RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions

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RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 9/28/2006 3:16:39 PM

terje439

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ah you people want more ships to look up?
Sure I can do that

Todays topic: The Imperial Japanese Navy
Carriers to be specific.

The CV Ryujo's armor thickness
The CV Unryu's armor thickness
The CV Amagi's armor thuckness
The CV Katsuragi's armor thickness

And then to make it even more interesting;

Do anyone know anything about the carriers Fuji (only IJN Fuji I found was an old BB), Shikishima (only found an old BB), Karyu (found nothing at all), Meiji (found nothing at all), and Showa (found nothing at all).

(in reply to lordzyplon)

Post #: 31

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 9/28/2006 4:07:45 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
Todays topic: The Imperial Japanese Navy
Carriers to be specific.

The CV Unryu's armor thickness
The CV Amagi's armor thuckness
The CV Katsuragi's armor thickness

All three are from the same CV class, and have armor as follow :
Max Belt : 5.9 inches.
Max Deck : 2,2 inches.

quote:

Do anyone know anything about the carriers Fuji (only IJN Fuji I found was an old BB), Shikishima (only found an old BB), Karyu (found nothing at all), Meiji (found nothing at all), and Showa (found nothing at all).

Karyu is the same class as the Shinano, and the same kind of BB conversion.
Shinano BB and Karyu BB were layed down in 1940, cancelled in 1942, 63,000 tons, 263 m length, speed 27 kts, max belt armor 15,75 inches, max deck armor 7,48 inches, 2,500 men, same armament as the Yamato (9 x 18.1 inch guns and 6 x 6.1 inch guns). I doubt that the armor and armament would have been the same for the Carrier version, need to look at the Shinano to know.

Shinano CV is 62,000 tons, 266 m length, 27 knots speed, max belt armor 8.1 inches, max deck armor 10.6 inches, 2,400 men, 12 x 5 inches guns.
Karyu would have been the same.

I suppose that Meiji & Showa are conversion from Super BB hulls that were layed down as BBs, but were projected to be converted into CVs, like the Shinano was for example.

Fuji and Shikishima I know nothing about. I'll look at my book tonight.

(in reply to terje439)

Post #: 32

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 9/28/2006 7:55:16 PM

Mziln

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Click this link: The�C-220 Shikishima design was for a 12'' gun crusier

< Message edited by Mziln -- 9/28/2006 8:02:33 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 9/28/2006 10:56:54 PM

Froonp

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quote:

Shinano CV is 62,000 tons, 266 m length, 27 knots speed, max belt armor 8.1 inches, max deck armor 10.6 inches, 2,400 men, 12 x 5 inches guns.
Karyu would have been the same.

The "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day" has it different for the Deck Armor.
It says :
Flight Deck 3 inches.
Hangar Deck : 7.5 inches.

The 10.6 inches mentionned above must have been the sum of both.

It also says that the Shinano was layed down as the 3rd Yamato Class BB, halted in December 1941, and restarted in June 1942 after the Midway Battle.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 34

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 9/28/2006 11:12:17 PM

Froonp

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quote:

Karyu is the same class as the Shinano, and the same kind of BB conversion.
Shinano BB and Karyu BB were layed down in 1940, cancelled in 1942, 63,000 tons, 263 m length, speed 27 kts, max belt armor 15,75 inches, max deck armor 7,48 inches, 2,500 men, same armament as the Yamato (9 x 18.1 inch guns and 6 x 6.1 inch guns). I doubt that the armor and armament would have been the same for the Carrier version, need to look at the Shinano to know.

The "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day" gives more details :
Karyu is the 4th Yamato Class BB laid down. It was never officialy named and was only ever known as "hull 111". It was scrapped in 1942 when only 30% complete.

It also talks about 3 more BBs, one numbered No 797, a standard Yamato class, and No 798 & 799 which would have mounted 6 x 20 inches guns (508 mm).
I think that the first is the Suma.
I think that the first of the 20 inches gun equipped BBs would have been the Hizen.

Both those assumptions are based on ADG data published in the SiF rulebook.

