to look at it some more.

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 8/25/2006 8:09:50 AM >

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Post #: 177

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 8:08:45 AM

bradfordkay

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Okay, in Chez' screencaps I noticed that he's getting less than one point repaired per day. Can you also have an industry point created on the same day that one is repaired?

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Post #: 178

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 8:14:23 AM

bradfordkay

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Chez, what he is saying is that when you build a factory point, it arrives disabled. You then have to repair it. When you change one of the games initial RD factory points, you don't have to spend the cost of creating that. Since both of them, new factory points and RD ones, require repair, changing these fictional RD factories is being done a half the actual price.

EDIT: your editted addition came as I was typing this... things are moving faster than usual on the board tonight...

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 8/25/2006 8:15:19 AM >

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Post #: 179

RE: Allied aircraft production figures - 8/25/2006 9:09:27 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

quote:

Hi, NO No NO when you change RD you get them at Half cost. They are disabled yes that is true but they only need to be repaired. They really should not be there at all which means toi get the same disabled factories and then repair them you need to pay twice as much. (building from 0 is twice the cost of repairing from 0)

Ok, maybe I'm dense here but I'm not following real easy here. I'm not understanding where the "twice the cost factor" comes from.

Take my example here:

I have two factories. One is an RD factory with 10 production units. I convert the RD factory to Zero. It now has 10 disabled units.

The other is a A6M2 factory with 10 production units. I expand it to 20 resulting in 10 disabled units and 10 production units.

Does it not cost the same 10,000 supply to repair each set of disabled units?

PLUS what it cost to expand that A6M2 factory.

If you expand, you have to pay to do the expansion PLUS then pay more to "repair" those new factories.

If you convert R&D factories, all you have to pay is to "repair" the factories.

See the difference now?

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 180

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