I find nothing about the CV Fuji, CV Shikishima, CV Meiji and CV Showa. Given they are from 1943, 1944 and 1945, I guess that even the Japanese know nothing of those. The latest CV they dreamt about was the Shinano.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 35

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 9/28/2006 11:23:34 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Click this link: The�C-220 Shikishima design was for a 12'' gun crusier

Maybe the Fuji and Shikishima are CV convertion from these Cruisers.
Example of Class 4 carriers made from Cruisers are known in the US CVs already.
I did not know this Japanese CA Class. I think that this is a fictional CA class that never saw any ship built.

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 36

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 1:32:07 AM

Froonp

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So what, terje439, no more query about ships ????

Have you got all you need ?

Anyway, thanks for this

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 37

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 4:09:21 AM

Greyshaft

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

So what, terje439, no more query about ships ????

That reminds me... I've still got another sixteen air units to do

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/Greyshaft

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Post #: 38

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 4:30:53 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

So what, terje439, no more query about ships ????

That reminds me... I've still got another sixteen air units to do

It might be more than 16. There are the lend lease air units too. However, most of those already have writeups elsewhere. I have not transferred them over yet because I would like your approval before doing that.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 39

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 6:50:14 AM

Greyshaft

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OK.
Some lend-lease info is already included in the standard descriptions but I'm happy to re-examine the existing write-ups and split that data out for the appropriate counters.

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Post #: 40

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 4:14:53 PM

terje439

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Oh, you guys want more?! My bad

(been busy in RL sorry for the delay

)

We will continue with Japan then;
-IJN Suma (BB). Is this one of the two incomplete Yamato-hulls?
-IJN Karyu (BB). Is this the last incomplete Yamato-hull?
-IJN Hizen (BB). The only site I found was in Japanese, and the ships stats did not compute with a turn of the century BB. Anyone know what this is?
-IJN Unebi (BB). Only IJN Unebi I found was a sailing vessel. (too preserve fuel maybe

)

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 41

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 9:56:57 PM

Froonp

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quote:

-IJN Karyu (BB). Is this the last incomplete Yamato-hull?

Look at post #32 and #35 for answer about this one. I already typed it there

.

Well, here is it again, all sum-up for you here :
**********************************
Shinano BB and Karyu BB were layed down in 1940, cancelled in 1942, 63,000 tons, 263 m length, speed 27 kts, max belt armor 15,75 inches, max deck armor 7,48 inches, 2,500 men, same armament as the Yamato (9 x 18.1 inch guns and 6 x 6.1 inch guns).

The "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day" gives more details :
Karyu is the 4th Yamato Class BB laid down. It was never officialy named and was only ever known as "hull 111". It was scrapped in 1942 when only 30% complete.

It also talks about 3 more BBs, one numbered No 797, a standard Yamato class, and No 798 & 799 which would have mounted 6 x 20 inches guns (508 mm).
I think that the first is the Suma.
I think that the first of the 20 inches gun equipped BBs would have been the Hizen.

Both those assumptions are based on ADG data published in the SiF rulebook.
**********************************

Unebi (1942) seems to be the sister ship of Seiki (1943), because they have identical game characteristics. Both seems to be BattleCruisers (BC) rather than pure BB (from their characteristics). Kind of Alaska BC Japanese Counterpart.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/7/2006 9:59:48 PM >

(in reply to terje439)

Post #: 42

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/7/2006 10:50:37 PM

Mziln

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http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/s_xt01.htm

The Yamato class BB originally planned for 5 ships: Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Hull No.111, and Hull No.797

They were named after states of traditional age. Yamato is now Nara prefecture, the capital in ancient era (before eighth century) resided there. Musashi insists of Tokyo Metropolis, Saitama prefecture, and a part of Kanagawa prefecture nowadays. Shinano is now Nagano prefecture, known as the area where the winter Olympic game had been held in 1998.

The name Suma comes from a geographic location near Kobe, in Hyogo prefecture.
Karyu translates to Fire Dragon (see: Ki-201 Karyu �Fire Dragon�)
Hizen was a province in Japan (and was a captured Russian ship considered a battlecruiser by the Japanese)
Unebi is a mountuntain in Yamato province (translated from a Dutch site http://www.uchiyama.nl/ngsiteindexi.htm)

So if they were to follow the naming convention Suma and Hizen could be Hull No.111, and Hull No.797.

No.798 type battleships Displacement: approx. 70,000t normal Speed: 27kt Armament: 6-51cm gun

Just a FYI on the 12 inch gun crusier

The Super Type A Cruiser was planned by the Imperial Japanese Navy in response to the American Alaska class large cruiser. Two ships, designated Hull Numbers 795 & 796, were planned under the 1942 Program. A rough plan, Project 64, was for a ship of similar size and armament to the Alaska class, with nine 12-inch guns in three triple turrets. Project 65, the last basic design, was for a larger ship of about 31,000 standard tons displacement armed with nine 14-inch guns. The secondary armament was to consist of sixteen of the new 100mm dual-purpose guns. Eight 24-inch torpedo tubes were featured in Project 64, but no torpedoes were included in Project 65. Maximum speed was to be 33 knots. Project 65 was Japan's last design for a large, gun-armed warship.

Although planning for these ships reached a more advanced stage than the Super Yamato class battleships, no orders were ever placed with Japanese contractors. After the Battle of Midway construction of all Japanese warships except carriers, destroyers & submarines was reduced to the lowest priority.

http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Japanese-ship-naming-conventions.html

World War II
During World War II a fairly complete system was put in place for the naming of ships. The broad categories of names given are:

Aircraft carriers (pre-1943) - Mythical animals/birds
Aircraft carriers (post-1943) - Country/mountain names
Battleships - Country/province names
Battlecruisers and Heavy cruisers - Mountain names
Light cruisers - River names
Training cruisers (post-1940) - Shinto shrine names
Heavy and light destroyer Destroyers - Meteorological names
Light destroyers - Plant names or Meteorological names
Torpedo boats - Bird names
Submarines - Numbers
Submarine tenders - Whale names
Escorts - (post-1940) - Island names
Destroyer Type A (post-1943) - Water (rain, tides, currents) or plant names
Destroyer Type B (post-1943) - Moon, wind, clouds, seasons

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/8/2006 12:02:56 AM >

(in reply to terje439)

Post #: 43

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 12:00:26 AM

Froonp

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quote:

So if they were to follow the naming convention Suma and Hizen could be Hull No.111, and Hull No.797.

ADG data in SiF has it that hull 111 is BB Karyu.
My take is that Suma is Hull 797, and Hizen is Hull 798, the BB equipped with 6 x 20in guns.

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 44

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 12:04:25 AM

Mziln

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Well since we are working with mythical ships. I dont see a problem if it breaks the ship naming rules

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/8/2006 12:11:58 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 12:08:03 AM

Froonp

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quote:

The Super Type A Cruiser was planned by the Imperial Japanese Navy in response to the American Alaska class large cruiser. Two ships, designated Hull Numbers 795 & 796, were planned under the 1942 Program. A rough plan, Project 64, was for a ship of similar size and armament to the Alaska class, with nine 12-inch guns in three triple turrets. Project 65, the last basic design, was for a larger ship of about 31,000 standard tons displacement armed with nine 14-inch guns. The secondary armament was to consist of sixteen of the new 100mm dual-purpose guns. Eight 24-inch torpedo tubes were featured in Project 64, but no torpedoes were included in Project 65. Maximum speed was to be 33 knots. Project 65 was Japan's last design for a large, gun-armed warship.

Although planning for these ships reached a more advanced stage than the Super Yamato class battleships, no orders were ever placed with Japanese contractors. After the Battle of Midway construction of all Japanese warships except carriers, destroyers & submarines was reduced to the lowest priority.

Also :

ADG Data about those is the following :
BC Unebi (B-64) was ordered in November 1942, never built, 35,000 tons, 244.6 m long, 33 knots, 8,000 nm at 18 knots, 8 in Belt Armor, 5 in Deck Armor, 8 in Turret Armor, 1,500 men, 9 x 360 mm guns, 16 x 99 mm guns, 12 x 25 mm AA guns, 8 x 13.2 mm AA guns, 8 torpedo tubes of 24 in, 3 aircrafts.

BC Seiki (B-65) was cancelled in 1942, 34,400 tons, 246.2 m long, 34 knots, the rest same as Unebi.

Edit : This is B-65, not B-66.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/8/2006 12:31:53 AM >

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 46

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 12:14:53 AM

Mziln

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360 mm / 25 = approx 14 inch guns

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Post #: 47

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 12:28:26 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
360 mm / 25 = approx 14 inch guns

Yes, I know we are saying the same thing here, I just wanted to complete what you wrote.

360 mm / 25.4 mm = 14,173228346456692913385826771654 inch guns

I suppose the guns are 14 inches in real, so the 360 mm must be an approximation, so the right caliber must be 355 mm.

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 48

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:19:17 AM

Mziln

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You meen "gun size" not "caliber".

100 caliber = 1 inch or 25.4 mm

360 millimeters = 14.173228 inches
360 millimeters = 1417.3228 caliber

So the right gun size must be 355 mm.

http://www.infoplease.com/pages/unitconversion.html?qty=356&fromopts=millimeter&toopts=inch&unittype=linear&grp=&convert.x=30&convert.y=7

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/8/2006 1:23:54 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:26:42 AM

Jeff Gilbert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
You meen "gun size" not "caliber".
100 caliber = 1 inch or 25.4 mm

Um, not to nit pick but I thought 1.00 caliber = 1 inch when speaking of bore size.
Example: .50 cal Machine Gun shoots a half-inch around projectile.

When speaking of naval guns, caliber is the multiple of bore size giving you the lenght of the barrel.
Example: the BB Ohio carried 16" x 50 caliber guns. Length of barrel was 800" or 66.6'

< Message edited by Jeff Gilbert -- 10/8/2006 1:32:02 AM >

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(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 50

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:30:13 AM

Mziln

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50 calibers = 0.5 inch
7.62 millimeters = 30 calibers

check the site link above

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/8/2006 1:33:05 AM >

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Post #: 51

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:38:22 AM

Jeff Gilbert

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Sorry, this site is wrong.

To convert from calibers to:
inches, multiply by 0.01.
millimeters, multiply by 0.254

Gunsmith sites are a bit better for this conversion.

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Palm Harbor, Florida, USA

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 52

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:46:56 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Gilbert

Sorry, this site is wrong.

To convert from calibers to:
inches, multiply by 0.01.
millimeters, multiply by 0.254

Gunsmith sites are a bit better for this conversion.

Mziln's numbers match your precisely.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Jeff Gilbert)

Post #: 53

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:52:57 AM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Gilbert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
You meen "gun size" not "caliber".
100 caliber = 1 inch or 25.4 mm

Um, not to nit pick but I thought 1.00 caliber = 1 inch when speaking of bore size.
Example: .50 cal Machine Gun shoots a half-inch around projectile.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Marrium-Websters online dictionary

2 a : the diameter of a bullet or other projectile b : the diameter of a bore of a gun usually expressed in hundredths or thousandths of an inch and typically written as a decimal fraction <.32 caliber>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you say .5 caliber or 50 caliber

< Message edited by Mziln -- 10/8/2006 1:54:11 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:53:40 AM

Jeff Gilbert

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Hmmm ...
I believe Mlzin's says:
50 calibers = 0.5 inches
I contend,
.50 caliber = 0.5 inches

That's a 2 decimal place difference or, did I miss something?

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 55

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:57:07 AM

Jeff Gilbert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Do you say .5 caliber or 50 caliber

What you say or how it should be written?

< Message edited by Jeff Gilbert -- 10/8/2006 1:58:52 AM >

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(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 56

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 2:09:33 AM

Mziln

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I say either way works as long as the coversion is correct. I have seen it used both ways.

I say 50 caliber - Fifty caliber

You say .50 cal - Fifty caliber

But common mathmatical usage of fractions says to drop unnecessary zeros.

So you should be saying: point five caliber or pont five zero caliber. Or is the decimal point silent

(in reply to Jeff Gilbert)

Post #: 57

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 6:25:56 AM

Jeff Gilbert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
I say either way works as long as the coversion is correct. I have seen it used both ways.
I say 50 caliber - Fifty caliber
You say .50 cal - Fifty caliber

The conversion will not be correct if it is 2 decimal places off.

quote:

But common mathmatical usage of fractions says to drop unnecessary zeros.
So you should be saying: point five caliber or pont five zero caliber. Or is the decimal point silent

Again, spoken vs writen.

Now, considering this is naval guns we should be talking about, the point is moot as caliber does not mean the same thing in ship gun terms. [See Post 50 this thread]

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Post #: 58

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 1:06:43 PM

Incy

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About time to go metric ?

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Post #: 59

RE: Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions - 10/8/2006 4:05:13 PM

Mziln

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And when dealing with naval guns and calibers the decimal point is usualy dropped as in 3"/50 (76.2 mm/50 a destroyer gun) or 460 mm L/45 (18.1"/45 a battleship gun).